I have been trying to two months now to get my 89 TPI Firebird off the ramps. I upgraded the fuel injectors, TB, plenum/runners/manifold, and chip (2 different chips from two different companies) but cannot get the car to stay lit. I have pored over this car for weeks, with various second opinions and am almost to the point of taking it to the shop. I Do NOT want to have someone else fix my car...but I have no more ideas on what to do.

I have:
set minimum air, set & reset timing, set & reset TPS, fuel rail has good pressure (30psi at prime), EGR lines all hoooked up, vac lines all hooked up, no vac leaks, fuel pump primes, I have spark, no error codes....

The best part is, the old burn on the current chip held the car running just fine with this new setup. It was set for 19lb injectors and came with my Jasper engine. I have since had that chip reflashed with the new stuff I put on the car. I also had a "memory adapter" the first time; new programming with old chip and that din't work either.

What the hell am I missing here? Can someone or any group of people tell me where to look next?

Going plum crazy here...
Eric

 

most of the fuel psi threads i've read have said that stock psi should be about 47 psi.

 

I'd say your fuel pressure is too low. Mine sits at around 40 psi when it primes and idles at 37-38psi.

 

OK, I ramped up the FP to 40 (KOEO). I primed it and turned it over to get the 40, but still got the same result. A dead car. Thanks anywho...anyone else?

 

try putting a stock computer in it. if already done then is the dizzy 180 out? i did that **** when i changed my cam. tried for 3 days to start the damn thing and the dizzy was out 180.

 

The ECM is stock. The distributor is set correctly because the the car ran and idled perfectly with the old chip/settings & new parts in it. Gracias.

 

A Jasper engine? Hope that works out for you.

I'd start playing with your distributor.
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Kinda sounds like your chip company may have messed up something.

 

The Jasper engine is great, it only malfunctions when my hands get near it!

I'd be willing to play with the distributor or anything, if I knew what to do at this point. Let me make something clear, I could run the car with the old chip/setting, and then hook up the memory adapter w/ the new settings IMMEDIATELY after shutting the car off and I woulld get no idle-just a cough and hiccup. The old chip/settings are gone now as I had that chip reflashed thinking the memory adapter was crap. The throttle can barely keep the engine going, let off and it peters out and goes back to sleep. SO, 2 chips, same problem.

I'm thinking the distributor isnt the issue because it would run fine immediately prior to the chip swap. I guess this also means the computer can't be bad, right?

 

I'd talk to your chip people. Sounds like they messed something up when they flashed a prom for you.
Do you know what they changed?
At the very minimum they would've needed to change your injector constant to match your injectors and they would've needed to match your distributor setting so that all your spark tables would be correct.

Try advancing your distributor for now. See if it starts to start any better.

What's this memory adapter?

 

I've talked to BOTH chip people, and they both tell me I've done something wrong. I told both of them everything from the injector size, to the head flow numbers, to the LSA..everything they could want to know.

A memory adapter was one name for the 1st attempt at a chip upgrade. Basically they burned the new info on a chip and attached it to a circuit board which plugged between the MEMCAL and the computer.

I distributor, right now, sits at 8* base. I had advanced it way up to 20 or something (EST unplugged mind you), but that only barely kept the engine alive. Obviously, when I took more timing out, I got backfires into the plenum. I am hesitant to move the distributor at this point becuase I cannot get the car running long enough to set it back to a reasonable, tried and true setting (the good calibration on the chip has been overwritten).

V, I appreciate you trying to help me, but it seems I've "been there, done that" with this.

 

You could check out the DIY forum to get yourself the proper base binary file. You'll need the ECM part number and hopefully you still have the stock memcal.
I believe you can run the ARAP chip. Obviously it'll need to be modified for your modifications.
Where's RVA?

 

RVA is Richmond, VA

I have no idea about how to program a chip. I prefer to DIY most things, but I do not want to learn all about that for a one-time issue. I do have the ECM part number, but the other stuff you mentioned was greek to me. I'd rather pay someone to burn me what I need. I trust my chip-company, I think it is something on my end...I just need to be pointed to what it could possibly be

I called the 2nd chip-guy again and pleaded with him to listen to me, he said he'd call me back.

