Got a 91 Z28 w/ 305 TPI, 700R4 W/ OD.
I am thinking about getting a Stage 2 chip buy Hypertech or some other reputable company. I want to know if it will make a big difference and if it is worth the money. The motor is completely stock. What do ya think?
Thanks.

 

Not really.

 

Check the DIY-PROM forum first. For what the "Stage 5,000,000" or whatever chip costs you can pretty much buy a cheap laptop, PROM burner, and ALDL cable and do it yourself.

By and large, the Stage-X chips just add fuel and spark to the Wide Open Throttle areas, and drop the fan on/off temps a bit.

 

I've spent a few months looking into this before deciding what to do.

These are my conclusions:

1) Off the shelf chips set fan temps and change timing and fuelling at wide open throttle, and, depending on supplier, at part throttle. If you do it yourself that is what you will change too so I don't see why people are so quick to knock them.

2) With the right software you may end up changing the fan temps etc yourself, cos that's nice and easy. The "how to" on these things becomes very vague when it comes to what changes you need to make to ignition and timing. ie, you're on your own, try a few values and see what happens. Yeah, thanks for that...

3) If you have done more than the bolt-ons IT IS necessary to have a custom chip. If you have a standard, or near standard car an off the shelf chip will do just fine imho as that is what those chips are designed for. The fact that they have only made small adjustements to the timing and fuelling is neither here nor there, the car only needs minor changes because the engine is largely standard.

I have bought a Performance Resource chip for mine as it produced the best numbers in a magazine article of all the chips they tested. However I have bought a lot of parts from TPIS and they offer different chips to match the different stages of parts you may have added to your car which is probably the best solution and one I would have gone for in hindsight.

For example, air filters, airfoil, ported plenum and exhaust is one chip. Adding headers to that and higher fuel pressure and so on is a different chip (and you only pay the price difference).

And so on.

In theory those stages are ideal as they will be mapped to the parts they sell. Of course every car is different but it is better than a "one size fits all" off the shelf chip.

Until you really mess with your engine I don't see why you need to spend weeks burning a stack of different proms to try and eek that little extra out of your car, adding some timing here, some fuelling there. How are you going to verify that these changes are the optimum ones? Are you going to stick it on a dyno or tacke it to the track between every single prom you burn? And is your technique at the track consistent enough to not skew the results? If you pout a different cam in what should your fueling and timing be? No-one will tell you becuase they don't know, they just tell you to experiment.

I fully agree that DIY prom burning is the best way to go when you really get into modding your engine in a big way (eg stroking it, supercharging it, high lift cams and what not) but for those of us with headers, an exhaust, air filters and that sort of thing I'm sure there are off the shelf chips (like the ones I mentioned) that will do the job just fine. You may not get that last 0.5 rwhp but so be it. Making the changes is easy, knowing what values to use is another thing entirely.

Personally I think a good off the shelf chip for your (as in anyone) bolt on set of mods whetever they may be (like the TPIS ones) to begin with, and then getting into DIY burning when you do more is the best way to go. At least then you can compare your std prom to the one you bought to see what they changed (not just fan temps but timing as well) for your mods and go from there.

Just my opinion.

 

There has been some heated discussion over this recently.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=238655

 

Yeah I read it.

A proper custom, for your actual car, tested and developed on it, prom is the way to go.

But it's not as straightforward as some people make out. Not only do you need the burning equipment and software you need scanning software and a lot of time and wasted chips.

My experience on other cars I have owned is that off the shelf chips are fine on cars that are fairly close to standard but as soon as a different cam comes into it you need a proper job done.

I still stand by the fact that a decent off the shelf chip is good for a standard or near standard car.

In fact I think the TPIS way of working is great for those who are just starting out modding their car with filters and exhausts etc as the chip is matched to their specific products.


When I get to the stage of fitting a blower and maybe even putting said blower on a 383 I'm gonna hve to take the car to someone who knows how to map a car or learn myself.

 

Look into fastchip done be Ed Wright, they have a good off the shelf chip.

 

I could not agree any more with this comment. It's about time some one said it. Very well done FocusGhia, nice job!

