Need some TPI thoughts. This isnt the usual thread.
Need some TPI thoughts. This isnt the usual thread.
This might be long, but you prob wont mind. These mods are for my 1988 4+3 Vette.
I was thinking "if" i keep the car and a do the motor, i had something in mind. You see I have always wanted a stock looking TPI that moves. Goals were always mid 12's @110-113. as you know i bought the miniram intake, but there are 3 problems with this intake meaning:harder to tune/doesnt look anything close to stock/i will need gears for it to be truly effective, correct? You probably agree.
The heads i currently have are the TFS-30400007 heads. That is the Summit part #. They are 62cc/195cc and they flow 260/185 at .550 lift. I also have a LPE 219/219 cam with .525/.525 or with 1.6's .560.560, and I also have a new Accel lower intake that I will be using if I go the TPI route.
Now there arent too many guys that have tryed to bolt on a TPI like looking intake. When I say TPI I dont mean the stock one, I mean the accel lower/aftermarket runners/ported plenuem. From what I researched so far, This combo flows in the 230cfm range, compared to the stock intake that flows 195cfm or so. So a somewhat improvement.
One of the biggest thing's is I dont want to change my gears. The car has a 4+3 tranny with 3.07's and at 60 MPH in top gear I rev at 1650, and I really dont want to rev any higher. I would, but I dont want too, plus the cost of changing the gears isnt cheap, and for those who know me, know my girlfriend is in school right now, and things are somewhat tight. They won't be in a year or so, but they are right now.
Since my heads flow 260cfm roughly, I wanted to find an intake that would match that, and the only one was really the miniram, and the superram would of been close but it would of needed a port job, and I wasnt going to be the price for the pizza box, and then have it ported.
This is what I think: "TPI"=Accel base/aftermarket runners/ported plenuem
Superram/TFS/219=330rwhp/370rwtq=3.45 gears would be the best imo.
Miniram/TFS/219=350rwhp/350rwtq=3.73 gears would work nicely.
TPI/TFS/219=310rwhp/385rwtq=3.07 would be perfect.
Those dyno runs are obviously give or take a few. But they are within reason. The above are going to be on my 72000 mile bottom end with a CR of around 9.8-1.
Now this brings me to this: What would happen if the TPI was extrude honed?
http://users.adelphia.net/~lebeter/a...ap/page2-1.htm This website mentions that extrude honing a accel base/accel runners yields cfm # or around 266cfm. This would be a good match for my heads, Dont you think? Wouldnt this give me somewhat best of both worlds. A much more flowing stock TPI that I can use my stock 3.07's? I just dont know how much extrude honeing is........I have always been told. It’s the total package that matters meaning matching the heads with the intake, and too the cam. BTW, I don’t have to go with the LPE 219 cam, but I do have to go with an emissions friendly cam what can be tuned.
Anyways, Like to get your opinion.
Rick Hueson.
Who here had extrude honed there TPI's ot heavily ported them with concrete flow #'s or results?
I was thinking "if" i keep the car and a do the motor, i had something in mind. You see I have always wanted a stock looking TPI that moves. Goals were always mid 12's @110-113. as you know i bought the miniram intake, but there are 3 problems with this intake meaning:harder to tune/doesnt look anything close to stock/i will need gears for it to be truly effective, correct? You probably agree.
The heads i currently have are the TFS-30400007 heads. That is the Summit part #. They are 62cc/195cc and they flow 260/185 at .550 lift. I also have a LPE 219/219 cam with .525/.525 or with 1.6's .560.560, and I also have a new Accel lower intake that I will be using if I go the TPI route.
Now there arent too many guys that have tryed to bolt on a TPI like looking intake. When I say TPI I dont mean the stock one, I mean the accel lower/aftermarket runners/ported plenuem. From what I researched so far, This combo flows in the 230cfm range, compared to the stock intake that flows 195cfm or so. So a somewhat improvement.
One of the biggest thing's is I dont want to change my gears. The car has a 4+3 tranny with 3.07's and at 60 MPH in top gear I rev at 1650, and I really dont want to rev any higher. I would, but I dont want too, plus the cost of changing the gears isnt cheap, and for those who know me, know my girlfriend is in school right now, and things are somewhat tight. They won't be in a year or so, but they are right now.
Since my heads flow 260cfm roughly, I wanted to find an intake that would match that, and the only one was really the miniram, and the superram would of been close but it would of needed a port job, and I wasnt going to be the price for the pizza box, and then have it ported.
