:hail: :hail: :hail:

so many fast cars, i'm jealous

all i want is enough HP to get me out of the 14s!

 

You can do A LOT with torque. I know of several sub-350rwhp cars of normal weight that are in the 11's (standard weight). You just gotta be able to hook up all that torque. Don't get me wrong - you NEED horsepower. You can't get a 550lb/ft diesel motor to run 11's in a thirdgen. But, there is a window of opportunity where you can exchange torque and horsepower (in a normal weight thirdgen) and run the same times. You just have to plan your car accordingly. If your focus is torque then you better be running some very sticky tires, and be prepared with a 12-bolt or 9" rearend if you are running a manual. If your focus is horsepower then be prepared to rev that motor high. Running an 11 with a manual in a LTR setup is going to be very very difficult. Every naturally aspirated 350 LTR setup in the 11's I have seen was an automatic.

The one thing I do disagree on is that more horsepower is less streetable as compared to more torque. I think that it is the other way around. The more torque you have the easier it is to break the tires loose. Exchanging torque for horsepower allows you to keep the tires planted and pull harder on the topend. This is great for the street.

... I honestly think that you can have your cake and eat it too. I just need to get to the dyno to provide some proof.

Tim

 

This is very interesting. I'd love to see someone dyno 350RWHP with a 350/355ci LTR motor. I for one think it is possible. On my old motor (exact same as my current one except that it wasn't balanced) I dyno'd:

275RWHP/330RWTQ


*Now that might not seem to great, but my motor was a completely stock from pan to TB except for this:
-LT4 hotcam
-TPIS ZZ9 valve springs
-gasket matched L98 iron heads
-ported/polished/siamesed STOCK intake base
-LT headers/cutout
-MSD 6A and a K&N
-and to top it off.... a stock 305 SD TPI chip!

I basically had a stock L98 with a hotcam and a siamesed base with exhaust and ignition. I think I could throw on some homemade siamesed runners, a homemade monoblade TB, a AFPR, homemade EPROM, some good heads (AFR, TF, or Dart Pro-1s) and get 350RWHP. What do you guys think? Are my current dyno #'s high for what I have or what??

 

Getting 350rwhp from a NA 350ci motor on a LTR setup is probably not going to happen. I know guys running 406's who can't get 350rwhp from a LTR setup. Do I think it is possible? Barely - but it would take someone who is truly dedicated to this setup in order to produce those numbers. You would have to SERIOUSLY hog out a set of SLP runners, partially siamese the base, run a fairly stout camshaft on a tight LSA, and have EVERYTHING else in the setup perfect. The person would have to have a LOT of knowledge on motors and what it takes to produce good HP numbers ... along with PROM tuning knowledge. 350rwhp on a LTR 350 NA setup is extremely difficult and not probable. I'm not talking about 339.5rwhp or 342.8 rwhp ... we're talking a legitimate 350+ rwhp LTR car. Nobody on these boards has done it before ... and it would take someone really special (with a lot of patience and a fair amount of money) to do it. Good luck.

Tim

 

Yeah, I understand what you're saying Tim. I just think it would be cool to give it a shot and see how far I get with a set of heads on my shortblock and some cheapie homemade stuff. I think I could get 325RWHP rather easily. As for 350RWHP... we'll see. I might just do this stuff to see what happens. My base is already siamesed about 4" down and I've ported the hell out of it too. I think the siamsese base works well b/c I pull strong to 5700 or so and my RWTQ was only 330. I'd like to put a stock base or aftermarket base (non-siamesed) just to see how much difference it would make on this motor. I bet I'd gain 30-40RWTQ, but lose 25RWHP or so. What do you think??


*Then again, I might just put a stroker or LS1 in it come next year. I want over 400RWHP and I know this 355 ain't gonna cut that no matter what I do. Thanks for the good discussion!

 

Tim,,, Heres what I mean by that staement..

Once you get to a certain point,, The only way to get more horsepower is up the duration and lift. And the more duration you have the less streetable your car becomes. More duration=higher rpm power. Higher Rpm power= More horsepower. Which results in a extremly lopey, low vacume, and radical idle, and to keep the car running you have to up the idle speed and sometimes hold your foot on the gas and the break to keep it running. On the other hand, to get more torque, you can run low duration cams, centerlines , and less aggresive cam profiles. Which results in a smooth idle, and nice ride.

