ok here we go.. i keep being told that you cannot make a tuned port car go fast.. i have a 88 formula with a 60,xxx mile 305 and am considering building a motor for it.. i was gonna buy a zz4 motor for it but a few LS1 guys have been telling me that it isint worth it because tuned port cars dont breathe ...please no flaming just some help..what set-ups are out there,or opinions would be great...i dont want to throw tons of money at just to get it to go in the low 13`s or high 12`s..

 

HSR 383 with a nice cam... that right there will have you going pretty close to 11's if you build it right and get traction.

also, getting the stock TPI setup ported out will put out some nice numbers with a procharger in front of it. that right there will be 11's

 

Just boost it!! Theres no replacement for displacement except BOOST.
Turbo or Supercharge it.

 

a mild 350TPI can run mid to low 12s pretty easily. LS1's are revvers but off the line they will be looking at ur tail lights for quite some time its in the end where they get u. personally like TPI383camaro said... a 383 HSR will do better and let u run wit the LT1's/LS1s. thats what im building.

high flow base....ported more.
high flow runners... ported
and a ported plenum all matched and u got a good intake system with a 52mm-58mm TB, it will make good HP and still have all the torque of a TPI and more

CHP did a build 87350TPI maro that ran 12.4
it had a 350 built well
zz9 TPIS cam
high flow base non ported
high flow runners non ported
ported plenum
corvette L98 aluminum heads with some spring work for the lift
24lb injectors with adj FPR
custom tune
a TCI street fighter 700r4
3.42 rear with posi anything more radical will take a TPI outa its power range
LCAs/torque arm/panhard rod

and it ran consistent 12.3-12.4s

 

Heres one that went 9.75 @ 141.5 on basically a stock bottom end (150k miles) with near stock tpi and junkyard turbos... <Actually i believe his 9 second runs were not on the junkyard turbos, but he was in the 10's somewhere>

All it takes is a little boost. You dont have to wind an engine to the moon to go fast.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/ind...opic=61219.500

 

HSR 383??? i take HSR is a company of sorts?

 

HSR=Holley Stealth Ram

Getting low 13's shouldnt be hard, there's quite a few guys running that. Probably line out how much you have to spend and go from there. And for your LS1 friends there are some pretty lethal TPI cars out there, like the one mentioned above and some other ones as well.

 

dollar for dollar it may be cheaper to drop the LS1 in. you can get a LS1 for $2000 and the swap should cost another $1000 or so. Then sell off the TPI parts / motor for $500.

I love the old SBC but the LSX motors are hard to beat.

 

stock the TPI can't breath. as has been said porting the stock intake & some aftermarket runners helps, but not by a lot.
boost of some kind will give you good numbers.
if you have emissions testing, you'll probably have problems with the HSR, it has no EGR provisions. the FIRST intake would be a good option in this case & its a long tube runner TPI intake.
around 300.00+ for a base, 250.00+ for runners, 300.00+ for a throttle body, & no plenum, for a little more you have the complete FIRST intake. if you want to stay with a LTR TPI, the FIRST intake is the only choice IMO.
BBK is suppose to be coming out with a new intake, the question is when & how much.
if not having emissions isn't a problem & you don't want to boost it, a set of vortec heads, a good intake & a cam to match everything should get you some good numbers, as long as you can hookup & not break.

going to a bigger motor you'll need injectors & possibly a better fuel pump.
to get the most out of it, you'll need to get the stuff & learn to burn your own chips.

 

350 engine block
later model "powdered metal" connecting rods
hyperutectic pistons, appx 10.5:1 compression
Trick Flow 195 or AFR Eliminator 195 heads
Comp XFI268HR camshaft
24lbs or 30lbs injectors
Edelbrock TPI intake manifold with custom porting to eliminate dead spots near injectors
Siamesed intake runners
(or Holley Stealth Ram instead of above)
52mm throttle body
"Dyno Don" or SLP 1 3/4" headers
Custom mandrel-bent 2 1/2" dual-cat y-pipe
3" or 3.5" aftermarket exhaust, your choice of muffler.
Subframe connectors
Lower Control Arm relocation brackets
Beefed up 10-bolt or 9-bolt rear end with 3.73 gears
T56 trans or 700R4 trans w/ 2800+ stall converter
Sticky drag radials like Mickey Thompson ET Streets
Custom prom tuning required

That's my combo for a low 12 second TPI thirdgen. At sea level you'll be knocking on 11's.

