flightform89

Hi.I've been searching for 7 hours,and still can't find out whats going on.I've checked the fusible links,charged the battery,tried to jump start it,checked the 20a fuse next to the battery,checked all the fuses in the fuse pod under the dash.I don't have the security light coming on at all,so I removed the gauge cluster,but the bulb is fine.I can't check the starter until tomrrow,because I'm on a dirt driveway,and won't have something until then to keep the car from falling on me,but I'm fairly certain the starter is fine.Is ther anything else I could be missing.I was in the middle of changing the maf relays when this happened,so I'm not sure if I did something then.I changed one,then started the car-no problem.Changed the second one,tried to start the car-nothing.Switched the relay back-nothing.Since the security light isn't coming on at all,I thought that might be it,But I can't find any posts that says where the vats fuse is.I thought about banging my head against a tree 20 or 30 times-not sure if it will start after that or not.Any thoughts on what I might be missing.Thanks guys,dee

flightform89

Furthur detail.I also checked the neutral safety switch wires,and they're okay.I've had the car almost 7 months,and don't recall ever seeing the security light.I didn't even know it was supposed to be there until this morning when I started searching posts trying to figure out this problem.I've also found out there is a starter relay,but I'm not sure if that can be bypassed or not.Other than these two things,the head-banging-on-tree is starting to look promising.I noticed a theme on other posts refering to this same problem>vats hell

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

From what I found, it's most likely your vats connection in the steering column, or the key itself. Mine sometimes does that, you turn the key, and it's just "Dead"...no starter click, no nothing. I still didn't solve mine, but here's what I think. There are two wires supposedly in the column that "Read' the resistance chip on the key. That tells the VATS box to say "ok", then the starter relay clicks, and VROOM, starts up. The ecm also keeps the injectors pulsing from a sine wave generated by the VATS box. Now, I looked, I can't find the VATS box on mine, nor the two wires on my column. They obviously must be there. I too do not get the security light. It comes on and blinks, then goes away. Now, when I get this condition, I don't even hear the starter enable relay clicking. So, it obviously has to be something w/ VATS. I jumped my starter straight to the battery, and it turns right over...after that, I try the key again, and works fine for a random amount of times, then happens all over again...gotta jump to the battery once more. So, you be the judge. That's what I've gathered on that problem. I'd rather disable it in the prom, but no burner, etc. Oh yeah, and measure the resistance from the chip on the key...if you FIND the two skinny (supposedly white) wires in your column, splice in the resistance from the # you got off your key. This will tell VATS that the right key is always in the ignition, and will even start w/o the "chip" key. I think the problem lies w/ the age of the wires always turning in the ignition cylinder...sometimes they make a good contact, sometimes they plainly say, "screw u"

flightform89

Thanks for replying.I thought about the key too,but I have two of them,and one is in much better condition than the other one,and they've both always worked.The switch itself could be causing the same "worn out key" problem too,though.I guess.With the security light,I don't think mine has ever come on,not even for a second or two like I've just found out it's supposed to.It's not doing it now,anyway.I haven't tried to jump the starter directly yet,so I'll do that if I can't track this thing down.Thanks for the suggestion and the hints.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Your more than welcome. Good luck!!

Trickster

Actually, the wires are a part of the ignition lock cylinder and run down the length of the column. On the newer lock cylinders, it is two white wires with a orange wrap on them. The older ones were yellow wires with a black wrap for the pontiacs and white wires with a black wrap for the camaros. They connect to two wires (black/white & purple/yellow) under the dash that go to the VATS control module. To see if the key or ignition lock cylinder is bad, try this. First use a multimeter set to OHM's and measure the resistance value of the pellet in the key. Next, disconnect the ignition lock cylinder harness from the VATS control module harness under the dash. Put the key in the ignition lock cylinder and leave it in the "OFF" position. With the multimeter still set at OHM's, probe the terminals in the ignition lock cylinder connector and measure the resistance value there. If the resistance value is the same, your problem is somewhere else. If the value is different, then the problem is either the key is worn, the contacts in the cylinder are worn, or one of the wires is broken. If the two of you would like to have it, I have some information on the VATS from the GM service manual that I have already sent to several other members of this group.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Trickster: Thanks!! I've read your posts before about the problem. MY problem is, I couldn't find the damn wires on the column, lol. I know how to disable it w/ the resistor, etc...just can't find the wires. I have so many more wires there b/c of my custom stuff, I can't find anything...lol. Where is the VATS box? I looked around, close to the firewall under the drivers side, but didn't see it. Also looked up by the column, under the kick panel, can't find it. Is it close to the radio? Also, if I just found the box, I could unplug it, and wire the resistor right before the plug. That'll save the trouble of searching for it under the column. Now that I know the correct wire scheme, maybe it'll be easier to trace. I got a '90 Bird.