This is what I think: "TPI"=Accel base/aftermarket runners/ported plenuem
Superram/TFS/219=330rwhp/370rwtq=3.45 gears would be the best imo.
Miniram/TFS/219=350rwhp/350rwtq=3.73 gears would work nicely.
TPI/TFS/219=310rwhp/385rwtq=3.07 would be perfect.
Those dyno runs are obviously give or take a few. But they are within reason. The above are going to be on my 72000 mile bottom end with a CR of around 9.8-1.
Now this brings me to this: What would happen if the TPI was extrude honed?
http://users.adelphia.net/~lebeter/a...ap/page2-1.htm This website mentions that extrude honing a accel base/accel runners yields cfm # or around 266cfm. This would be a good match for my heads, Dont you think? Wouldnt this give me somewhat best of both worlds. A much more flowing stock TPI that I can use my stock 3.07's? I just dont know how much extrude honeing is........I have always been told. It’s the total package that matters meaning matching the heads with the intake, and too the cam. BTW, I don’t have to go with the LPE 219 cam, but I do have to go with an emissions friendly cam what can be tuned.
Anyways, Like to get your opinion.
Rick Hueson.
Who here had extrude honed there TPI's ot heavily ported them with concrete flow #'s or results?
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 176
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From: Oklahoma
Car: BMW 335i
Engine: N55 turbo 6
Hey rick, good to have you here...I know you have a vette, but this is by far the best TPI resource on the net and the guys dont mind talking vette's, camaro's, firebirds or anything else that could possibly have a TPI motor in it. Welcome aboard 
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 599
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From: Glenbeulah, WI
Car: 1988 Firbird
Engine: 406
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Rick,
You can achieve part of your goal of mid 12’s with a TPI style intake but I do not believe you will be able to run 110 to 113 MPH with the TPI intake on a 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression. To run 110 to 114 MPH you will need around 330 to 340 RWHP which is 400 HP at the engine. A 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression spinning less then 5000 RPM will have a hard time making 400 HP.
I had a very similar combination in my vette to your proposed set-up and I ran mid 12’s at 106 MPH with it. My old combination was 355, 10.25 to 1 compression, 195cc trick flow heads, headers, TPIS big mouth base, TPIS large tube runners, ZZ-9, and assorted free mods. The car put down 276 RWHP @ 5000 RPM and 350ish RWTQ @ 3900 RPM which then ran the above listed times. You are talking about extruding honing the intake which may add some power but I would not expect to see major changes from what I ran.
The problem with the TPI intake is not so much its ultimate flow numbers, it is the runner length. The length of the runners tunes the intake so it wants to make power at or below 5000 RPM. The 260 CFM flow of the extruded honed intake is more air then the 350 will be able to use at 5000 RPM or less. The added air flow potential will not hurt you it just won’t add much more power then the 230 CFM of the non-extruded honed intake.
On my car I changed decided to change from the large tube intake to the superram and changed nothing else. That one change changed my power output to 316 RWHP @ 5200 RPM and 376 RWTQ @ 4200 RPM. The ET then changed to 12.30’s at 110 MPH. I then changed to the 219 cam and 3” dual exhaust and the power went to 342 RWHP and 382 RWTQ, and the ET went 11.81 at 114 MPH.
What I am telling you is the large tube system that you are proposing will probably meet your ET goals but not you MPH goals. To meet your MPH goals you will need the Superram or miniram that you already own.
You can achieve part of your goal of mid 12’s with a TPI style intake but I do not believe you will be able to run 110 to 113 MPH with the TPI intake on a 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression. To run 110 to 114 MPH you will need around 330 to 340 RWHP which is 400 HP at the engine. A 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression spinning less then 5000 RPM will have a hard time making 400 HP.
I had a very similar combination in my vette to your proposed set-up and I ran mid 12’s at 106 MPH with it. My old combination was 355, 10.25 to 1 compression, 195cc trick flow heads, headers, TPIS big mouth base, TPIS large tube runners, ZZ-9, and assorted free mods. The car put down 276 RWHP @ 5000 RPM and 350ish RWTQ @ 3900 RPM which then ran the above listed times. You are talking about extruding honing the intake which may add some power but I would not expect to see major changes from what I ran.
