i know this argument has probably been here 1000x before...

alright, i got a buddy here in NC that for the most part is more knowlegeable about cars than me, and he's telling me that a carb is nessesary to large power and that EFI chokes a motor. that just doesnt seem right to me as fuel injection is general considered much superior technology(at least in my circles). so hook me with some ammo if you could, or go ahead and tell me that im wrong as long as you break it down barney style for me.

 

The amazing thing about ignorant people is that they won't let any amount of facts change their mind.

You can waste your time trying if you want, but I'm not wasting mine.

 

jason.


this is the waterlevel. ----->




your head is here. -->





anyhoo, it depends on exactly what hes talking about. theres diffrent manifolds ect.... and diffrent ideas of "choking".
you have to be more specific.

for example:

the TBI intake like stock on my verts LO3 is crap.
the TPI intake some consider adaquate since it doesnt "choke" until high RPMs.
the LT1 intake flows great.. supports over 450 rwhp with minor porting
the LS1 intake flows great.
and thoes are just some intakes from Fbodys. some crap, some not.

same for carb intakes:
stock 305 low output motor intakes suck.
then there are some aftermarket ones like the torker II that some consider adaquate, but others feel it really chokes the motor.
there are dual plane intakes that flow great
there are single plane intakes that flow great
there are all kinds of queer multicarb setups that look and work great.




so you CAN make large power with EFI... and you can do the exact same thing with a carb. usually, the EFI costs more.

in anycase, he still probly knows more about cars then you. :lala:

 

MrDude,
you are such a nice guy, i wish my brother was like you


but hey thanks for telling me there is no answer. i guess there never is. let me correct my original post......what i really want is stuff that makes me right. hook it up

 

My understanding is that two motors with the [b]exact same[/i] cam/heads/exhaust/etc will make more power with carb than they will with most FI setups.

However, it will also get MUCH worse gas mileage. The FI car's advantage is that it's efficient. As a result, you can run more aggressive engine mods and it will remain streetable. It also runs leaner meaning increated engine longevity.

 

jason,
if we're talking in GENERAL and not SPECIFICs


car needs air and fuel.
they both supply them.

none has a max power advantage in itself.


its when you look at it thru other things.
like price of parts, or knowlage to tune (both carb and EFI)

thoes other things are what make people decide.

 

no help? fine. ill just make some stuff up. that works half the time anyway.

 

lol, dont do that.

if you dont know, then just dont say anything. youd need alot more background info then you have to make a good debate...

 

LOL! Yeah, you might wanna just lie.

If you take an engine and dyno it with a carb....then take the intake/carb off and slap on just about any normal production EFI system...its probably gonna make less power.

 

thanks ill just change the subject............but a tpi off a vette that had a 350 could still power a (slightly modified)350 without starving it for air, right? thats what brought all this up.

 

Could it power it? Sure. Why wouldn't it be able to?

It still won't make as much power as the exact same motor sporting a nicely tuned carb.

 

aaaauggghh. the whole superior technology thing was my whole arguement. oh well thanks for the help anyway.

 

The objective in creating FI was not performance. It was for fuel economy/engine longevity. It IS superior to a carb in those respects.

 

ill remember that the next time i have a fuel economy/engine longevity argument.

i can see it now....

"my geo gets 3 mpg more than your honda! uh-uh! uh-huh! uh-uh! uh-huh!.........."

im going to hell

 

Yeah....you sure are.

 

yea.. im related to him.






yea, it would go faster with a carb on it.

athough i wouldnt go that route... id either put a stealthram intake on (you have to buy/make a new plenum on top to clear the vettes low hoodline)

or

id mod a LT1 intake to fit.....

or

put a superram on.... depending on how slightly modified this 350 is.



TPI in stock form sucks.
the ecm and electronics are nice, but the long runners dont flow enough air for a performance engine.... (and before someone else reading this argues, no, he doesnt need a more indepth explanation then that... )

 

its a vette engine. its not in a vette though. so with the right intake and ecu the FI would make more power?

 

Another easily arguable point is most people say that a carb is much better because it has an (a) accelerator pump and (b) I'll slap a carb on that TPI and get it to run better.

