i need to decide which head to get. i like the TFS heads because they are slightly cheaper and the extra money saved can go towards porting and polishing or something like that. either way i go i think im gonna have the heads milled and preassebled by TEA. do you think kthe extra compression is gonna hurt anything or should i be good to go on that?

plus YFS has some kinda cool valve covers too.

 

i just got TFS heads from TEA a couple weeks back to go on my 355... not on the car yet so no #s for me...

but i can guarentee that evenone here will tell you to go w/ the AFRs yes they are good heads but do what you think willl work... i got the TFS heads b/c i got sick of people saying they can't make power so i am gonna see what i can get out of them...

Brian @ TEA told me he would rather have the TFS heads over the AFR heads... said there is nothing wrong w/ the AFR heads, but he just likes the design of the TFS heads... he deals both so... i thought i would give them a try...

 

thank you my man i think thats what im going with then.

and about the milling. i was told when i got my car that the engine had been rebuilt shortly before i got it. i can believe it since the TV cable was out of adjustment, meaning that the TB had been taken off possibly. but regardless, should i get the heads milled for some more compression or just leave them like they are?

and how much tuning will this new motor need? will it run pretty decent on the stock PROM until i can get it tuned or will it just runn like ***?

 

I will be running the combo next year. I have the TF SR and 269HR cam now with nice results

 

I run the stock chip now with stock converter and 0 problems. Passsed emmisions and all + 25 MPG Highway

 

you think ill be able to get by with that with my speed density and the 219 cam?

 

I wouldn't trust the valve springs on the cheaper version of the 23° TFS heads.

I've read at least three other threads on the boards where one of thier valve springs broke and was being ran within the intended limits. It happened to mine at about 1k miles. .495/.502 lift, never over 5k, (at that time). Got lucky, no damage. Replaced they with 1.25" Erson springs and they would float at 6k. Replaced them again with TFS 1.46 duals springs and I'm ok to 7k.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=161274

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ght=tfs+spring


I don't know the quality of the AFR valve springs and I believe, I'm not sure, I've read where some people had to upgrade them also, but. . . my point is, after spending over $200.00 to upgrade the springs, plus the effort to do it with the engine assembled, I wish I'd just bought the heads with better springs to start with.

I have a feeling the higher lift hydraulic roller camshafts are considerably harder on those little 1.25" springs than they are intended to withstand.

I'm not really answering your question though because I don't know the answer. The 23° TFS heads seems to make plenty of power for me but I'm sure there are better.

I do know that now with a Comp Cams 8-306-8, .544/.576 290/306 112LC, TFS 1.46" dual springs, 7/16 rocker studs and Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.6 roller rockers I can 7k without any problem and never any valve float.

Point is, buy the best springs you can afford or your efforts and money will both be wasted! Don't trust the TFS 1.25" springs!!!

 

I had the 1.47 ones with a .530 cam and I was getting valve float at 5K. I picked up the 1.46 ones tonight from summit for the 219 cam

 

I would verify that the ported TFS heads will exceed the AFR's. Look at the .400 #'s on CHP's site. It will take a lot of porting by a knowledgable porter on those heads to beat the AFR's. It's not to difficult to get the flow up a lot at .500 lift and above. At .400, it takes knowledge of the head. You might get it with a $500 job. Some shops can get you to a claimed 275 cfm at .600. But what are the .400 #'s? It's mostly bowl work and zero bench time. Remember your not near .600 lift. Check the prices, it may not be a bargain after all.

 

The reason you want to check mid-lift flow numbers is because in the cycle of the vavle opening and closing you will be at .400 lift 2 times! and peak only once. Its kind of how you can have a car with 500 peak hp, and it gets beat by a car with less peak hp, but has more hp on average throughout the powerband...

I bought the AFRs for my S-10, Amaizing heads!:hail: Plus exhaust is flowing ~200cfm! Spend you money on CNC machine work that is always the same, not some guy with a grinder(results vary)

 

thanks for the help guys. but you are saying that i might have trouble even with the upgraded 1.47 springs? i had planned on getting those from the start. and yes the chamber work from TEA is all CNC. thanks again.

 

I don't have any experience w/ the TFS heads, but I have AFR 190's as does a friend, and I wouldn't buy any others. I'm sure the TFS will work well with the combo, but I really like the AFR's. My times are in the sig below, keep in mind, I haven't done any tuning yet either and the car is FULL weight and runs on drag radials.

 

so do you think i will run somewhat close to what you are running without any tuning on my end? im just thinkin about how well the MAF responds to mods compared to the SD setup. i wont have any tuning at first if it will run decent.