The problem with the TPI intake is not so much its ultimate flow numbers, it is the runner length. The length of the runners tunes the intake so it wants to make power at or below 5000 RPM. The 260 CFM flow of the extruded honed intake is more air then the 350 will be able to use at 5000 RPM or less. The added air flow potential will not hurt you it just won’t add much more power then the 230 CFM of the non-extruded honed intake.
On my car I changed decided to change from the large tube intake to the superram and changed nothing else. That one change changed my power output to 316 RWHP @ 5200 RPM and 376 RWTQ @ 4200 RPM. The ET then changed to 12.30’s at 110 MPH. I then changed to the 219 cam and 3” dual exhaust and the power went to 342 RWHP and 382 RWTQ, and the ET went 11.81 at 114 MPH.
What I am telling you is the large tube system that you are proposing will probably meet your ET goals but not you MPH goals. To meet your MPH goals you will need the Superram or miniram that you already own.
Originally posted by bjankuski
Rick,
You can achieve part of your goal of mid 12’s with a TPI style intake but I do not believe you will be able to run 110 to 113 MPH with the TPI intake on a 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression. To run 110 to 114 MPH you will need around 330 to 340 RWHP which is 400 HP at the engine. A 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression spinning less then 5000 RPM will have a hard time making 400 HP.
I had a very similar combination in my vette to your proposed set-up and I ran mid 12’s at 106 MPH with it. My old combination was 355, 10.25 to 1 compression, 195cc trick flow heads, headers, TPIS big mouth base, TPIS large tube runners, ZZ-9, and assorted free mods. The car put down 276 RWHP @ 5000 RPM and 350ish RWTQ @ 3900 RPM which then ran the above listed times. You are talking about extruding honing the intake which may add some power but I would not expect to see major changes from what I ran.
The problem with the TPI intake is not so much its ultimate flow numbers, it is the runner length. The length of the runners tunes the intake so it wants to make power at or below 5000 RPM. The 260 CFM flow of the extruded honed intake is more air then the 350 will be able to use at 5000 RPM or less. The added air flow potential will not hurt you it just won’t add much more power then the 230 CFM of the non-extruded honed intake.
On my car I changed decided to change from the large tube intake to the superram and changed nothing else. That one change changed my power output to 316 RWHP @ 5200 RPM and 376 RWTQ @ 4200 RPM. The ET then changed to 12.30’s at 110 MPH. I then changed to the 219 cam and 3” dual exhaust and the power went to 342 RWHP and 382 RWTQ, and the ET went 11.81 at 114 MPH.
What I am telling you is the large tube system that you are proposing will probably meet your ET goals but not you MPH goals. To meet your MPH goals you will need the Superram or miniram that you already own.
Rick,
You can achieve part of your goal of mid 12’s with a TPI style intake but I do not believe you will be able to run 110 to 113 MPH with the TPI intake on a 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression. To run 110 to 114 MPH you will need around 330 to 340 RWHP which is 400 HP at the engine. A 350 with 9.5 to 1 compression spinning less then 5000 RPM will have a hard time making 400 HP.
I had a very similar combination in my vette to your proposed set-up and I ran mid 12’s at 106 MPH with it. My old combination was 355, 10.25 to 1 compression, 195cc trick flow heads, headers, TPIS big mouth base, TPIS large tube runners, ZZ-9, and assorted free mods. The car put down 276 RWHP @ 5000 RPM and 350ish RWTQ @ 3900 RPM which then ran the above listed times. You are talking about extruding honing the intake which may add some power but I would not expect to see major changes from what I ran.
The problem with the TPI intake is not so much its ultimate flow numbers, it is the runner length. The length of the runners tunes the intake so it wants to make power at or below 5000 RPM. The 260 CFM flow of the extruded honed intake is more air then the 350 will be able to use at 5000 RPM or less. The added air flow potential will not hurt you it just won’t add much more power then the 230 CFM of the non-extruded honed intake.
On my car I changed decided to change from the large tube intake to the superram and changed nothing else. That one change changed my power output to 316 RWHP @ 5200 RPM and 376 RWTQ @ 4200 RPM. The ET then changed to 12.30’s at 110 MPH. I then changed to the 219 cam and 3” dual exhaust and the power went to 342 RWHP and 382 RWTQ, and the ET went 11.81 at 114 MPH.
What I am telling you is the large tube system that you are proposing will probably meet your ET goals but not you MPH goals. To meet your MPH goals you will need the Superram or miniram that you already own.
Also were these with a Vette or an F-body?