 

What about PCM For less? I hear they are real good.

 

I also agree. It's about time someone kept it real. Very well said.

 

Listen, you tweak your PROM to get the most out of what you have, plain and simple.

I'm not sure how the above conclusions were drawn, but I believe them to be way off base.

If you've read from the guys who are serious about tuning, you'll come across a few that are knocking .35-.4 off thier ET's and getting close to 30 MPGs, on near stock L98's.

Hmmn, 30HP and 5-7 MPGs?

I don't think any off the shelf chip will do that for you.

Yes, it takes time to tune your chip appropriately...my guess is you guys won't remeber the days of taking a toolbox along with a handful of springs and weights, jets, power valves, etc, to Grudge Night and trying to get in 4 or 5 runs.

Now you can do it all, and never get your hands dirty, smell like gas and try to figure out how to get that damned fuel bowl gasket to seal after you broke it

Anyway, back to your favorite programming.

 

Just 30 hp? You can get as much as 20 or more from an off the shelf chip. So I'd expect a lot more than 10 more hp from my $400-$500 initial investment in programs and equipment, not to mention all the time involved in learning and programming my own chips.

I apologize, Mike, I don't mean to mock. But you're talking about adjusting to your mods and being at the track, where it's worth it, even necessary. And that's already been said here. No one disagrees with that. But while you and a lot of others are racing, where it's important to get every little tenth out of your set-up, I'd guess that most who view this site are not.

Only about 25% of the viewers actually post replies to topics. Those other 75% are probably here to learn about their cars, solve problems, find parts, have fun, or just be entertained. I'm always entertained, lol.

As for mileage, off the shelf chips also give better mileage. But that's not important to me. I don't own this car for economical reasons, and I doubt anyone does. Mine happens to get pretty good mileage for what it is, and it always has, so I admit, I'm happy about that. But if someone's getting lousy mileage, then a chip alone won't solve their problems.

But one thing, when it comes to chip topics, some "experts" on this site just get plain ugly and insulting to those who ask questions. And that's not necessary. When it comes to posting comments, we're supposed to "play nice," lol.

 

Agreed...no doubt about it. Some of the "tuners" get irratated by old/repeat questions, and tell the poster to "search"...which isn't really a bad thing. I've been w/TGO for a long time and also get irratated by the same old questions, say in and day out...but I'm going off topic.

Anyways, if you a ding-dong for tuning like a lot of us over (way over) 30 crowd are, you begin to realize the benefits of having it all done in the cockpit, and never opening the hood.


As far as cost is cocerned, there was a day when we used to shell out a C-note for a decent setup to set the dwell/timing/etc with...compared to todays cost, it's an even wash to get into PROM burning.

Nothing comes easy..i/e you won't get someone to drop the perfect burn into your inbox, but as you do it (just like changing the advance or changining jets) you'll get some great advice along the way.

It's all about what you want in performance.

 

Don't forget, power gains aside, that with PROM burning you can also make your car drive the way you want it (with changes to things like throttle follower routines, torque converter lock/unlock criteria, PE mode engagement, etc).. Its nice to be able to make your car do things when YOU want them to...

 

I dont think off the shelf chips are worth the money. But its just my opinion after trying them. If the car is mostly stock, just run the stock chip and save your $. If the car is highly modified, your money is much better spent having a custom chip made. I decided to go the DIY route on my blown Z28 but my plans have been on hold for a long time since the car is now my daily driver (too afraid to change the ECM and then have no way to get to work if it dosnt work right away). Hopefully this will change in about 1 month. FWIW, I was so disgusted with my Hypertech Stage 2 chip I gave it to someone for free.

 

You all make good points, but custom tuning isn't always an option for some people. Some might not have the time for it. Some might not feel the need for it. Or some might be lucky just navigating their way to this website, let alone custom tuning their own chips.

They might only be looking for a little extra fun when putting their foot into it once in awhile, so they don't mind spending $120-$150(like any other inexpensive mod) to be able to do that. To them, it's just not that important to invest more. And if they did, for everyday use, they're probably not gonna be adjusting much more than what the off the shelf chips have already done.