I'm still open to any idea of what this may be. Watch it be an unhooked something-or-other (like my fuel rail post)

 

I talked to FastChip today and Ed told me I needed to ramp up the fuel pressure, much like V said previously. This time I ramped it up to 50, 60, 70 pounds and still got little more than a hiccup-it did sputter a little more trying to stay lit, but I euthanized it while it lay gagging on the ramps. He told me to give it some throttle and maybe it would catch, and sure enough it did not. I have discovered that I am running lean no matter what I do here. It tries to fatten up as it sputters right before it dies. Ed told me that the "Bosch-style" injectors I am using (Venom) aren't quite as good as Ford SVO units.

What can I do here? Is this between FastChip and me now? Are there any things I can do to correct this? Why would 30 pound injectors run lean?

 

How do you know that you're running lean?

If your car runs on the stock programming, then it is NOT your fault that it doesn't run on the chips that you had programmed.

30's shouldn't run lean on your setup.

 

I have an AutoXray hooked up, and it seldom comes off of the "lean" AF reading.

My car did run on the stock programming, but it was sitting on lean as well. The worst part is, on the 1st chip, I got the car to hold a choppy (but pleasing to the ear) idle, I had done nothing to the timing then, set the IAS, TPS and he was oscillating perfectly between rich/lean. I turned the car off to go watch a race thinking I'd get back to it the next day, and when I tried to start it, I was right back to where I was in the beginning w/ no idle. I have not been able to get it back since then.

I cannot get the car to fatten up. I've tried the FP a couple days ago, then Friday I swapped in a new MAF just in case that was the issue, and it wasn't

 

ohm the injectors and make sure they are all good

 

The spec for these injectors if 15.9. All 8 ohmed out between 15.5-16.0 (cold).

The chip tuner told me to unplug the MAF just to see if that would help. I got 2 full seconds of revving car before it died this time, but I DID NOT GET AN ERROR CODE. I started the car 3 times and still got no error code. This seems abnormal, is this telling me anything useful?

 

check to see if the maf is actually working properly

 

Boss, it's your chip! Go to the boneyard, and pick up a stock LB9 chip for nothing and swap it in. With fuel pressure already being bumped up, and with the addition of those fuel injectors, it'll idle fine on a stock 305 chip. Mind you, it won't maximize your performance, but it will idle. It sounds like your chip burner is not a stand up guy, as he's too quick to point his finger elsewhere. If your still bent on trying to find another possible culprit, look into both the ignition module, as well as your Electronic Spark Control sensor. It sounds like your fuel pump is only "priming" the engine, and is neglecting to stay on....

 

Lone Star:I don't know how to test a MAF. Can you clue me in?

I did swap MAFs and got nothing. I'm wondering if it is upstream of the sensor since I got no error code with the plug disconnected.


Street Lethal: I used the stock chip and it did idle, but it wouldn't come off "lean". This is my second chip with the same result...LEAN. The current "guy" is Ed at FastChip. His does good work as it was the "stock" chip that came with my engine from Jasper.

The ignition module works fine: it is a year old, it worked before I took the car apart, and it worked with the old chip/new injectors/lean condition. As far as the fuel pump, it does prime as you say, but it is also on while the engine is running: the fuel pressure guage does show ample pressure of over 40 pounds. I know little about the ESC being part of the problem. When I had the engine running, I could set timing and my scanner shows plenty of advance. But tell me how to test it and I will gladly do so.

Thank you both for your input thus far...

 

You probably ought to pull a spark plug or two and have a look to see if they are fouled or not... otherwise when you're trying to start it you could hold the throttle to the floor and crank it. This will tell the ecm to not fire the injectors in case it is flooding. If it does start after doing this immediately let off the gas. You might have some timing issues from changing the timing with it if it was not warmed up when you set the timing. This is all I can think of, hope it helps you. Good luck.

 

To the point, should I get an error code if the MAF has been disconnected?

The plugs are not fouled, I cannot keep the car running long enough to foul them. (they were perfect a week before I took it apart) The car was warmed up when I set the timing.

 

I find it very interesting that your able to detect a "lean" condition with the current setup considering the engine isn't even holding an idle yet. Incidently, any "guy" can make a mistake in reference to prom burning, not intentionally, it just happens sometimes....

If you carefully inspect my other post, I only mentioned ignition module in case you were still bent on taking "Ed's" word for it, and wanted to look for another possible culprit. As far as this infamous LEAN autoxray reading, what is the actual AFR reading? Do you honestly know....?

Whoa, so the engine does hold an idle then....?