 

I don't think you'll be as close to me with no tuning. SD is completely different. The MAF is much more forgiving in this case. But once your's gets tuned, it should run great and be just as good/fast as a tuned MAF car.

 

but it will have decent daily driving abilities? i will eventually get it tuned. i may even just wait to do the install until i get the commander 950 installed and tune the stock setup. then it should be easier once the mods are installed.

 

I couldn't tell you. I think it'd be pretty far off and not run too well. There's a pretty good difference between this setup and stock as far as tuning goes. Once it's tuned though, it should be very close to stock as far as drivability.

Maybe someone with SD on here can tell you how their's ran w/ no tuning on a similar combo.

 

I'm running AFR 190 heads, and I wouldn't recommend them for road-racing applications.

They make great power, but the oil return is a problem. The return holes put the oil "waterline" above the valve cover gaskets, making them very prone to leakage. Even with centerbolt valve covers (after you deal with the bolt holes being shorter depth than GM) and rubber gaskets, submerging that gasket junction in oil guarantees it will be more prone to leakage than one that just gets splashed.

The oil return holes are also much smaller than my GM heads' were, which causes more pooling of oil up top and delays return to the pan. Not a big deal for street use or drag racing, but on a road course where you're keeping the engine in the 3000-6400rpm range the whole time the oil return becomes a problem.

I suspect AFR does things with the cooling jacket (moving it farther away from the combustion chamber) which limits their placement and sizing options with the oil return hole.

Great for power, as it keeps more heat in the combustion chamber similar to an iron head. Back when AFR was called Brownfield they did this and it was very effective...but it same issue w/ oil return pathing. And that was back when valvecovers were perimeter-bolt using cork gaskets, took real art to get them sealed.

 

Who says they can't make power????? (105 MPH trap speed for my car with a Hot Cammed, TPI 355 with poop headers - no need to talk about the 60' and ET )

 

i see it all the time in posts... this question comes up all the time, and most of the time people get told to just get the AFRs... oh well... we will see when i get my stuff done finally how they turn out...

Matt... what did u run w/ that setup?? what intake are you running? mine is gonna end up w/ a xe224/230 112lsa, 108 icl w/ the 3100 series lobes (cause i got some 1.5 rockers cheap), the TFS heads, 10.25:1 compression, and hedmen hedders... haven't decided whether to run the stocker intake modified or pickup a LT1 from a buddy...

 

Alright, here's my take on this. If anyone can beat BuckeyeRoc's mph and 1/4 time with his setup, only instead using stock TF's over the 190's and get better results, I'll kiss your a$$. Not really, but I highly doubt you'll run better than this proven setup if you run TF's instead. I am talking about a full street trim car too. You may get 112mph with the TF's if you run more compression, and maybe a bigger cam, but the low lift #'s are just not as good as the AFR's. The 190's are mainly a high-tq head and they're perfect for a SR. Of course high low end tq=excellent mid range hp which= pefect match to a SR.

 

i threw on a SR.. proaction 180 heads.. pretty much the same as a 219 cam.. close enough

all i can say is learn to hate speed density tuning without a wideband is murder

yeah sure you can read the plugs but who shuts their car off at 100mph to check the plugs

driveability isnt a problem.. that can be nailed down pretty quick with VE master/datamaster/tunercat.. although it was very very rich off the bat

i would kill to see a VE graph and a spark table for a 190/SR setup.. i've tried coming in hard on the gas at 2k..3k..4k... flat curves.. different sparks...

just all seems to run the same...

stock speed density without dyno = waste of time

also.. stock stall/rear/suspension = waste of building your engine up

 

I've hit 110 MPH traps with my setup in 90º weather. Oh wait I have AFR190s!

 

Well lets not cling to the outliers as the norm here.... And lets not jump to the conclusion that all owners of said heads (both of them) post here and/or feel like sharing their results...

That stuff being said, I think mine could possibly run MPHs (doubtful on the ET though) like that with more attention spent towards drag racing and a better intake. Mine turned that time/MPH on a crappy day(very hot, humid), crappy track prep, street tires, 3.42s (not ideal when considering the ratios in a T56), and with my siamesed TPI setup on it with little to no WOT tuning.... I'm not saying it definately could, but the potential is there, IMO.

But I guess we will never know as my new engine (see sig) is nearing completion and I won't be hitting the track again with this combo.

Chris - You can click on the link in my sig to get to the site I threw together for my car and get details on the current engine setup.