Dont tell me that a cam with a 260/270 duration @.50 is streetable!!! Obviously with more horsepower comes more torque, But you dont always have to have more horsepower to get more torque,, which is why IMO torque is more streetable. If your talking street racing,, then yes horsepower is better to have, (SOMETIMES). If you start at a light and your racing a guy in a 383 tpi, with full suspension mods, a moser 12 inch rear, and DR's then you might have a problem, with just horsepower. But from a roll the guy with torque may have a problem..

Hopefully you see what im getting at here.

Out

IROCZMAN380

 

GTA91 - How do you like the 4.10's behind the six-speed? I was thinking about going 4.10's, but 1st gear in my car is damn near useless on street tires. Would 3.73's be a better choice?


I may very well be the 1st person to prove everybody wrong about the whole 350 HP heated debate. We'll see.


11's is possible and not that difficult to do with LESS than 350rwhp in a full weight 3rdgen f-body. Look at the MAGNUM TPI turd from GM hightech perf. It ran 11.9 with like 334 rwhp. I can even give you an issue number if you haven't seen it for yourself. AND, Mike Crew's car is 3,500 pounds with-OUT driver running 12.3's with his old cam. He's done a couple of upgrades that may bring him into the 11's.

OK, this is officially my last post on this thread. LET THIS ONE DIE PEOPLE. We've proved that it IS possible to run 11's w/ less than 350 at the wheels. When I have my dyno slip and or timeslip, I'll post it on aftermarket product review. Till then, Good luck and G0d bless!

 

I love the 4.10s! The 3.42s I had weren't too bad behind my 6spd but with only 330RWTQ, it was a strain on the clutch to launch at the track on nitto DRs. Now with the 4.10s (deeper overall 1st gear) it is easier to launch at the track. It doesn't hook too bad on the street either, but then again I have 275RWHP and only 330RWTQ. Once the LT4 hotcam comes on at about 3k rpms she pulls hard, but with the TPI I run out at about 5500-5700. Future plans will change that though!

**Bottom line, I'd say 3.73/4.10s all depends on what 6-speed you have. If you have a '93 tranny with the deep 2.95 or 3.35 first gear, then I'd go with 3.42s or 3.73s. If you have the '94-'97 T56 (like me) with the crappy 2.66 1st gear, then I'd go with 4.10s. Either way, you won't be dissapointed while driving it. With 4.10s its a blast on the street and so much more fun to drive! Plus, if you blow out 1st gear racing, its really easy to start in 2nd gear or even 3rd if you have to.


Question for you.... I see you are running Hooker LTs with your T56. Right now I have some cheap off brand LT headers with my T56 and they only clear the slave cylinder housing by about a 1/4". Do the hookers clear it by much? Also, I see you are running the mufflex y-pipe. What crossmember are you using then and how much ground clearance you have? Any pics? And the last question... how do you like your McCleoud clutch?? Thanks for any help!


*As for the 350RWHP 350ci LTR setup, I think its possible to do and possible to squeek high 11s out of but it will have to all be setup almost perfect and will most likely be harder to do with a stick! SORRY FOR THE LONG POST!

 

<b>We've proved that it IS possible to run 11's w/ less than 350 at the wheels. </b>

Just want to point out I was the moron that made that statement and i left it for all to see in my clear stupidity. its possible to run 11's on 50 horsepower, any horsepower number given the right variables are introduced to the equation that makes horsepower what it is.

it was never really in debate.

and dont beleive everything you read.

i think what i meant to say was its not probable to hit 350RWHP with a LTR setup like everyone else mentioned. thats more of physics thing, mainly because based on CFM you can determine raw horsepower, and most LTR setups just cant support the CFM required to turn those kind of numbers. just like heads that only flow 200CFM you know most likelly that N/A that head wont support 500+ horsepower no matter what the cam or intake just because you have the CFM in print i can tell you that. its just one of those engineering mathematical things that i personally until i came to this site knew absolutelly nothing about... somone like crossfireTA can tell you WAY more about it than I... but i think you get my point about CFM provides the proving ground for horsepower #'s... without flow there are no numbers.

 

348rwhp and 539rwtq is my setup before the HSR. click the blue banner to see.

 

Ummm - that was on a 150 shot of juice. We're talking about NA here. HUGE difference. You would need to have made that 348hp BEFORE the 150 shot.

Tim

 

sorry. came in late. didn't bother to read the many pissing contest posts to see that. my bad.

 

Ok, one more thing to add!

I like to direct you guys to THIS Thread.




:lala:

 

You can wink all you like but PKs car is a different animal entirely. It's a carb with a shorter runner intake. There is no comparison to a LTR setup

Nobody doubts that an LTR setup can run 11's. As I've stated - I've already seen it done. I want to see one with a 350rwhp dyno pull on a naturally aspirated 350.