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Feb 1, 2006 at 04:08 PM.
Supreme Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,627
Likes: 3
From: Southwest Florida
Car: projects.......
- Have you looked at the FIRST system? - Looks very similar to the stock TPI, but is very different. - Shorter runners(lower plenum) shorter cross-section in the base... - To simply pop the hood, most would say its a TPI. You'd have to konw what you're looking at to know the truth. - I think it'd put you right on track w/ the goals you have. - It is all different than a stock intake though, so it won't accept any of the stock pieces...- You'd need the complete intake and fuel rails to set-it up in place of a TPI...
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,262
Likes: 1
From: houston
Car: 83 POS monte carlo 2015 chevy P/U
Engine: 92 5.7 tpi 5.3
Transmission: 700r4 6L60E
Axle/Gears: 2.42 too high
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
From: Oklahoma
Car: BMW 335i
Engine: N55 turbo 6
Originally posted by Shagwell
- Have you looked at the FIRST system? - Looks very similar to the stock TPI, but is very different. - Shorter runners(lower plenum) shorter cross-section in the base... - To simply pop the hood, most would say its a TPI. You'd have to konw what you're looking at to know the truth. - I think it'd put you right on track w/ the goals you have. - It is all different than a stock intake though, so it won't accept any of the stock pieces...- You'd need the complete intake and fuel rails to set-it up in place of a TPI...
- Have you looked at the FIRST system? - Looks very similar to the stock TPI, but is very different. - Shorter runners(lower plenum) shorter cross-section in the base... - To simply pop the hood, most would say its a TPI. You'd have to konw what you're looking at to know the truth. - I think it'd put you right on track w/ the goals you have. - It is all different than a stock intake though, so it won't accept any of the stock pieces...- You'd need the complete intake and fuel rails to set-it up in place of a TPI...
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,262
Likes: 1
From: houston
Car: 83 POS monte carlo 2015 chevy P/U
Engine: 92 5.7 tpi 5.3
Transmission: 700r4 6L60E
Axle/Gears: 2.42 too high
as far as looking stock, i give the FIRST setup a 80% rating, its close enough that only people who know what a factory TPI intake looks like would know something is up.
he can go to the FIRST site & then go to the Gallery or Products & then click on the pictures to get a good ideal of how close they are to the factory look.
he can go to the FIRST site & then go to the Gallery or Products & then click on the pictures to get a good ideal of how close they are to the factory look.
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
From: Oklahoma
Car: BMW 335i
Engine: N55 turbo 6
Originally posted by DENN_SHAH
as far as looking stock, i give the FIRST setup a 80% rating, its close enough that only people who know what a factory TPI intake looks like would know something is up.
he can go to the FIRST site & then go to the Gallery or Products & then click on the pictures to get a good ideal of how close they are to the factory look.
as far as looking stock, i give the FIRST setup a 80% rating, its close enough that only people who know what a factory TPI intake looks like would know something is up.
he can go to the FIRST site & then go to the Gallery or Products & then click on the pictures to get a good ideal of how close they are to the factory look.
I wonder where he's been
Senior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Windsor Ontario Canada
Car: 89 jaguar xjs convertable
Engine: 89 L98 5.7 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 dana 44
Hi Rick
For what it is worth now, I called for a price on extrude honing my tpi stuff and the prices were as follows.
Base $375.00
Runners $215.00
The guys name is Rick Miller. RickM@extrudehone.com
Considering your financial obligations (I'm in the exact same boat as you right now!!) it sounds a little cost prohibitive.
For what it is worth now, I called for a price on extrude honing my tpi stuff and the prices were as follows.
Base $375.00
Runners $215.00
The guys name is Rick Miller. RickM@extrudehone.com
Considering your financial obligations (I'm in the exact same boat as you right now!!) it sounds a little cost prohibitive.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Might check out my post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=342281
350, ported AFR 190, ported Edelbrock base, stock runner, mostly stock plenum (no EGR walls, welded and opened to 58mm), 58mm TB, and the only main difference is a much different cam than the 219, comp 280XFI. 331 at the wheels, with an automatic trans.
It looks like a stock TPI, but doesnt run like one
I think your goals can be achieved with what you are looking at, should get you pretty close and maybe a tweak here or there will put you at the right spot.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=342281
350, ported AFR 190, ported Edelbrock base, stock runner, mostly stock plenum (no EGR walls, welded and opened to 58mm), 58mm TB, and the only main difference is a much different cam than the 219, comp 280XFI. 331 at the wheels, with an automatic trans.
