Mark_ZZ3

Just reading the latest GM High tech. They have an article about the 1992 hertiage edition car. I remember reading about this car ... oh so long ago.

I am curious if there is anyone out there that knows more about the TPI Runners that GM produced for this car. There were a new design with more cross sectional area.

Just curious about what the folks did at GM to better the already good design.

Mark.

TRAXION

Mark,

You are reading my mind I was lucky enough to actually get some of my OWN pics of this car ... heh heh and sit in it! Check out the pics here....

TRAXION's 25th Anniversary Pics!

The runners that appear on this car complete the rarest TPI intake ever designed. All other known prototypes of those runners have been destroyed. The ones that you see on the 25th are the last known ones to exist. I don't know ANYONE who has seen these runners off the car.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Mark_ZZ3

Very cool indeed. Strange how that exhuast system is so rusty, but the rest of the car is ok. Perhaps some one off pipes?

The runners looks interesting. REally thick in the middle and then tapered at the plenum.

Maybe they opened all 4 runners at the top of the plenum, and then started the dividers about 1/2 way down. The LT1 was on it's way, maybe the shorter runners where what they were after. Rather like the superram.

It would be neat to see the design and what effects it had on torque. I wonder what cam they used? ZZ3? I think it was out at that time or was only the ZZ1 out.

Very cool pics. Time to get buddy buddy with some GM folks and see if they would let you take the engine apart.

oh to work in the reasearh labs of GM!

Mark.

Kyle F

Yea I think they were a similar design, or might be, the SLP runners. You know GM and SLP work closely together.
I dont find this car to be so "special". What makes it so special the 6 speed? Well I have seen enough 3rd gens with 6 speeds put in them that I am not so impressed by the factory being able to do it. And 300 HP out of a 350TPI, yea thats hard to do with POrted L98 heads and a different cam. I am sorry but I think anyone here with a few thousand dollars would be able to build this car. THough I am sure in 1991 when the debuted the car it was special. Now I think, oh wow I have seen alot of people with better cars than this. And hell it still wouldn't be as fast as a new LS1 6-speed, and it was going to be a $30,000 dollar plus car back then, now with inflation an everything that would be in the 32-35 thousand dollar range. Im not so impressed. I mean it didnt even have the Z28 wing on it. Though I have to say its a cool car, I'm just not so impressed by it now as much as I was in the past.

Mark_ZZ3

Kyle,

I am glad your unimpressed, but that was not my question nor did I ask for people's opinions on the car. I asked about the runners ONLY and purely from a technical perspective.

Didn't your moma ever tell you "if you can't say something nice ...".

Please reply to this post if you have something to add that relates to this topic. There are better forums you can tell people how unimpressed you are.

Mark.

RCR

I noticed that too, when looking at the article. At first I thought they were SLP runners, but after looking again, they seem to be siamesed about half way down, kind of a "U" shape, instead of the typical "V" shape. The plenum is different also. Doesn't have the ribs going most of the way down the top. I may have to check some sources to see if that info is "available".

Slow Iroc

Guys, look at those runners. I mean really look at them. Those look THE EXACT SAME as the Prototype SLP runners. I'm not talking about the first castings, but the casting SLP had made while the were developing the runner. Complete with the two "*****" on the drivers side runner. I would lay money down that those are 80% if not more similar to the SLP units.

IROCET

I saw that article in GMHTP. Everyone should pick up that issue for all the Camaro stuff in it. Anyway, I was wondering the same thing. Knowing what little I do about different runners and stuff, I would feel very confident in saying those could very well be shortened inside. GM designers aren't idiots, so I'm sure they figured out some way to make those things flow like crazy. I don't see any reason they probably weren't experimenting with short runners.

I wonder what they did to that Plenum? Wonder what they did to the rest of the intake for that matter? That is definitely worth looking into.

Matt

------------------
irocet@hotmail.com

drive.to/Stang_Kilr

88 IROC-Z -- 350 L-98, 700R4, Flowmaster, K&N, MAF Sceens Gone, Airfoil, March Pullies, Comp Cams Magnum 1.6 Roller Rockers, Accel U-Groove Plugs, Accel 8.8 mm Wires, Hypertech Cap & Coil, Hypertech Chip, Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace, One Loud Stereo!

90Iroc

The runners look like SLP's to me, I have never seen the SLP's in person but from pictures they look very similar. But enough about those. Does anyone know whether or not a ZF6 6 speed bolts right up to a T5 housing or what all is needed to swap one in? I have all the information on a T56 swap, I just don't know if I would need all the stuff like the hydraulic assemblies from the donor car of a ZF6 like I would for a T56. Anyone know?