Thanks

Trickster

SweetRide45,

If you cant't find the wires coming down the steering column and your key has a pellet in it. Then some one has already bypassed your VATS with a resistor or deleted it from the chip in the ECM and cut the wires to the ignition lock cylinder. Another thought is this, they could have done yours like a previous owner did to mine. I knew mine was supposed to have the VATS system, but the key in the lock was just a regular key. After I got my GM service manual and knew what to look for, I was able to locate the wires for the VATS module and saw there were two wires connected to the harness, strange. I traced those wires up under the dash above the fuse block. Feeling brave (dumb is more like it), I stuck my hand up there and felt a large lump of something. I pulled it down and it was a large gob of electrical tape with two wires coming out of it. I started unwrapping what looked like a whole roll of old sticky, slimey, electrical tape. Inside all this tape was a second igntion lock cylinder with a uncut coded key in it. I don't know if the previous owner was trying to bypass the VATS, didn't know how to install it, or was just too blamed lazy to do the job right.
I bought a new ignition lock cylinder and had two keys cut for it and coded. Then pulled the steering wheel to replace it and found over half of the retaining hardware in the column was missing. It is all replaced now and works great.

PS: your VATS control module should be somewhere on the firewall above the center air vents, it will be a gray rectangular box about 3" wide & 5" long with a sticker (?) that says "PASS-KEY"

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Thanks. I know for a fact My VATS is in tact. I had a "regular" key made w/o the pellet, and it won't start at all (just like it does when the PELLET key is tried sometimes). I'll look for the VATS module up there...I was looking for it under and around the kick panels and column. I'll check the center firewall.

Thanks!!

flightform89

Trickster,I've read a number of your posts on this topic,too.I would be grateful for the extra information on the vats syatem.Do you have any idea why I'm not seeing the security light at all?Would a bad starter relay prevent the light from being triggered,or cause the no-start hell that I'm currently in?Thanks man,dee

Trickster

I would be more than happy to send it to you flightform89, just supply me with an e-mail address.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!

flightform89

Added my email,Trickster.I also just bypassed the starter relay,and the starter turns over,but won't crank.Since this is an 89,I understand that vats also allows the injectors to fire,so I think I've found the culprit.I've read several posts that mention a vats fuse.Is this a fuse thats not in the fuse block,and would a blown vats fuse cause the problem.I'm also going to try and find the wires in the column and check those as well.thanks,dee

flightform89

Okay.I found the vats fuse,and it's fine.That leaves the key cylinder,as far as I understand.The thing that's bothering me most about this is that it happened after I removed/replaced the second maf relay.I can't help but think that I did something that caused this to happen at that moment.Also,after removing the console to check the neutral safety switch,I now have the security light coming on..Please guys,if anyone has ANY idea what I could have done,post your ideas.

Trickster

Hello Flightform89,

You have e-mail, also while you are out checking the car. This is mentioned in the info that I have sent you, check the eng/cnl fuse and the guages fuse on the fuse block just for ****s & grins. There is also a 3 amp fuse on the fuse block labeled crk. It stands for crank not to be confused with crack. Hope this helps.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!

flightform89

Thanks Trickster.I'll check my email now and read though that info.I've checked all the fuses in the fuse block,but I'm going to check again too.The only thing I can think of that I haven't done is pull the steering wheel to get to the ignition switch so I can check the wires on it.

Trickster

Read my first post and you will see a easy way to check the wires without pulling the steering wheel.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

flightform89

I've been searching all over for my multimeter to do just that.Going to see if a neighbor has one I can use.

flightform89

Trickster,I've got a what-if to ask.>I have two keys.If I undo the connector with the two yellow wires,and make a connection using two wires attached to one of the keys with the other ends going into the connector,would that allow the vats to operate?That is assuming I have a bad connection in the steering column somewhere.

Trickster

What you can do in your "what if scenario" is take some thin guage wire and stick the ends into the connector going to the VATS control module. Take one key and hold the bare wires against each side of the keys pellet with your fingers and use the second key to try and start the car. I believe that is the question you are asking. I meant to ask earlier and forgot, do you hear the fuel pump prime when you turn the key?

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!

flightform89

Yes,I do hear the fuel pump.What's that indicate to you?And yes on the other,too.I was wondering if I could use my second key to "trick" the vats.Thanks again,man.I'm out in the country with nothing more detailed than a Haynes manual,and you and others have kept me from feeling helpless.

Trickster

The fuel pump priming eliminates the possibility of a potential problem with the fuel pump relay and fusible links.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!

flightform89

Success at last.It took a good 20 hours or so,but I learned a lot more about my car in the process.When I held the two wires against the key,it started right up.In three days,this board has saved me two tows and unknown shop fees.(by the way,I appreciate shop professionals,just can't afford them very often).Trickster,you da man.dee.