It looks like a stock TPI, but doesnt run like one
I think your goals can be achieved with what you are looking at, should get you pretty close and maybe a tweak here or there will put you at the right spot.
Originally posted by madmax
Might check out my post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=342281
350, ported AFR 190, ported Edelbrock base, stock runner, mostly stock plenum (no EGR walls, welded and opened to 58mm), 58mm TB, and the only main difference is a much different cam than the 219, comp 280XFI. 331 at the wheels, with an automatic trans.
It looks like a stock TPI, but doesnt run like one
I think your goals can be achieved with what you are looking at, should get you pretty close and maybe a tweak here or there will put you at the right spot.
Might check out my post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=342281
350, ported AFR 190, ported Edelbrock base, stock runner, mostly stock plenum (no EGR walls, welded and opened to 58mm), 58mm TB, and the only main difference is a much different cam than the 219, comp 280XFI. 331 at the wheels, with an automatic trans.
It looks like a stock TPI, but doesnt run like one
I think your goals can be achieved with what you are looking at, should get you pretty close and maybe a tweak here or there will put you at the right spot.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I dont know what the TPI itself flows, but I have the info on the heads.
Since tables dont post too well, this is lift, intake flow, exhaust flow:
0.100 77.8, 60.4
0.200 141.8, 108.3
0.300 207.4, 150.4
0.400 246.0, 187.0
0.500 271.5, 199.8
0.600 285.2, 209.0
Desktop Dyno says:
448tq@4500
433hp@5500
Optimistic IMO.
Chart is this:
I still think the 219, your TFS heads, and a ported TPI is going to get you close. Corvettes are always a little faster than the F-bods and the only thing lacking is not having the superram from the desired ET and MPH you posted. I see people hitting those numbers all the time with SR, AFR's, and the 219 cam, its a cookie cutter recipie for mid 12's. You might fall a bit short on the MPH (its a TPI) but I think you can get close on the ET's if not hit that... pretty much what was said above by the guy who's been down the path.
If you read the other post you noticed we were having shifting issues, more specifically downshifting at a rediculous speed. Here's what happens to a dyno when the car does something it shouldnt, and likely explains why the tires break loose at high speeds on the 3-2.
http://home.earthlink.net/~chris.foster/run2.jpg
Obviously the numbers are meaningless... kinda torque spiked the poor dyno.
Since tables dont post too well, this is lift, intake flow, exhaust flow:
0.100 77.8, 60.4
0.200 141.8, 108.3
0.300 207.4, 150.4
0.400 246.0, 187.0
0.500 271.5, 199.8
0.600 285.2, 209.0
Desktop Dyno says:
448tq@4500
433hp@5500
Optimistic IMO.
Chart is this:
I still think the 219, your TFS heads, and a ported TPI is going to get you close. Corvettes are always a little faster than the F-bods and the only thing lacking is not having the superram from the desired ET and MPH you posted. I see people hitting those numbers all the time with SR, AFR's, and the 219 cam, its a cookie cutter recipie for mid 12's. You might fall a bit short on the MPH (its a TPI) but I think you can get close on the ET's if not hit that... pretty much what was said above by the guy who's been down the path.
If you read the other post you noticed we were having shifting issues, more specifically downshifting at a rediculous speed. Here's what happens to a dyno when the car does something it shouldnt, and likely explains why the tires break loose at high speeds on the 3-2.
http://home.earthlink.net/~chris.foster/run2.jpg
Obviously the numbers are meaningless... kinda torque spiked the poor dyno.
Last edited by madmax; Feb 10, 2006 at 10:30 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,187
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From: E.B.F. TN
Car: Tree Huggers
Engine: Do Not
Transmission: Appreciate Me.
Madmax the bloody hack! 
MM have you tried getting a set of AS&M's to toss on yet? If not, and if Chris gets done with them I may send you out mine fr testing.
I'd also love to see the results if you popped in Chris' cam into that set-up. Damn boy hasn't run the car yet, though I may bring it to the track when he brings the S ther and run 'em both.
MM have you tried getting a set of AS&M's to toss on yet? If not, and if Chris gets done with them I may send you out mine fr testing.
I'd also love to see the results if you popped in Chris' cam into that set-up. Damn boy hasn't run the car yet, though I may bring it to the track when he brings the S ther and run 'em both. 
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