Slow Iroc

For those of us without the mag (still waiting in the mail), can someone post a rough power estimate and part combination if it's listed. I am convinced those are SLP TYPE runners (may not be the exact same), and really want to know what GM was able to make out of them.

Mark_ZZ3

I think the runners are very interesting. It looks like they made a superram type of intake out of it. I am betting the runners are divided about 1/2 down where they taper towards the intake. From 1/2 to the plenum, they are probably open right up and the plenum is cut open like a long oval. Notive the EGR ports and stuff are all inside.

Notice too the Vette valve covers. According to an article from CArcraft 1992, they list the engine as a Vette engine with 270HP ... so does that mean aluminum heads? Could be.

Anyways back to the runners. Here are some pics from the 1992 mag.





Mark.



[This message has been edited by Mark_ZZ3 (edited February 05, 2001).]

TRAXION

More info -

1) Yes, it does have the corvette aluminum heads. It started life as a corvette longblock.
2) When I was looking at the camaro I talked to the GM guy. I don't know how much he really knew about this car but I was told that the plenum is not modified AT ALL. Who knows.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Slow Iroc

Can anyone post some pics of SLP runners installed, just to compare. I'm very interested.

F22Raptor

Those runners are NOT the SLP runners that summit and other people sell. Maybe they were made by SLP back then for this particular car, but I have SLP runners and they are not the same by a long shot. Obviously, these runners are cast, just like SLP pieces, but the SLP are just like the other runners, but the "PAIRS" are joined, instead of each individual tube separated. Once again, those cool looking runners have some similarities to SLP's but are not exactly the same.
By the way Kyle, I would trade my car for that Z28 anyday. It's not wheter it makes superb horsepower or not, but how rare it is and what our cars might have been. I'm pretty sure GM transplanted some ideas from this car to the new F-Bodies, like maybe the 6-Speed, aluminum heads, etc. If you don't create prototypes like this car, how are you gonna improve future generations?
Very cool car! I really envy the 6-Speed and i would also like to see the inside of those runners and see what the Z runs and .......

------------------
'88 GTA 350
Headers, catback, free mods, Xtreme energy cam, intake pieces and 2100 RPM TQ

13.40@102.55 MPH
1.90 Sec ------- Best 60FT
104.23 MPH -- Best Trap Speed

AIM HIGH!

Kyle F

Well I agree that the car is really rare, and yes I would trade my car for it for that reason. All I am saying is that nothing in this car is too impressive to me. Why? Because a lot of people on this board have transplanted better things into a Third-gen. Thats all they did was transplant existing parts in. OK yea sure they took a corvette engine put a better cam in it, ported the heads, change the intake a little, stuffed the drive line into a camaro, then said hey look the greatest camaro of all time. Um, no I will put my vote on the `69 427 camaro. Hmm I wonder if GM put 9" wide GSC behind that car and a 6 speed how fast would it be? A lot faster than this thing.
Look Im not falming anyone or the car, it is cool, but I dont think its worth everyone getting their panties in a bunch over it.
Also need to mention that as I replied before in a technical aspect THOSE RUNNERS ARE MADE BY SLP, I looked into it and if you go back to the preliminary casting those are it. 100% no questions about it. Though SLP changed the runners twice since these. The first set released to the public, and I know one guy on here has them just cant remember who it was, had two sections "siamesed" and two sections not, I forget what the idea behind this was, but I think it was to flatten the torque band. You know 4cyl would breathe better low to produce more lowend and 4cyl would breathe better on top end. You get the idea. THough I think with experiementing they discovered this was not working as inteneded, so they made the casting so all were "siamesed" and were Tune Ported to run at 5500 rpm, which just happens to be the magical peak of their computer friendly TPI cam. Which by the way when I installed them together made a huge difference, ofcourse I was running the penut cam before . Sorry about expressing my opinins, but I just got a little irritated because I think some people on here have built much better cars and I think there have been better Camaros, and what about the Thirdgen Firehawk. Aluminum 383 with a 6-speed? Now that Kicks ***

F22Raptor

Boy, you a fathead!
You just don't get it. Of course anyone can make a car faster that this car, the only thing that makes it special is the fact that the car is super rare and only a lucky few have them. In fact, I wouldn't buy me that car for an extra $5000-10000 over a regular Z28 for all the stuff it had; I can duplicate that and make it better, but it would never be ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT. GET IT!