But this is during "prime" though. This does NOT mean the fuel pump isn't shutting down on you, as the fuel system will still hold adequate pressure even with the engine immediately turned off for a bit....

If a reference is not realized, the ECM will kill feed to the fuel pump....

 

does the fuel pump stay running???? other than that i dunno

 

If you are 100 percent sure that the fuel pump is good and is running properly and has the correct voltage going to it etc.., AND you are NOT setting a trouble code, then I believe it's your timing or possibly a bad fuel regulator.

I've seen a false lean condition before due to the base mechanical timing (I.E. the distributor only) being way too retarded (no pun).. Try advancing your base timing by a couple of degrees at a time and see if the car will stay running with the EST wire disconnected (single tan or brown wire located near the outer AC box). Don't reconnect the EST wire and reset the ECM until the motor will stay barely running on it's own just by the mechanical timing changes.

What do your plugs look like?

Check your oil. Does it smell really gassy?
Is the oil level higher than normal?

Chances are your dumping WAY to much fuel into the motor and fuel is getting passed the rings and into the oil pan.

If you have this oil condition, change it immediatley because spinning a bearing is easy to do with thin gas washed oil.

Don't set your fuel pressure higher than 40 PSI at idle with Vac line disconnected.

I've seen several cars come through my shop with Ed Write chip's. All that I've seen including my own Fastchip.com experience (several years back), have all ran WAY too rich and had WAY too much timing in the PROM. Hence that's when I learned how to tune it myself.

Like I said, if NO trouble codes, then my bet is the base mechanical timing and or a bad fuel supply or PROM.

Are you sure you have the new programmed PROM facing the correct way into the memcal adapter?

The little divet on top at the end of the PROM chip should be facing away from the memcal. Maybe you placed it in there backwards by mistake?

Anywho, I hope at least some of the above helps!

 

That would immediately throw the CEL and put the car in limp mode. Don't ask me how I know.

 

Street Lethal: If you carefully inspect my other post, I only mentioned ignition module in case you were still bent on taking "Ed's" word for it, and wanted to look for another possible culprit. As far as this infamous LEAN autoxray reading, what is the actual AFR reading? Do you honestly know....?

I honestly do not know the real A/F ratio. The scanner is my only real source of ECM info right now.

Whoa, so the engine does hold an idle then....?

No, my right foot keeps the car alive.

But this is during "prime" though. This does NOT mean the fuel pump isn't shutting down on you, as the fuel system will still hold adequate pressure even with the engine immediately turned off for a bit....

The fuel pump has voltage while the car is being kept alive by my right foot. I press down on the throttle, the voltage goes up, I let off, the voltage goes down, but does not zero out, and the car dies.
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1bad91Z:
I am sure the fuel pump is alive, see above. Of the things you recommended I check: the oil is ok, PROM is plugged in correctly, I set a more reasonable FP (around 40), I plugged the MAF back in (in case you were wondering..ha!), I checked a couple plugs, they were black and smelled like gas. Now I'm really confused, computer says lean, plugs say rich. I unplugged the EST and played w/ the distributor. I got the complete same result as I have been. #1 plug was originally at about 7 o'clock, I eventually moved it to around 5 o'clock. I increased the idle stop screw a bit and that didn't help either.

 

Just putting down in print what happened to me.
Some different variables but the situation was similar.
I couldn't keep my car running after my engine build. I had to do chip tuning as well. Still shoulda run on the stock tune. Only would with my foot on the gas. I ended up bringing up minimum idle with the idle adjustment screw and then had to inform the prom of the changes. After just the idle adjustment it would idle fine in park and open loop.

 

Vip, how much screw did you end up having to put in it?

 

I had to put in ALL of it. That's just what my engine wanted though.

 

The idle screw has helped immensly. I can get it to idle around 800-900; I've got about half the screw in it and I've bumped the timing (EST connected just so I can get it to stay alive) a couple of degrees. It's still quite choppy but it can stay alive by itself....I'm grinning from ear to ear. Am I hurting anything with this choppy idle?

Before I go randomly moving things, please tell me the best way to smooth out the idle. I'm still confused a bit so I want to do things right the FIRST TIME, this time (which means I want someone who knows more than I-which obviously ain't much)

 

This is exactly why I asked you what the AFR literally was. You stated that the autoxray was embellishing a LEAN condition, but it was obviously giving this reading during Open Loop, which didn't make any sense at all....