Like anything new to people, they might just wanna test the water, so-to-speak. And an off the shelf chip allows them to do that without the risk of sacrificing driveability or possibly screwing other things up during the trial and error process. It's inexpensive, it's safe, it's quick, it's easy, and they will get better performance. And who knows? Later on they might get the bug to get into it deeper. I'd guess that's how most tuners got started anyway. So whether they admit it or not, that initial off the shelf chip purchase actually WAS worth it, if for no other reason than that.

 

I do have to agree to FocusGhia on this. You can take apply the "custom" term to everything we do to our cars. The way i see it, if im buying off the shelf, boltons, with an intake or headers being the most extreme of that level, then an off the shelf chip, would be a logical step. "But you will never get it to run at 189475% of its optimum level with an OTS chip, it has to be custom burnt by you." Ummm ok, but if im gonna shell out the bucks for all that stuff to burn my own, just for some OTS boltons I can see the justification.
If i were getting some high buck CNC aluminum heads, with ported this, titanium that, with stainless steel these, a fully ported intake setup, a custom cam with xxx/xxx lift and xxx/xxx duration, with so and so LSA, and my motor had such and such compression, with custom made headers, that have been designed by nasa's supercomputers, the of coarse I dont want some chip Joe Schmoe concocted in his basement. I would want OPTIMAL TUNING for my OPTIMAL PARTS.
Even if i went with say, the SDPC vortec head intake package, with a healthy roller cam (not a custom, OTS of coarse), and a nice set of shorty headers, a reasonable TC with a good stall (I know that can be custom made too) Then ill call Ed, TPIS, PR, or whoever does a custom chip, give them all my specs, driving habits, uses, and the color of my underware, pay them, and install it. If it dont work, thats what the warranties are for.

If i have 600 in boltons under the hood, I dont need 500 in software, to make a $9 chip, to squeeze the last .003856 HP out of a $90 AFPR. A chip is overlooked as a basic bolton like most everything else, we buy it, install it, in a quest for a ride that is a little more entertaining than the last time.

So when you see a guy in the same boat im in ask a question about chip MFR's and you have actual helpful insight, it is always appreciated. When you say, "go drop 500 in software, when you get it setup, and you feel lost, just expariment...." doesnt really help the guy out. Oh and "Do a search" doesnt qualify as help. I see that as someone saying" Its been talked about, but im too busy to remember what was said, so i cant answer that"

 

Bottom line is....if you want to play, you gotta pay.

Over the shelf chips are pretty much a waste of money, especially on a near stock car. This was proven 15 years ago. If you can find the August 88 of Hot Rod magazine they track tested a stock L98 IROC with different aftermarket chips. The results were less than impressive. They went no faster, even slower than with the stock chip.

 

never said puttin a chip in a stock car is the best thing, but as arguments and experiences have shown, would the dollars spent on custom burning equipment help a stock car any better, or even be worth it?

 

Many, many years ago. "real" hot rodders would change dist weights, buy EST computers (little things with up and down arrows), change the jets in the carb, etc.

When I look at these silly coments I just laugh. When I was a kid, i'd go through 3 or 4 carbs, trying carb spacers, tons of jets, dist weights, etc all to find the "right tune". Now I just use a laptop and some software.

You really think its hard? We didnt "document" it enough for you?
Its about time someone "kept it real" ??

I agree. Its about time the average TGO poster learned how to work on a hot rod. I'm ashamed.

-- Joe

 