As for the runners, I don't know what your problem is because NOBODY said that they were not SLP. If you were referring to me in your last reply, what I said was that those are NOT the SLP runners you get from Summit this days or for as far as I can remember, but that maybe SLP did in fact started off with those weird looking runners and ended up with what we have today.
Happy now?!

ps: I think Kyle is just jelous! hehe

IROCET

I was looking at an article for a Procharged L98 Corvette today. Well anyway, I can't tell for sure, but it looked like the plenum on it was the same as the one that Camaro. What I mean is that the grooves on the top of it don't seem to go very far on it either. Was that a standard type of plenum on the Corvette or something? I didn't think it would be different from the Camaro, but I don't know.

Matt

------------------
irocet@hotmail.com

drive.to/Stang_Kilr

88 IROC-Z -- 350 L-98, 700R4, Flowmaster, K&N, MAF Sceens Gone, Airfoil, March Pullies, Comp Cams Magnum 1.6 Roller Rockers, Accel U-Groove Plugs, Accel 8.8 mm Wires, Hypertech Cap & Coil, Hypertech Chip, Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace, One Loud Stereo!

Guest

The length of the plenum grooves have to do with the year. Theres a post on this somewhere on this board rather recently. 89 was the year it was changed. 85-88 have long grooves. That plenum looks like a 89-up.

F22Raptor

man, I've never noticed the groves on the plenum. I have a '88 GTA and they go almost all the way to the TB unlike the pics above.

Kyle F

Hum since when was it worng to share yuor opinon on here. I guess you just cant disagree with anyone.
I don't give a **** about stock equipment because most of it isn't worth the paint they put on the car.
Like I said its rare and yes I would trade my car for it, but only to sale it and to claim I have the rarest Camaro ever.
Who are the lucky few who own these? GM right. No one owns one of these only 2 were built and one of them is gone and destroyed from testing, the other, well it made it to the magaqzines and ocasionally makes it way to shows.
Alos I was only sharing what I know about the SLP runners. I am sorry to tell you this, but I porbably know more about SLP as a company than anyone else on this board, unless they work for them or know someone who does. Why? you ask. Well simply because I have loved the companies products sine it was Street Legal Performance and not SLP Engineering. I have seen many of their product evolve from the test bench to application and then trough revisions.
You know its funny how some people just have to be right and can't stand to have someone diagree withthem. To me I could care less whether this was your favorite car or not, but I am sure it is with how much you defend its abilities. I just have the opinon that its not all that impressive. It doesnt even have fog lights. It doesn't even have the impressive spoiler on the back. To me it looks really plain to. Another thing that doesn't impress me about the car. What about SLP's third gen Firehawk, now that was inpressive. It got the GTA spoiler, BIG fat wheels that were not a knock off from a Camaro, like the camaro in question used stock GTA wheels, The Firehawk also got some goodies in the interior. How about that ALL ALUMINUM 383 in that? Not that is a rare car that is worth something. Oh wait they produced that though. *** hole

90Iroc

I believe that two of these bad boys are still around. At least that's what is said and shown in the latest GM High Tech Performance.

TRAXION

The real truth is probably a combination of what EVERYONE said....

1) They are not SLP runners HOWEVER there is a good chance that SLP designed these runners for GM yet the runners were never released to the public.
2) Yes the car is rare - that alone makes it desirable since many others on this board have a 'hotter' thirdgen.
3) There is only 1 of these cars left. The other one (referred to) was stripped for other projects. So, although the chassis is still around ... it is not in its 25th special anniversary form. This chassis is the chassis used for the Yellow RS RamJet project.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Mark_ZZ3

Kyle F,

About the only comment I can read of yours that pertains to the topic is the first sentence you wrote. Past that point all you have done is "offer" your opinion, which I might point out is anything but positive. If you have something to contribute that is positive, then great, let's hear it. Nuff said.

And to your comment:

"I am sorry to tell you this, but I porbably know more about SLP as a company than anyone else on this board, unless they work for them or know someone who does."

You best have some good backing to make statements like that. Talk about putting yourself high on a pedistal.

It is one thing to DECLARE your self as an expert in a particular field, but it is another thing TO BE DECLARED by your peers as an expert. One take seconds and a large ego, the other takes years of hard work and respect.

I hope you get the chance to demonstrate your expertise and enlighten us that do know as much about SLP as you do.

... stepping on my soap box,
Mark.
PS. The Topic of this post "The Best Camaro Never made - Question about 1992 heritage edition that din't make it" are not the direct options of the poster, rather they are reference to magazine article to discuss a topic for this post.

F22Raptor

AY CARAMBA!
Somebody give Kyle some PROZAC!

F22Raptor

How can I make this topic a litte bit more spicey?...hum...eh....ahahh

GM SUCKS....BUY FORD!!!!

hehe

------------------
'88 GTA 350
Headers, catback, free mods, Xtreme energy cam, intake pieces and 2100 RPM TQ

13.40@102.55 MPH
1.90 Sec ------- Best 60FT
104.23 MPH -- Best Trap Speed

AIM HIGH!