It's going to cause more harm than good in the long run. If the the engine ran fine on the old PROM, and with no changes whatsoever, runs horrible with a new "custom" PROM, common sense points to the chip. Turning the idle speed screw in the majority of the way isn't the answer....

That depends. Was it choppy in the same manner with the old chip? Considering the RICH condition is more than likely still a problem in itself, as well as the questionable chip work, yes, I'd say its (the choppy idle) is going to do more harm than good. By the way, what are the cam specs?

 

Personally, I was going to respond to this thread with , but being that you consistantly dodged the advice of it being the chip....

I read above that you have no idea how to burn a prom, and would rather pay someone to do the work for you. Most of us here burn our own proms for our LB9/L98's, and I'm telling you that it is easy to make an inadvertent mistake....

 

Choppy idle with stock to mild cam plus black plugs tells me that your choppy idle is probably due to fouled plugs.

Showing lean when plugs are black is most likely a timing issue.

What is your base mechanical timing set to?

Try to set it arround 6 - 8 degrees with EST wire unplugged.

Then make sure you reset the ECM by disconnecting the battery for 30 seconds before you restart it.

I would also burn another chip for it. I think your "custom" chip is contributing to the problem as well.

Plugs, new Correctly tuned custom PROM, and correct the base timing should take care of it.

 

Regarding the base mechanical timing, I know I need to wait until the engine warms up, but how long is long enough? I ask because my water gets to 145* right about the same time the back half of one of my cats turns orange. Can I disconnect the EST right after I get the car "idling" or must I wait until a closed loop situation occurs? (by that time the whole cat will probably be orange)

 

If your cats are glowing, your motor is running WAY to rich and you're experiencing un-burnt fuel inside the exhaust pipes which intern the cats burn even hotter due to the excess fuel. Set your base timing and re-tune the PROM. New plugs will help because they are probably allready fouled. You don't need to wait until the motor warms up to set timing. Have someone in the car babying the throttle to keep it running while EST wire is disconnected. Have your helper try to keep it under 1000 rpm's. Once you set it to at least 6 (no higher than 8), lock down the distrib. and shut the motor off. Reconnect EST wire and disconnect battery for 30 sec's or so. Reconnect battery and your done.

 

...and 2 months later he fixes the car.

After much hair-pulling, advice seeking, and thoughts of selling the car, I found the problem to be my new AS&M runners. (no SL, it wasn't the chip....)

I tried (most) all of the advice put forth here and took it to 2 different mechanics (who were more lost than I was) to finally get headed in the right direction. Turns out the last "pro" who looked at it told me I needed to start putting the stock parts back on until I find what the culprit is. I resisted this idea until I had no hope left. Eventually, I pulled the runners off to find them hopelessly warped, to the tune of .030 on all four flanges. (see my post here for more details: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...long-tube.html) They came to me like this, I sent them back to AS&M to be fixed, they returned them to me still a bit flawed. When I got them back, I figured they got them to within a tolerance that I could bolt them up. I put them on and subsequently forgot about them until I had to start taking stuff back off to make the car run again.

I had a machine shop fix the issue, I bolted them on and the car purred ...the first time I started it. I can't tell you how much fun it is to drive it again. It will be a cold day in hell before I buy anything from AS&M again.

Also, one more time, thanks to everyone for your help. I hope this post helps someone someday with the same problem.

Eric

 

... this is what YOU wrote in your very first post;

You initially stated that there were NO vacuum leaks, so such an arrogant remark should honestly be directed towards you, and not me. If the runners were truly warped, and you performed the proper vacuum leak test way ahead of time like you should have, and SAID you did, you would have known immediately that that was the culprit. But you obviously didn't, despite what you initially said....

Good luck with your car.

 

hahaha..I knew a chic once who just HAD to have the last word every single time

I had a steady vac reading, albeit low. I was under the impression from some postings here, that a vac leak would cause a surging idle. Mine did surge initially, but would always level out within in a minute or two. Sometimes the car would start and I could even get it to hold a proper idle...I think that was twice. I make no bones that I am still learning here, so a constant vac reading (I didn't know at the time what the proper amount of vac was) didn't indicate a leak to me. Your insistance on it being the chip, the chip, the chip, was about as on target as either of the mechanics who actually looked at it or my assesment of there being no vac leak at all.

Thanks for the well wish with my car.