I'm going to give in and get a set of 190's in about two weeks. I'm sick of thinking about how I didn't get them the first time and I won't be happy until I do. I know everything I need for my application, but I forgot to ask the AFR rep about my rockers. I pretty much wanted to save myself the long distace call. I have the 3/8 stud GMPP (Crane Gold) 1.6 ratio roller rockers that are self-aligned. Do I need to order the heads w/o guideplates and do the AFR's come with an option for 3/8 inch studs? Also, I would like to know what kind of est. perf. gain I would get swithing to these heads? Right now I'm running a 13.5 at 102 on drag radials with a crap chip and no tuning.

 

not sure about the guideplates but i they do come with 3/8 studs in them.

 

http://www.airflowresearch.com
http://www.martelbros.com
Check out his link, it has info on AFR heads. I have been waiting 3 1/2 weeks so far for my AFR195's. I was told AFR makes them to order & has a 3-4 week lead time. I will be using Harland Sharpe 1.6 ratio 3/8" stud rockers. 7/16" studs are an extra cost option. You will need hardened pushrods & std non self aligning rockers, for the AFR's use guideplates.

 

If you intend to run with self-guided rockers then you NEED to tell them so that they replace the guideplates with hardened washers of the same thickness. You don't want to run guideplates with the stock pushrods because the stock pushrods are NOT hardened and the hardened guideplates will chew them up.

HOWEVER - I wouldn't get the guideplates replaced with washers. Your BEST bet is to order the heads optioned with 7/16" studs and the guideplates. Order a set of standard 7/16" roller rockers (Comp ProMagnums) and a set of 7.200" hardened pushrods (Trick Flow Chromoly are the best bang for the buck). The 7/16" studs will give you a much more stable valvetrain and the hardened pushrods won't bend under severe duty performance events.

Tim

 

Thanks for the info guys. I'd hate to think that if I kept my current rocker-style and stock pushrod setup and put it on new AFR heads that I might have an unstable valvetrain. I know guideplates are the way to go, I'm just mad because I just got these self-aligned rockers about two months ago and I really don't want to mess around with getting new ones and selling these. I just wanna make sure I make the right decision. Maybe I'll just swap in a 6-speed for my next mod and put off the head upgrade until next summer after I think about it more. Any more advice would be appreciated.

 

They don't mean that it will be unstable, as in breaking stuff and causing problems. Just that for higher rpms and more "extreme" conditions, the guideplates and 7/16 studs are better.
I run the 3/8 on my AFRs with no problems.
You'll be fine with self centering RRs without guideplates. With the SR setup you have you won't be revving too high.
Like Trax said though, make sure AFR knows that way they put those washers on the heads instead of guideplates, otherwise you'll have to switch that yourself on your dollar.
I would also replace the pushrods anyways if they are indeed stock, with whichever way you go, it won't cost you too much.

 

'87FAKE-IROC-Z,

Thanks for the advice. What kind of difference did you see in times with just the head change and what were your old heads? I'll probably do the heads now instead of the trans swap which would be more difficult. Does anybody else have an estimate of the gain in trap speed I may see in the 1/4 going to AFR's? Right now my vette heads have untouched combustion chambers, mildly ported intake runners, they're matched to my intake gasket, and just polishing on the exhaust side.

 

This will be kinda long.
My setup was a 10.2:1 357 with ported and polished aluminum L98s also, SuperRam, a 210/220 Comp cam with about .510 lift with 1.6 RRs, TES headers and a Ed wright chip. I never got the best out of this setup because the engine hydro-locked in a bad flood. The best I did was a 13.7@101.
I built another engine. Another 10.2:1 357 with out of the box AFR 190s, the same SuperRam, and a LT4 hot cam. Same TES headers, RRs, and the chip for the last engine is stilll being used.
I have run a best of 13.1@105 with this combo.
It doesn't sound like much of an improvement, but I got that 13.7 at another track that traps 3 mph faster than the one where I got the 13.1 with the new motor. So the difference is about 7 mph instead of just 4.
That's about a 70 horse increase.
My old combo, and your current setup should be capable of around 104-105 when running good. And My new combo, nearly identical to what you will have is capable of over 110 as proven by many others, but not with the hot cam, and not with the TES headers unless you get lucky.
A much better exhaust is needed and the hot cam just doesn't seem to be a great match for this. It is good, don't get me wrong, but I believe it is costing me alot right now.
After I switch to a better Comp cam and put 1.75 longtubes on with a bigger cat back, I am certain that with tuning I should be able to pull around 112.
So in short, I think just switching to the AFRs will get you to 105-106 like me, but much better after a cam swap and better exhaust.