Kyle F

Aas much as I dislike ford atleast some of their prototypes make it to the market in limited production.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

just a blast from the past. I love how odd these runners are
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...#ixzz2pz7WU1Kw

thebandit50187

the all aluminum 383 you speak of was never in ANY FIREHAWK. It was however a 366 rodeck aluminum block so i can see the confusion

thebandit50187

mark, i have a ZZ3 and i thought a similar idea. a smog legal carburetor on a ZZ3 with all smog and accessories on produced 308 horsepower and i always wondered why they never produced a ZZ3 TPI conversion too, you'd think that a TPI would get better fuel mileage and better emissions than a carburetor anyways and makes more sense even tho i'm sure the price would increase too, hopefully by this next spring ill have my own 87 formula TPI ZZ3 350. i have to rebuild my ZZ3 and i have everything but rings and bearings plus the machine work, so i still might need new pistons too

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

Wrong. #026 was modified by SLP into a 383 for the original owner, a Dentist in Hawaii. Their techs actually flew out there in person to do it.

You can argue that it was a 366 when delivered but then again, the non red cars and Rodeck block ones aren't *real* Firehawks anyway as they did NOT have RPO B4U on their SPID label.

It's all semantics Depends how you want to define real and original.

Holy old thread Batman!

thebandit50187

That very well could be the case. but you knew what i was getting at.

thebandit50187

now here is something to think about, did SLP in 91-92 ever think about an Camaro version of the Firehawk, like a 91-92 Camaro SS? I kinda wanted make a clone 91-92 SS Camaro a few years back after i bought my IROC but not being able to find a T-RAM or part number or specs for the heads(all i know is it has 2.00 intake valve and 1.56? exhaust valves). i did find cam specs and block info but few part numbers.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Here is an attempt to duplicate those runners...
It has worked real well on my car, allows RPM's to 6000 +

no new tires

sub-

P-7

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Lets see where this goes....

no new tires

Hey Dyno Don, how much for a pair of those runners in post 33?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Ha Ha...

You wouldn't believe what it takes to make those.

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

I was at Raceway Park, Englishtown NJ the day they tested those 2 cars I think late 1991 92, senior year in high school. The white car was there and also a red one, i think it had black stripes and maybe was a b4c??. I remember 2 different kinds of intake runners. One was a 6 speed. I couldn't believe how slow they ran. Couldn't hook them at all. I think the best run was low 14's, terrible drivers spun 1st and 2nd gears bad. I was there with my 68 SS RS Camaro for a track rental. A car mag was doing the test( a friend knew someone from the magazine and he was a tech inspector at the track) Motor Trend comes to mind but I might be wrong. My buy in was $50. Same friend powershifted my 4 speed and broke 2nd gear before I got to ever make my first run the car. I still ran 15.10 with no 2nd. pretty funny...

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

I'm thinking a little bit more and trying to remember I think the red one was a Z28 and the white one was the b4c

no new tires

I want a set and WILL pay the price.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ml#post5955501

-pm me

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Mine are SLPs, cut open, hogged out, and rewelded. Not quite like the Heritage car or Dyno Don's per se, but they are siamesed.

...but ya can't have em!!!!!!

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Buy a pair of SLP runners and maybe you can find someone
that will do that, but no one around here will.

no new tires

What is the point of your post. NOTHING, I thought so-

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

This thread is like watching a "Real Housewives" episode.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Holy cow batman. RELAX! ...deep breath. Maybe a pill or two if necessary.

What I was GOING to say, was that while Dyno Don's are a bit more involved, the way mine are done is a bit easier. Basically you're just cutting the sides open so they can be ported further. Not saying ANYONE can do it, and to be honest I purchased them already done, so I can take the credit, but my point is that you don't have to be a professional fabricator to see some high end results. I think short of the welds, I probably could've done the porting. I can booger weld, but that's about it.

no new tires

(...but ya can't have em!)

Don't make any dumb posts then...

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

..

no new tires

You ready to cough up those runners yet. Let me see the pics-

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I'll have to dig up some pics tonight when I'm on my home PC. ...Unless I can find the original "for sale" thread from when I bought them. I'll look.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Here's the original for sale thread. Steve did an amazing job on these. ...anyhow, typically the plenum side is siamesed in as far as possible, but you can't get to the middle unless you cut em, which Steve did. ...and in your case, if you had a iamesed base, you'd just open up the runners a little more. Since my base isn't saimesed obviously I haven't opened up the runners any further. ...what I was saying earlier was that it wouldn't be too difficult (relative to what Dyno Don did to his) to do something like this.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...enum-sold.html