(a) Fuel is good only to a certain amount. I can dump just as much fuel in my engine with my Mega Squirt as you can with your carb.

(b) They are basically saying let me put a good aftermarket manifold on a good aftermarket carb and an afternoon of tuning and it will run better than your Stock TPI. Well no duh! Let me do the same with your carbed engine and spoil that argument!

 

id bet you $50 (for real) its not a vette motor.

dude, they look the same externally for the most part

they both have identical looking TPI (except for some minor details only hardcore guys have memorized)


it looks like it, and jackasses say they have a corvette motor all the time.

they said that about the CFI in my pace car.

they say it about any TPI motor

they say it about any LT1

they say it about any LS1... they say it and jump and point if you click on the $50 fuel rail covers that say "Corvette" on them.. lol.



the guy doesnt have a vette motor. in 92, the vette had the LT1. from the mid 80s till 91 it had TPI.

and even if he did have a vette motor, it doesnt matter.


TPI VETTES ARE SLOW. like TPI cars.


swap the intake (i'll help ya) and do some minor mods and we'll get ya sqeeking the 13s... that'll be good enough to beat most cars you see on the street.

 

just FYI... the ECM looks at the TPS and does its own "accelerator pump" shoot anyway... so that arguement is moot. lol

btw, who the hell said that? new to me.

 

Carb will still make more power.

 

Only in Tele-tubby land!

 

thats right below cloud nine in la-la land right?

hey bear with the less educated here aight?

 

Its not based so much on the fuel injection as it is on the intake manifold. I can give you a stock LG4 carb intake, and no matter who you are with what carb and tuning skills, you won't make more power than a Stealth-rammed motor.

The same can be said when giving someone a Torker II or a Performer RPM or a Victor Jr carb intake and giving the other guy a stock TPI setup and telling him to make some power.

It can really go either way. I guess the test would be to take two IDENTICAL cars with two IDENTICALLY-built motors, and give one guy his choice of carb intake and one guy his choice of FI intake and see what happens.

The other huge advantage to a FI setup is that you can adjust timing anywhere you want to get the most out of every RPM band. You can't do that with a carb, you can only choose how much initial timing, how much total timing, and how quickly it reaches total timing. Sometimes a motor will want more timing at one RPM and then less at a higher one and then more again, etc. etc. You *CAN* tune to that motor's likings with FI whereas you can't so much with a carb.

Then if you really wanted to you could program highway mode to be enabled at 25mph or so and make your own settings up for all of that and use that as a gas-friendly setup for normal driving. Set the throttle threshold for that at a higher setting, and then you can have a motor as efficient as stock for most of the time, yet when you hit WOT or close to WOT, you can have a motor with a lot more power. Can't do that with carbs..

 

Id say your not camparing apples to apples. If one guy can buy an aftermarket carb stup, so can the EFI guy. for exactly the same amount of money a carb setup will probably make more power than an EFI but if money is no object, there are lots of EFI stups that make more power than carbs. Hell there are even a few EFI etups that look almost like a carb, but its just a throttle body. Aftermarket carb vs stock TPI, TPI is the losser.

 

all other things being equal, i would say it's easier & cheaper to make big numbers with a carb than EFI, but, if you have a EFI setup that can flow as much as the carb setup & they are both tuned right, the EFI would edge out the carb & be more streetable.
anyone remember that tuning guru that was on the tv show, i think it was "rides" that had the 1200 horse street driven EFI vette?

 

It was Rides. The episode when they built the "Fast-Forward Fast-Back" Mustang for Ebay.

 

DURTYBIRD quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jarhead1
its a vette engine. its not in a vette though. so with the right intake and ecu the FI would make more power?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only in Tele-tubby land!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so with the right intake and ecu the FI Would make more power?

 

Sounds like someone isn't listening... IT DOESN'T MATTER. Daily driven Street car = EFI cause it is more efficent and more tuneable. Straight up Race car = Carb or EFI depending on how much money you have and what you know best.

If it were me I'd build an EFI race car because I have never touched a carb other than the one that is on my little nitro R/C car... but my friend Ben's dad would build a Carb race motor because that is what he grew up with... and I had to explain to him how his TBI on his 454SS worked like 3 times... before i gave up.