Yes LS1's are better and can put out more power but its my opinion there are more negatives than positives trying to stuff one into a thirdgen. And the aftermarket parts for them are more expensive then regular SBC parts.

 

Depends what you consider "fast tuned ports."

I think mine is rather fast considering the use.
Ive not been to the track or have any slips yet, but..
I have run my buddy's LT1 Firebird and he can't touch
me.. from a roll I bet he'd edge me out though.

Id like to guess Im around the 13.9-14.2 area
when compared to the LT1 car.. Ive spent less
than $2300 getting this setup rolling.

I run a stock prom, cammed L98 with modded
#081 305 heads. Id like to stuff a more aggressive cam in her with aluminum L98 heads in the future.. need more cash!

It's my daily driver and I get at least 19 or so mpg
on the street in my thirdgen, and it's cost effective
and reliable! Cheap to replace and fix components when they break down.

I think Kevin91Z makes a valid point, there are more negatives than postives snugging a LSX motor in our cars..

But, Id like to do a LS swap if the oppurtunity presents itself.. on a different thirdgen though.

 

Boost will solve your problems

 

The only reason why boost would cause me to
scratch my head is this:

a boosted modded L98 VS. a equivilently boosted LS car.
Would a L98 and it's 60 footer sprints prevail over it?
Or does the LS take off like a rocketship!? :P

 

I've been there done that. I would go with an LS motor hands down. Cam motor only can get you low 12's

 

Most LS engines are also aluminum blocks, and they respond nicely to a few simple mods, which TPI cars do not. However, since so many people think TPI's are dogs, it's just so much more soul satisfying to spank 'em with your TPI car. Any dork with a checkbook can make his LS car faster, but you have to really know what you're doing to get a TPI car to run well. As Kevin said, it can be done, but you must change almost everything internally, the original TPI intakes and engines were not designed to rev, and you have to spin any engine to get to the real power potential.

TA

 

"However, since so many people think TPI's are dogs, it's just so much more soul satisfying to spank 'em with your TPI car. " thats kinda what im talking about.. i dont care too much about beating the other guy as for more of a personal gain kinda thing..i just want a mid 12 second respectable third gen.. so keep the ideas comming!

 

If I had the cash.. this is what Id do!

Run the FIRST injection LTR setup & stroke a 350 out.
Id run a set of modded L98 aluminums given the sucess
past people have had.. and it wont cost $2-3000 dollars
for a pair, save money for the rotating assembly!

I dont reccomend a 5 or 6spd transmission, though it's
fun! The TQ responds well to the 700r4 and shoots you
out of the hole like the best race cars could.

Really the problem is the OBDI, you gotta learn how to
burn your own stuff or at least know guys who can.
I dont care what parts you have, it needs to know
how to run itself.

Id want to expieriment with a OBDII with a 85mm MAF
later in life.. I will have a potent TPI one day, and it will
get out of it's own way! Speed Density cars are too
"tune reliant" and MAF cars bottleneck your airflow.

You wont have either problem with a 85mm MAF

Ive heard a few sucess stories that
have me nearly convinced to try!

High 12's aint hard.. most of the info is already on
these forums. Search, search and did I say search?

 

Dont bother with the L98 aluminums on a 383 engine. They have too small of combustion chambers, and too small of intake ports to work effectively. Go with the Trick Flow 195's or the AFR Eliminator 195's for about $1400.

 

ok no HP difference really with newer LS1 blocks... besides weight savings bc its aluminum, and revised cooling/bolt configs. a block is a block hardly any power difference, they have stouter bottom ends and able to take more abuse with stock components unlike TPI's, although ive seen stock 2bolt cast pistons/cranks take 3rd gens into the 9s and not die. LS1/lt1's get us bc they flow better i mean lets face it ls1's have 20yrs of technology and enginneering over us. they get us with the head/intake/cam/valve train.
look at the Lt1... they revised the heads alil for better flowing but with a simple intake change they increase power from 225 hp to 275hp. then the ls1's went up to 330hp with the same changes. a TPI will take lt1/ls1 off the line but top end they beat us.