Is playing with numbers on a computer really hot rodding....
I guess to some but maybe people are having problems brigging the gap between the two....
Its getting harder and harder to find good mechanics these days because all you have is someone sticking a cable up to the computer...if it does not say anything wrong...there lost.
People know the symptoms of a bad water pump,or bad brakes and so forth...you can see it,hear,or even smell it....but a computer is just numbers,and I think it turns a lot of people off...
You see alot of people on here with good setups...and they did alot of the work themselves .i.e install the heads,exhaust,whatnot....but it comes to the chip and there lost.
Some guys on here just don't want to deal with the whole thing...
and there being casted as someone who is not really into hotrodding or is ignorant of things....its great that you can plug a labtop in and tune your car...great..do you know how to mill and port heads,and turn a crank and balance a rotating assembly?
What ...no? ...oh,you send that to SOMEONE else to do...oh.okay sounds like a double standard here...Now maybe the guy that does all your machine work turns around and says "hey...your not really hot rodding ..you can't even balance a bottom end..its easy!!" And maybe to him it is....Or maybe you just don't feel like trying to build your own bottom end...which is the whole argument here...what you think is easy/simple maybe the next guy just dosen't want anything to do with it...And I'm not really attacking anyone here...but for all these "I burn my own prom' characters on here....how many have sometrhing to brag about,a couple yeah...after 9 months of experimenting...
that said....how could it be better than on a dyno....I mean your taking data as the car is under load,and you can see a graph as to where there could be missing/knocking ect....I more asking on this,not saying...I know couple guys with dyno tune...and they run reeeaalll f#@$king good....

 

Your comparing an EFI tuner to the average guy at Jiffy lube. who thinks As long as the Check engine light is not on its ok.

Its always been numbers! Timing has always been in degrees. As far as carbs go, the body's are numbered in cfm, the jets have numbers, the fuel pumps are numbered in GPH.. Its the same thing.

No offense, but any monkey can turn a wrench. To some people adding headers or whatever is it, the end all. But its not. It starts from selecting what components work together (based on their flow numbers, cam numbers, compression numbers, etc) and ends with dialing in the right fuel and timing.

uhm. No actually, I do.

And for those who don't, no its not a double standard. You can't compare a final tune to balancing an engine.

A dyno is neat for getting a rough idea at HP, and getting an idea at what AFR the motor likes best. I hope for *** sake you don't think the optimal dyno tune is gonna work well at the track.

Weight of the car, drag, cooling effect, gearing, elevation, etc are all going to change timing and fueling requirements. Other than my above mentioned points, the dyno tune is only good for showing someone a peice of paper.

-- Joe

 

If any monkey can turn a wrench then the average guy at jiffy lube shouldn't have a problem....

always numbers/...sometimes..the computer can't tell you that the waterpump is starting to leak a little,or that squeal just as you hit the brakes...so forth..something that is right in front of you...and it requires use of senses...the computer is just a screen...with numbers,is what I was trying to prove,some people just don't want to deal with it...your good mechanics know things about cars by listening to them or the things they do...not always what a a screen is telling them....

Any monkey can turn a wrench...yeah I agree...but,does that automatically mean he can boot up software on a labtop and tune or ,guess actually,untill its right...and if any monkey can turn a wrench why is garages doing so much business....maybe because they don't want to fool with it...that sounds familar...

I was not directing this post at you..(you seem pretty cool actually)..its great that you can burn your own proms/build your own bottom end/port your heads....great you must be very well off,with all these talents.....but ALOT of people don't know how to do this kind of stuff,and don't want to fool with it...sounds familar again...there an echo? In terms of comparing a final tune to building a bottom its just like anything else..and you made my point here...just because you know how to do it and do it right does not mean that someone else automatically should be able to do it....I guess all prom burners on this board can port heads/and get results/balance ther bottom ends...if so I'll shut up..my point is,what you think is easy maybe the next guy dosen't think is so easy....

i 've seen some good running cars off of dyno -tunes....and I think they do more then just fuel as they also can tell where there is missing/knocking ..so forth...they also adjust timing/whatnot....
Its better than trying to hear for knock or pinging,or judging how it feels...or how you ran a at the track..because there is driver error....I see guys on hear sayinghow there still burning proms after months of experimenting,and its still not perfect...how do you even know what perfect is? i think the fact is that the whole do it yourself prom tuning still has a little ways to go yet before it is accepted as "the only way"...

 

This might be an "apples to oranges" type comparison, so if it is I apologize. Car Craft did a test with a Hypertech chip on a bone stock, late '80's Rustang and picked up 2 tenths.

I am certainly not endorsing aftermarket chips, but 2 tenths doesn't sound bad to me.