 

Mr. Dude,
All of the people I argue argue that. I never can get them to change their minds most of the time either. Nice to argue with you instead of agianst you for once.

 

jason, EFI is fuel control.

its all about control. control of the fuel is the ONLY advantage of efi.

to make MAX power, you only need X amount of fuel. a carb can easily be setup for max power at WOT. but injectors can be setup to spray the same amount of fuel.

so for max power, its a moot point. the fuel is there either way.


so then theres the AIR... this is the intake manifolds job.
up until 96 when the LT1 was released, most EFI manifolds flow crap for air. most STOCK ones still do... notible exceptions are the LSx motors and the LT1 intake. its because for years and years that EFI intakes flowed like crap, some people think carbs are faster.

fact is, you need to just get air in efficently.


with the air inlets flowing equal (taking into account that the carb flows fuel with the air in the manifold, and the EFI one is dry), powerwise, they are equal.



now, there are some tricks can do with carbs that are either hard to do, or impossible...
examples are:
highway mode. run leaner, use less fuel, ect on the hwy, and then switching into power mode when you floor it..
boost.. since you have better fuel control, when you shove air in with a turbo or supercharger, you can keep a more accurate fuel ratio... its because of EFI that turbos and superchargers are as common as they are...

 

VERY UNLIKELY.

Here's a real generic example:

Motor built with FI intake gets tuned/dynoed.
take off the FI intake, and put a carb&intake in place
tune carb properly.
dyno again.
Voila! More power!

There may be some exceptions, but generally this will be the case.

HTH!

 

Psst... LT1 came out in the vette in '92.

Carb will probably still outperform an LSx intake given the same set of heads. Not sure if there is a carb intake out yet for the LSx engines.

 

i knew that.... uhh, i was just testing you... lol


yea, LT1 came out in the vette in 92, LT1 was in the fbody in 93

for some reason i said 96... donno where that came from... in 97 the C5 with the LS1 came out... in 98, the fbody got the LS1.

 

lol....

 

There is I saw it on HotRod TV or something like that at SEMA 2003 I think it was. Don't know what ever happened with it or if it even went into production, but they had it for display at SEMA, thats all I remember.

EDIT: Eddy's got it...
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/man_chevy_ls1.html

EDIT 2: They claim 410 hp with the intake and cam, which I can only assume is at the crank, and I have 2 friends making 400whp with only cam and long tubes (one is 411, one is 395) on thier LS1's.

EFI OWNZZ j00

 

edelbrock makes it.

basicly its a kit, not jsut the intake..

it has a ignition only "ECM" that looks kinda like a MSD box. it runs the spark and uses the stock sensors.


the intake bolts in place and lets you use a carb.

you still have to figure out oil pressure and temp gauges. along with fan control, fuel pump turn on, ect.... everything the stock ECM does.

 

I can't believe this is turning into such a big debate considering the answer is obvious, although not an easy one line answer.

If money is a factor it's far easier to make more power for less money from a carb, period the end. You can't argue this point. If you do you will lose.

However EFI is infinately more tunable. Common sense dictates that if you take money out of the equation (ie: open your mind and forget about comparing specific stock or aftermarket parts) EFI is going to be the winner in the power game. If you can control the air and fuel better you can make more power. EFI gives you this ability. You aren't going to do it with a stock TPI though. It takes money, deep pockets, and someone with a hell of a lot of EFI knowledge.

If that doesn't answer your original question then I'm at a loss. EFI is the true winner. You just have to know how to argue your point.

 

umm, there isnt a debate.


a debate would envolve some kind of problem or choice, with people taking sides in a effort to change someones point of view.


frankly, i think we should just stick to the facts. theres pros and cons to each. if you lay out all the facts in a un-biased way, you'll find that the correct answer is diffrent for diffrent people.

thats why anyone that says either one is better, is being ignorant.


there are conditions that let each one be better then the other.

as to the max power at WOT thing, everything being equal, the results would be too. the diff isnt WOT fuel mixing. its everything but.

 

Durtybird,
Please explain to me HOW a carb makes more power, or for that matter anyone. It is much like what Mr. Dude said in an earlier post...I am not going to quote or repeat all of that though.