Tim

 

Don't hold your breath!

 

Your direction has backfired. The car is gutted. No interior, No heater, No AC, No Power Steering, No swaybar, etc. As PK mentioned - whatever didn't drive the car or stop the car was removed. His cam is also more aggressive (in more ways than one) ... AND he is running the carb that I mentioned.

Tim

 

Hey Trax,,,

DO you really think that the gutting pk did really made his car very much faster??? Ive seen many people gut there cars before,, and There results usually are like .1-.2 tenths in the quarter TOPS!!!.

The main difference in weight that will effect quarter mile times is at the front of the car.

he removed his ac,, his power steering, all emissions/smog, sway bar, and heater, and wipers.

I think most of us including 1bad91z already have taken out the ac and the smog crap,, that leaves the power steering and wipers?? Now really how much of a difference is that going to make??

The rear seats and interior probably ad up to like 60-70 pounds total. Then count the heater/wipers/power steering and id say prolly like another 30 pounds??Id say the gutting hes done, hasnt helped his times much. maybe .1-.2 like i said.

Lets just be generous and say hes lowered his cars weight by 200 pounds from what it was when stock. Id say 1bad91z,'s probably lowered it by like 50-60 pounds. So that gives pk the edge by around 150 pounds.

150 pounds???? Come on,, that aint gonna do much. unless its all in the front of the car, which it isnt in this case. Theres a formula to do for how many pounds of weight you shave =horsepower/et but ill have to find it.


IROCZMAN380

 

I am simply pointing out that PK gutted his car in order to get it into the 11's. Put that car back to stock and it's a very low 12 second car ... not an 11 second car. C'mon now. No seats, nothing behind the dash, no console, no seat belts, no wipers, etc. I'm just simply pointing this out for anyone who reads this post in the future and thinks that 11's are easy. PK did a lot of work to cut as much weight as possible to get there. It's not your ordinary street car.

Tim

 

While you're at it I'm still waiting on that dyno sheet from the "stock" L98 putting out 375RWTQ.

As far as PK's car, you're forgetting the most important part: It isn't TPI therefore it shouldn't have even been mentioned in this thread.

 

Last time I checked I didnt Mention it.

IROCZMAN380

 

I still have AC in my car! The weight I lost came from removing the carpet padding, removed smog pump and all other emissions crap, ditching the HEAVY 700r4 and convertor for the six-speed, and My exhaust is ALOT lighter than the factory dual cat setup and cast iron manifolds. I also removed the spare tire/jack, some bracing and plastic in the nose area (for room needed by the ram-air boxes), and other misc. stuff.

My car is in FULL street trim with complete interior and AC, but I shaved at least 200 pounds off the car!

 

Hmmm....the T56 is no lightweight. I thought there would be a big difference in weight when I did the swap, but I was wrong.

These numbers are off the top of my head...I could be off...but...

T56's weight between 115-130 lbs, depending of which one you have.

700R4 without fluid weighs roughly 125.

I removed a very light flexplate and a very heavy torque convertor. I installed a much heavier flywheel (30 lbs?) and clutch/clutch plate assembly, plus the belhousing, clutch fork, etc.

After doing the swap, I think there is little difference in weight between the two setups.

 

<b>Trax,
"The car is gutted. No interior, No heater, No AC, No Power Steering, No swaybar, etc. "
</b>


Are you trying to say what i said:

<b>and let me tell you, thats (11's) just not possible with 350RWHP in a thirdgen of average weight. i am sorry. </b>

Is true

Or are you just rubbing it:

<b>Nobody doubts that an LTR setup can run 11's.</b>

Into my salt covered wound even further


just curious
and BTW have you seen any 350RWHP 3800Lb. Cars run 11's before? I have not.

 

Just go look at some stalled A4 LS1 cars that are stock weight. They do it quite often I believe....

 

Every 11 second LS1 I know of has much more than 350 RWHP. My friends '02 SS with LS1 edit puts put 350RWHP stock and his best time is 13.1 @ 109MPH with 2.0 60ft

 

Are you guys really going to start this Bs 350rwhp crap up again???

You can RUN 11's without 350RWHP in any 3500 and under pound car. It can be done,, and it has been done. If you want me to post 50 stories of it from people off this site then i will.
Leave it alone. It has been done.

IROCZMAN380

 

<b>You can RUN 11's without 350RWHP in any 3500 and under pound car.</b>

I didnt say 3500Lbs i said 3800 Lbs...