this is wat im building, all i need is a rotating assembly.
383 with 9-9.5 compression (forged/hyper i dont kno yet)
holley steath ram with adjust fuel rail kit
58mm TB
30lb ford SVO injectors
195cc patriot performance aluminum heads (over 260cfm at .6 lift)
comp XFI280 cam 230/236 duration .567/.570 lift 113 lobe
new roller lifters/true cloyes double roller chain/comp extreme energy pushrods
1.6 extruded aluminum full roller rockers
custom chip
exhaust/suspension in sig

im looking for 500 crank HP and roughly 380-400rwhp.... id say thats enough to get low 12's with out a prob with stock 3.23 gears. throw 3.42-3.73 and hello high 11's. i left compression low for pump gas and so if i wanted to throw alil boost at it in the future if i have a death wish. i know 8.5 :1would be better. but this will idle nicely, run on pump gas, have good vacum for brakes and cruise control etc and will be a freaky fun daily driver.

throw the L98 aluminum heads away... they are CRA!P stock vortec's flow alot better than them. i got my 195cc patriots for 890$ shipped to my door, they flow enough for 500hp with over 260cfm at .6 and over 270cfm at .7 lift. i just couldnt pay that insane amout of $$ for AFR's/trick flows...even tho they are good heads they flow about the same as the patriots.

for 830$ i got...
195cc aluminum heads... 64cc chambers, extra thick decks, straight plugs
ported intake/exhaust runners
CNC machined combustion chambers... partly
5 angle valve job with stainless high quality valves
vitton seals
2.02/1.6 valves.... for 60$ more i coulda gotten 2.06 valves
3/8 screw in studes
upgraded dual valve springs good for .670 lift with a roller cam
FOR 830$$$ BEAT THAT and 60$ shipping=total 890$ assembled

a 383 needs to breath

 

What do you guys think is the cheapest way to get into the 12's?

 

There is no cheap way to add 100 horsepower, unless you use nitrous, and that opens a whole other can of worms.

 

i dunno about tht i think that would depend on what you consider cheap.

i think a lt4 cam, and a **** load of porting properly tuned would be damn close to a 100hp increase, i definetly would consider a cam gasket kit and porting cheap myself.

maybe 250$ for a 80hp or so increase at least.

that is providing the intake and exhaust side can flow the extra air from the bigger cam.

hell ported intakes have been shown to increase up to 30 hp, same with full exhaust, same with cams with ease, these cars aren't pricey to modify imo.

 

So you think a good cam, tune, exhaust, and ported induction would get to the 12's?

 

idk how u would get all that with a cam/porting stock heads.

CHP did a test with a stock 87 TPI 350, they put vortech heads with vortec high flow base and stock TPI and it ran 305 hp. thats a 60hp increase. usually our cars get 50hp with this upgrade. they then added the Lt4 hot cam and large tube runners and 1.6rr and it jumped to 355hp. thats another 50hp. no porting was done to plenum, used stock TB and MAF, and stock chip. thats roughly 100hp over stock

cost...
vortec heads machined for higher lift =630$
TPI vortec highflow base=400$
LT4 hot cam=200$
1.6 roller rockers=lets say 100$ for stamped steel
high flow runners= edelbrock 250$

total=
for 50 hp=1030$
for 105hp=1680$
not to bad for the $

 

My plan is to take a world Performance block build it up with premium 406 forged bottom end parts, factory center plenum aggressively ported, slp runners siamesed home porting and accel bottom intake home porting, A.F.R. 195 cc heads, already got the trans { done up 4L60 custom built 550+ hp capable, custom manufactured T.C.I.S. 2400 stall nitrous converter). My dyno program when I put the specs in it gives me at least 480 hp and 580 tq I think it will work.When I put Nitrous to it on a on a 150 shot I get around 510 hp and over 800 tq at 2800 rpm. It will take a lot of money but I looked at the LS-1,2,7 they are to complicated to much computer work but where I live I am going the cheaper route any way. I can do the same with a sbc and the right suspension at the track it's been done before.

 

Not a chance. That'll get you in the 13's. You need better heads to get into the 12's, as the stock heads suck. You will gain more power with Trick Flow or AFR Eliminator heads with a stock cam, than you will with an upgraded cam and stock heads. Not to mention stock heads wont take any camshaft with lift higher than .480" AND the stock valve springs and timing chain are very worn out after working for 20+ years.