 

Originally posted by '87FAKE-IROC-Z
I know there are guys in the vette forum that run the LPE 219 cam, AFR, SuperRam setup and trap up to 114 mph with a good exhaust setup. But I thought I saw a post a while back that showed that the 219 cam only made like 6-8 peak hp over the hot cam with the torque curves being nearly identical. I think the test was with a carb, but still it doesn't exactly make me want to rush out and get a new cam. If the hot cam makes almost the same power as the LPE cam which is made specifically for the superram then why go bigger? I know the LPE 219 cam has a max lift of .560" with 1.6's which is more than the hot cam and it also has less duration on the exhaust side. Maybe that matters but I don't know how a bigger cam and longtubes will give you another 8-10 mph on your traps assuming the same amount of tuning. I'm not trying to say you're wrong about the hot cam or that I know anything, but I do know I will be getting the AFR's as soon as my loan goes through. Thanks again for the info, 87Fake.

 

For me to get to 112, I only need 7 mph. Right now, the car has gone 105 with very little tuning and could go 106 on a good night. I'm still using my old chip also.
I feel that if I go to longtubes, free up the intake with a larger MAF, and get a chip done for this particular setup, and have it running at it's potential it can do 110 with the hot cam, but not much more if any. That's 50 hp from now. From how restrictive TES headers are, and that my high rpm fuel mapping is off, that is easilly doable with those mods.
Like I said, I'm not bashing the hot cam, hell I bought one too. It has worked great with no problems. I think that when all is said and done, it will cost me 20-30 hp compared to something better. I'm not going to use the 219 cam, although it is great. I am looking at a Comp grind that others have had great success with on this very setup, and it will cost much less.
I've also seen many guys running 110-114 with the 219 cam, but not any near as close with a hot cam, myself included. In most cases they don't run the hot cam with these setups.
It has been my experience that it is one of those things that looks great on paper (6-8 hp less), but in the real world there isn't enough evidence of it.
Also, in the test, if it was done with a carb, that is a far cry from a SuperRam engine. The 219 cam was not designed for carb, but for the SuperRam. It was prbobly a single plane setup for high rpm hp. the hot cam is better for that as it is designed for an anti-tuned engine (short runner). In a SuperRam, we need more mid range, that is where it shines. With the longer runners, a matched cam becomes very important in order to keep the timing events matched with the intake's power band.
So, I'm not telling you to ditch the hot cam. You may have great success with it, and I hope you do. just sooner or later, you can get more out of the setup with something better suited to it.
I'll find out soon enough if any of this holds water! Later
Paul

 

'87FAKE-IROC-Z,

Not trying to drag this post on or anything but I just wanted to get a few things clarified for me. You said you're trapping 105 right now. Is that at the track that shows 3 mph higher than the other track, meaning that with your old setup you ran a 98 trap speed at this same track? If that's the case the track where you ran a 13.7 at 101 would put your car at 108 mph with your current setup at the track that shows higher trap speeds. Is that right? If so that is an awesome improvement from just upgrading heads and a little bit bigger cam.

What you said makes sense about the hot cam and the 219 cam and which intake these cams like. I'm almost tempted to sell my FI setup and go to carb even though I'll give up around 4 mpg. I just remembered that I failed to realize in my last post that the corvettes that run the LPE cam, Superram, AFR setup and trap 114 mph are a few hundred pounds less than our cars, which means your theories about getting traps speed of 110-112 with a cam and exhaust upgrade make perfect sense. Anyway I'll be ordering the heads next week from a local Firestone shop. The guy there is cool he builds all kinds engines from street engines to 9 sec N/A all out race engines. He said the total will be about $1,560 for everything and the other good part is that it will only take four days to recieve the heads after he orders them. Supposedly he makes a lot of orders through AFR's and he even told me that on my engine they would be right around a 50 hp gain. If anyone wants his info send me a private message, my e-mail's not exactly working right now.

 

No problem, its not dragging, this is good stuff.
Yeah, that is exactly right. If I were to run the current setup at the other track it would trap 108 the way it is. So over the previous setup it is a 7 mph increase, or about 70 hp.
I don't run there anymore so I havn't actually done that. With the last engine I would run consistant 101 at that track, and consistant 98 at the track I go to now, which I am trapping 105 at now, same 7 mph difference.
The last setup was pretty weak in particular, it should not be compared to average aluminum L98 headed SuperRam engines. I am running 95 mph in my nearly bone stock '92 compared to the 98 with all the crap on that engine. It ran fine, but just didn't make the power it should have, I never was able to get more out of it cause it locked.
Your's seems to be running beter than mine with your 102 trap speeds, and sounds like there is some more in there.
Don't ditch the FI, there is nothing cooler than really fast FI thirdgens. Because you already have the FI stuff anyways (and the good stuff to boot!), it will be more of a hassle to switch. 190's + SuperRam=:hail:
Let me know if you need anything else. later
paul