<b>Every 11 second LS1 I know of has much more than 350 RWHP. My friends '02 SS with LS1 edit puts put 350RWHP stock and his best time is 13.1 @ 109MPH with 2.0 60ft</b>

MY POINT EXACTLY this is why i freakin SAID that in the FIRST PLACE... I was thinking LS-1 with a Cold-air and exhaust Hitting 350RWHP and running high 12's at best... stock weight.

so IM NOT CRAZY i just tend to forget that things like 1.6 60's can make more of an ET difference than a few extra HP can.
I quit.

 

Weight is one of the keys as kingtalon pointed out. I've seen 3600lb cars go 11's with less than 350 to the rear wheels. Yes, it can be done. Push the weight much higher than that and it's a no-go. You just have to know what you are doing. Weight is just part of the equation. The other is an awesome 60ft time. I am talking about high 1.5's to extremely low 1.6's. Sticky tires are a necessity. Furthermore, you better either have an automatic with a high stall ... OR you better be a really good driver and have a McLeod dual disk clutch and a 12-bolt / 9" rearend. If you have a T56 with a stock type clutch and a 10-bolt rearend then running 11's will not happen. Mark my words - won't happen, will not happen -- period. The 4thgen guys are shattering their rears well before the mid 12's. The clutches are holding to about the same range (since we are talking about 5000rpm launches).

Tim

 

You want a stock motor to put down over 350rwhp, slap a 175 shot on it and be done.

 

Then its not stock anymore. Besides there are a million ways to put down over 350hp, this thread is about making 350rwhp with an NA LTR 350.

 

You need to learn to read better dude. First of all that is what this post is all about (350RWHP). If you don't want to talk it about it then don't read it. He also said 3800 lbs, not 3500lbs and under.

 

I never judge anything form street races, I beat a few LS1's with my GT before the SC but I was making "maybe" 230rwhp back then. I got off the line hard with barely any spin and nailed the gears good. I could only win a 0-70 race, got spanked after that. A good driver and do wonders vs. a bad one. I put the SC on and guess I'm at 310-320 rwhp from my traps speeds and the weight of my car being 3440 with me, but pretty high on the torque range. I have never tried slicks yet..just Nitto Drags.

 

That's my point. Street racing is not as accurate as taking your car to the track because there are more variables. Traction being the biggest one.

 

Yep..I agree 100%. Mostly because there are alot of sh*t talkers around here that refues to even go to the track. Then there are the guys that ran there car at the track but "lost" there magical 11 second time slip or whatever. I have almost every slip from the last 6 years or so, especially my 12 second ones! I don't even like the whole dyno BS either. Sure it tells you how much power you have, but there are alot more variables that come into play at the track and the street. It is good to know the hp sure, but I think track times are a better indicator of a cars "true" performance. My car is no "dyno queen". If I wanted a dyno ueen I'd get a Supra!!!

 

The dyno is useful, it tells you where you need to shift.

 

Hey 1Bad91Z.....have you been to either with your setup? (Dyno or track)

Wondering what kind of times you'll get and I've been waiting quite a long time for you to post results.

 

lol, sorry man, none yet! Funds have been really tight currently and for the last few months! It sucks, cause I want to see them just as much, if not more than you guys do.

I can tell you this though, the car runs pretty damn good! I'll have dyno results before I have track results. I'm still tweaking the PROM and doing all that I can to the car that doesnt require barely any $$$ . Maybe towards the first of the year I'll have some paper results to post. Right now paying the damn bills takes a bigger priority than the car.

 

We still don't know if kc10 was talking flywheel or rear wheel. If he was talking flywheel, I would suggest vortec heads/base and the xr264 roller, you might even have to get some large tube or semi-siamised runners. If that is the case you would get more bang for your buck going with iron lightning 180's, a lt4 hot cam and a stealth ram, which might be good for 350 rear wheel HP.

 

That is true. That is the main reason why I would get my car dynoed anyways. The only problem is the stock tach apparently isn't very accurate so we really don't know what RPM we're shifting at.
Aftermarket tach = That's one more thing to buy

 

geebus this thread is huge. I read damned near every post too. I don't know about the whole LTR thing. I have seen guys running 12s and stuff on 315HP or so to the wheels. depends on alot. Hope you guys figure it all out though, this thread is flame central!

cheers!

 

Umm... it's been quite awhile and I still don't recall running across a timeslip or dyno sheet from 1bad91z's car.

Mike-- if you've done it and I missed it, can you post the results again?