 

:werd:

 

I'm not positive HOW it happens, I've just seen the results with my own eyes is all.

My only theory as to WHY this happens is that when you are approaching the maximum CFM of the intake setup, carbs have less bends/restrictions in air flow. An engine is like an air pump...more air in/out faster = more power.

Take the LT1 intake as an example. Follow the long flow of air through the air filter, up into a 90* bend, along a tube to the MAF sensor. Then another 90* bend...and FINALLY the throttle body. Then ANOTHER 90* turn into the runners...work past the injectors that jut a little into the way...then into the head. All the individual components of the air intake can handle the airflow, but they still have a cumulative effect of slowing the air down. Again, I dont know if this is fact - just a theory.

With a carb, you only have one 90* turn (sometimes not, depends on the type of carb), past the venturi, a 45* turn into the runner and into the head.

The LSx are the most efficient GM intake systems to date (good intake with terrific heads).

Remember that normally aspirated intakes use vacuum created by the cylinders to generate airflow. If you were running, would you rather breathe open air or through a tube with bends in it?

 

but what if you have a carb-type fuel injection manifold ... THEN you have no venturi's to go past, so shoulfnt FI make more power in that case according to your theory? Like they said, given no limit on cash, and the choice of whatever FI system vs. Carb/intake you want they will come out equal at WOT. Now if you are comparing a stock production EFI intake with an aftermarket carb intake its a different story, which is what you are saying. I know I just regurgitated what 567bagillion people already said, but i guess some people need ot hear it again. Or read it rather

 

to make it fair, compare that to the stock air carbed intake


it picks up air thru a thin scoop. bends slightly and goes past this warm up valve thingy.. the area open is TINY, with a butterfly valve in the middle.
from there it goes into this thin round box, making a sharp turn around it. then it has to go thru a small filter, then a SHARP 90* turn into the bores. from there it goes past the choke, thru the carb, and the restriction of the venturi (by design).. then thru a ill flowing intake manifold.



then again, if you're going to change thoes parts, why not change the EFI parts too?



i'll repeat.

 

It's really 6 one, half dozen to the other. I choose carb mainly because I have a family, car payment, house payment, blah blah blah. I can't blow money on my car like I used to be able too. It's also not a daily driver and only gets driven for fun or at the track sooooooooooo

I'd rather spend $4,000 dollars on a carbed engine and run High 10's... Then spend $4,000 dollars on just the fuel system. But, if you've got no obligations and money to blow, by all means I'd love to have an awesome FI system - for several reasons, but when it's all over - I still have to put food on the table at night; injectors don't taste very good... LOL

 

Neither one will make more "power" than the other. As long as you deliver the same amount of fuel and air into the engine they will make the same power. Power is directly related to the fuel/air combo, there are only so many BTU's in a given amount of fuel/air and the BTU's are what is actually making the power.
Where FI out shines a carb is more precise and even fuel metering, meaning that the mixture can be better controlled so that none of the potential power in the fuel/air mixture is wasted and allows you to extract the maximum power from the mixture.
Given the same intake tract design, length etc, FI can make the same amount of power as a properly tuned carb while using less fuel.
For proof of this just look at aircraft reciprocating engines, they have been fuel injected for many decades...Why? For better control of fueling and better fuel economy.
Granted FI costs more, because it consists of many different precision parts and because of supply and demand.

 

...and a carb isn't going to adjust itself and the ignition system over 16,000 times per second to accomodate varying air temps, fuel quality, coolant temps, etc...

 

thanks for clearing up my argument, and appreciate everyone who took my side. good looking out. i must admit i learned a good deal reading the different points of veiw and looking up the things you wrote.:hail:

 

This isn't a "your side" vs. "his side". For the original question of "which makes more power"...you guys are both even. For which one has more features and tunability, FI. For which one is easier to get power out of, probably a carb. However, I know nothing about carbs and understand FI tuning a bit, so its easier for me to get more power out of an FI setup. Then there are people that know nothing about FI tuning and can tune a carb like nobody else.

How about you just give him the link to this thread and tell him to read up on it?