i was planning on doing a holley stealth ram on my car. right nowi have a stock L98. but i've been seeing so many people doing edelbrock base's with bigger runners. which is a better set up? im going to be getting the aluminum L98 heads and get them re valved and toss an lt4 hotcam in with 1.6 RR. just looking for a little advice from you experienced tpi guys.

 

Do you have to worry about smog?

 

Before anybody can fully answer your question, we would need to know what your plans are for this vehicle. Are you planning to build up a serious street/strip car? A track only car? Or are you just looking to get a little more power out of a daily driver?

Both the HSR and TPI systems have their pro's and con's and choosing the right style intake is vital, in being able to accomplish whatever goals it is you have for your L98.

 

dont have to worry about smog. and im trying to build a serious street/strip car. mainly a summer driver that would go to the track every weekend or so.

 

i would say go for the hsr or a mini ram or a lt1 intake conversion you will get way better all around performance from any of these intakes.

 

ajk511, I sent you a PM with my views on the pro's and con's of both TPI and the HSR. I know it's a bit long, but it should at least give you an idea of what to expect when going with an HSR. I was going to post my thoughts here, but decided it was too long and would probably cause a huge argument given the fact there are so many HSR fans on this forum.

Let me know if it helps you to make a decision.



- By the way, you should have received 2 emails from me in regards to the subject. Sorry. I had to split it up into 2 emails 'cause there's a limit of "7500 characters" allowed per message.

I got a little too detailed in my response and it wouldn't fit in one email

 

LT1FUN you should have left your post intact. You made some good points. Don't worry about the flame wars.

 

thanx for the help guys. LT1fan im getting settled down to read your book right now, lol. thanx for the info.

 

LT1Fun just talked me out of the HSR, lol.

 

Thanks, but like I said, I've seen more than a few debates get a little out of hand on this subject and didn't want to throw fuel into the fire by posting my thoughts here which may be viewed as "anti HSR" .

However, if ajk511 wants to post up a copy of my PM to him, he's free to do so. So far, 3 other people have requested a copy of my PM so if anybody wants to post it, the choice is there's.

 

I've been noticing for a while now,that the growing trend on this forum is to automatically recommend an HSR no matter what it is the person who started the thread is looking to accomplish.

- If someone asks which TPI runners they should go with, (like AS&M or TPIS for example) the first 10 responses are "Get an HSR!"

- If someone asks whether they should spend money porting out the stock base or just pick up an Edelbrock base instead, the first 10 responses are "Get an HSR!"

- Hell, even when a person specifically states that he/she PREFERS to stay with TPI, the first 10 responses are, "Well, you REALLY should consider going with the HSR"

The HSR is not going to magically transform your L98 into a fire-breathing horsepower factory on wheels no matter what anybody on here tells you. The fact of the matter is, bolting an HSR onto a basically stock motor such as yours, will actually HURT your performance, not help it. You have to keep in mind that both intake's are designed with different purposes in mind and there's simply no "one size fit's all" recommendation on which route everyone should take.

Many will argue that buying an HSR will cost less than having to upgrade your runners/base. While this may be true in the short term, unfortunately, you can't just slap on an HSR, call it a day and get huge power gains. It just doesn't work that way.

TPI was designed to accel at producing tonnes of low-mid range torque and it does so, very well. Unfortunately, the very same reasons why it makes so much low-end torque, are the same reasons that limit it's breathing potential at higher RPM's. Using the factory TPI, these motor's will simply run out of breath at 4800rpm. That's when you'll hit the infamous "TPI wall" the point at which the motor no longer "pulls" once its hit that RPM.
With an after-market TPI base, larger runners, and a ported plenum, you can extend your operating range to about 5500 tops, (if you know what your doing and you've got the right heads and cam) but that's about as far as you'll be able to go with TPI.

This is where the HSR comes in. While it may not have the same low-mid range torque as TPI, the bright side is, right around the time TPI starts running out of breath, the HSR keeps on pulling. It's from 5000+ that the HSR really starts to show it's advantage over TPI.

So why do I have a problem recommending the HSR for every 3rd gen owner out there? Especially those who aren't trying to build all out street/strip cars? Simple.

Everybody likes to recommend the HSR but rarely do these people ever mention the accompaning mods NEEDED in order to truly take advantage of the HSR's breathing potential over TPI.

Going with an HSR will cause you to lose low-mid range torque. That's a fact. HSR fans are quick to dance around that point by claiming that your not really losing torque, it's just that your torque has been "moved up in the power-band" I've always thought that argument was lame. It's like arguing whether a glass is half empty or half full. Truth is, it's both. It just depends on which way you want to look at it.