 

Anesthes is absolutely concerned with a perfect, all seasonal tune. If not - he will have a chip for each seaon or different conditions. There is a BIG difference between that and somebody who doesn;t want to blatantly ignore tuning. A dyno tune with A/F readout is good enough for a lot of people - but he is right, it will not be perfect. There are grey areas here... from stock proms to off the shelf to custom tune to self tune.

 

Use that money to build a combo that can actually benifit from a re-tune. Weather or not you do it yourself does not matter. Don't expect much from an off the shelf chip.

 

We're getting off the basic point of the argument here.
We're talking about more than bolting on just the basics, we're introducing cams and heads and superchargers now.

On a side note, I installed a Performance Resource prom in my car on Saturday and it does pull better (and that'\s even taking into account a placebo effect which I always expect).
I don't have any track numbers yet (obviously) but I'll be taking my car to a dyno in a week or two and I'll try it with the std prom and the PR prom and as soon as I get my GTech back that I loaned to someone I'll try it with that too.

It's not a question of not wanting to try and understand the "numbers on the screen" or being afraid to fiddle with electronics. I have a degree in software engineering and work in IT. Computers hold no mystery to me and neither do electronics for that matter as I am qualified in that too. The point is I'm not going to spend more than the cost of an off the shelf chip (and it is more, the chip cost me like $150, how much is a laptop, cables, various bits of software, chip burner and dyno time gonna cost?) to get the last few hp. If an off the shelf chip gives me (pulling numbers out of the air here) 20HP and a few tenths off my 1.4 and a custom one I develop myself over a few weeks gives me 25HP and an extra tenth off my 1/4 I'm happy with my $150 investment thanks.


As for an unbiased view of several different off the shelf proms on a std 305 TPI:

http://www.iroc-z.com/articles/artic...ck,%201991.htm


As you can see all chips gave better performance, but some better than others.


A consider an off the shelf chip on a car with just bolt-ons to be similar in concept to someone buying a performance intake manifold and just bolting it on, compared to someone else who buys the same manifold and spends some extra time port matching it a bit further and so on to gain the very last scrap of performance from it. One is as good as it gets, the other is a lot better than stock, doesn't make it cr4ppy though...

 

If you're talking about mods like heads, cam, or forced induction, then the custom tuned chip is definately the way to go. The more modifications you do to your setup, the more it will benifit from a re-tune. This is even more apparent when you're talking forced induction. A proper tune thats matched to your components will always put down more power than an off the shelf chip that was tuned to a different set of components. Might be a 20rwhp difference to some setups, or 40rwhp to other setups. It all depends on the combo of parts you used and their potential. I know people that have gained 60rwhp just from a proper ECM custom re-tune done on a dyno. This is an extreme example (different platform, 30psi boost), but just goes to show how much of a difference it can make.

 

Why cant this just be let alone? Why is it, everytime a person asks about an aftermarket chip, it turns into a debate war? There is always at least one guy that will completely bash the MFR's and the guys that buy em just because "I can tune my own prom" and "If I can do it, so can you". And on a side note, if a person wants to bad enough, and some do, can have and use all machining equipment to turn, machine, and balance a motor, then assemble it, start it, break it in, and then tune it. Yes those people exist, am I one? No, but ill pay that guy to do the stuff i dont have the time for. Just like a chip.

If you can surf the web, use this site, then you can burn your own proms. I can also drive a car very well, but im not in any Busch Series races. It all depends what makes the owner of the car happy, not what makes the other guy happy. Yo do what is required when modifyingng a car. And if a semi stock car owner wants a lil kick in the pants, let the guy get the damn chip without being made to feel less superior to the guy that can o his own.

 

I guess if you dont understant what your missing, or what your not doing, then its impossible to explain to you. End of story.

If anyone wants to learn more about engine management, how a motor actually does run, etc, then read traxions, and my article on prom tuning.

Otherwise well. enjoy.

-- Joe

 

Never said I don't understand it...never said others couldn't either...never said that it would not be the way to go...just said it has the some ways to go before people get more comfortable with it...especially when all you hear is go look at at the other (same) 2 people on here with great setups...And just because people are not comfortable with it they shouldn't be put down....