Take the following as an example.

If someone's making an average of 300lbs of torque between 2000-4500rpm, and they do something to the motor which lowers that average torque output down to (for example) 275lbs of torque in that same RPM range, they just LOST torque!!! That's the bottom line. They may be making more "peak" torque than before but that's not the point. Nobody's arguing that the HSR doesn't make more torque at say, 5500rpm, than a TPI set-up, but your gaining that peak torque at the expense of losing it down low.

"All you need to do is add some lower gears and throw in a higher stall torque converter" is always the response whenever someone points that out. Yeah sure, go out and spend another $180 for new gears. Throw in another $60-$120 for an installation kit and fluids + cost of labor to have a professional do the work for you. (Of coarse, that's if your lucky enough to have a a 7.5" 10 bolt under the car, 'cause if you're unlucky enough to have a 9 bolt, GOOD LUCK trying to find parts for it)

Now you have to deal with the increased fuel consumption that your new 3.73's or 4.10 have caused. Not a big deal if it's a weekend only car, but if it's a daily driver or you do a lot of freeway driving, yeah, it'll effect you every time you hit the gas station.

How about that torque converter? Throw in another $450-$500 (minimum) for a half decent brand and another $130-$150 for a shift kit in order to firm up your shifts since that high stall converter you just bought will cause your tranny's shifting to go all sloppy. While your at it, throw in a tranny cooler as well for another $60-$70, otherwise the heat generated by the higher stall converter will fry your tranny in no time. Don't forget the other $40-$50 for fluids + the cost of labor to have everything installed.

So on top of the $950 or so, you just spent on your fancy new HSR (manifold/base/fuel pressure regulator/fuel rails and new injectors)

Throw in the another $850-$900 is tranny and rear end upgrades to make up for the loss in low end torque and your now up to $1800 bucks + whatever amount it cost to have everything installed. By the way, don't forget to add all the taxes and shipping costs for all those parts.
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So now you've partially made up for the loss in low end torque by going with the HSR, you're ready to finally see how much harder your car pulls "up top"......

You take it out to an open-stretch of road and as soon as you get the chance, you let it rip. After a couple runs at wide open throttle, you're not happy. You start wondering whether somethings "wrong" with your car since it's not pulling any harder than your TPI did. Why? It's an HSR!!!!

Holley's advertisements boast that their HSR increases power output by more than 50 HP at the wheels on a BONE STOCK L98!!! Where's all that power? Why isn't your car pulling like a raped ape like you thought it would??

A quick post on this forum asking why your car feels so slow and your now told that your stock heads don't flow enough to take advantage of your new HSR intake. Worse yet, your stock peanut-cam is just as useless as your stock heads at taking advantage of the HSR's 5000+rpm breathing capabilities.

The very same people now telling you this, were the same people who originally recommended you go with the HSR to begin with. Of coarse, they failed to mention these little "set-backs" at the time they were recommending the HSR.

So now your left with a car that no longer has that low-end "grunt" you liked so much with your old TPI. You're fuel economy took a dump with the lower gears and higher stall converter and your shiny new HSR that you paid so dearly for, has yet to give you any increase in performance due to the fact that your crappy cylinder heads and small cam can't take advantage of you new intakes breathing potential. Wonderful. Now you're thinking to your self, "What I have I gotten myself into "

So now you've got to go out and buy yourself a set of heads 'cause you'd just be wasting your time trying to improve the stockers. Throw in another $1200-$1500 minimum for a half decent set of heads, another $300 for a set of roller rockers 'cause your not going to be re-using the stock stamped-steel rockers on your brand new aluminum cylinder heads.

Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. You've now got an intake that flows to 6000rpm. You now have heads that can take advantage of that RPM but you still have to upgrade the cam or it will all be for nothing. Throw in another $250-$300 for an "off the shelf" cam and another $50-$100 for a new timing chain to replace your old one (which by now, is too old to re-use)

That's what another, $1800-$2200 in parts. Add to that, the cost of labor to install everything, plus all the other minor details.....

Now you're thinking you're good to go. You've got the heads. You've got the cam. You've got the intake and you've got the gears and stall to help out the low-end. It's a done deal right??

Well, not quite. See, after taking your car out for a spin, you notice that it runs like a bag of sh*t. Slower than it's ever been. Why? Cause all those mods you've done have far surpassed your stock computers ability to run the motor properly. Now you have to get a custom tune.

Good luck with that one. Most places charge $100/hour and believe me, they usually like to take their time...

Finding someone who actually know how to tune propely is another problem in itself. A lot of people talk the talk, but not to many really know what they're doing and you'll wind up with a car that doesn't run anywhere near as good as it should.

Trust me. An HSR is not something you can just throw on and forget about. There's a lot more to it than that....


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Bottom line is this. An HSR has a lot of potential. More so, than any TPI set-up if you're looking to spin your motor to the heavens to make tonnes of power but you're going to have to spend a LOT of money, and buy a LOT of parts, in order to take advantage of the HSR's breathing potential and to make up for its short-comings. It's not as simple as just throwing on an HSR on a stock L98.

You have to know what it is that that you intend to use this vehicle for. If it's a daily driver, ask yourself this.

How often are you spinning your motor to 5000+ rpm??

Odds are, it's few and far between. You're motor is more than likely to spend 95% of it's time, operating in the idle-4500rpm range (exactly where TPI shines best), so what's the point of buying an intake that makes power at an RPM range that you're almost never in to begin with? At the expense of losing the low-end torque (Which just so happens to be the reason why these cars so much fun to drive) ???

The truth is, you can throw on an aftermarket TPI base and runners and still run with the factory computer tune without issues (Although you would probably gain a few HP from tuning). You don't have to upgrade your heads or your cam to take advantage of them and when you finally do decide to upgrade the other parts, your bigger runners and aftermarket-base will be able to pull to about 5500 which is more than enough for most any "daily driver" which "sometimes" sees track action on Saturday's.

Choice is yours. You can go with an HSR, just keep in mind you won't be seeing much gains without the other upgrades I mentioned...
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LT1Fun's PM. i found it helpful. kinda interested on your take of the mini-ram

 

Let's just hope that post doesn't get my @ss banned

 

Good post. Like you said, everyone thinks it's JUST the TPI intake choking out the engine at high rpms. It's also the stock heads/cam. I would only put a HSR in if I did a heads/cam package.

 

another option i like to throw out is the FIRST Intake

bassicly a mega tpi intake.. Seems to show promise

i think badss has one not sure

 

I'll agree with everything that LT1FUN said. ...but there's also a bit of bias in there which could be just as misleading as the people who jump to recommend the HSR....

....which as mentioned, ultimately brings us back to "how you gonna use it?"

I probably mention this once a week, but I'll never forget it. Someone on TGO once said that he won't mod his car unless he knows why he chose the part he chose. I live by that myself. I can't tell you how many times I've been sold on a part, looked up the price, been SURE it was what I was gonna do, and then after doing some reading, I end up realizing it's NOT what I need.
LT1FUN is correct in his example, but someone else could post up about how the torque loss is minimal, or it's still enough to roast the tires, PLUS you gain a little at the top before the stock heads stop flowing. PLUS, when you can afford it, you get a LOT more out of better heads, cam, and tuning. Who's right? It ultimately depends on YOUR GOALS.

 

exactyl. for the last 3 months i was SURE that the HSR was right for me. but im not looking to build a 10 second street car with $2k heads and a monster cam. just something sweet on the street that ca run with the LS1 boys at the track. so ultimatly the HSR just isnt what i need for my goals. now the mini-ram might meet my needs. but for now i think im gonna just port what i have and drop in an lt4 hot cam with some re-valved heads, and then focus getting what little power i have to the ground. because we all know 400hp is usless if you cant get the car to hook up.

 

im very happy with my mini-ram III not really happy on the price but its all in what you want and i wanted one for many years when i put my new l98 back toghter i put in the lt4 cam not the hot cam to keep it sounding more like a stock setup went with the fastburn heads only because my brother gave me a good deal on them with 1.6rr also 25lbs injectors now before the mini ram came along i went with the sdpc vortec lower and reused my slp runners now i still had the factory tune 700r4 and still had the 9 bolt with 3.27 gear and went to the track thinking i was going to burn the track up boy did i feel like a chump it ran 14.5 at 99.9 in almost stock form it ran 14.4 at 96 then the posi went while i was there ordered the ls1 rear and 3.73 for it and before i got that in the 700r4 went so ordered the t56 got it all toghter and then went for the mini ram and got it tuned then went back to the track still on the cheap street skins it went 13.60 at 109 spinin a little out of the hole spinin at second shift. so basicly watch what you put toghter it all has to work toghter im sure if i used the stock cam on that old set up it would have been a really good set up the lt4 cam was just to much of a switch for it i guess hope this helps some one.