How much gain in performance can i expect from heads, headers, chip, or any other $1500 combination of add-ons? my car runs strong w/103k. Would I have to re-build the bottom end? I am looking for 250-300hp(in the long run, not after just $1500 in mods.)
any advice welcome.

Thanks all


------------------
86 Z-28,305,700r-4,t-top.
"DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!!!!!!!!!!"

 

headers(330), cat-back(250), cam non-roller/valve springs/gskets(300), chip(70-170+), cold air(>50 homemade to 200 bought), porting stuff for fun(~20+), something for the 700r4, stall($$$) That comes to around $1500 or less and should get your 305 TPI to at least real low 14s and more likely 13s. I'd worry more about the tranny and rear than the engine handling the power. Stud girdle ($150).

------------------
14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

 

humm Fuel system Upgrade $200, NOS $500, MDS ignition to retaard under NOS load, $300, and you would have $500 for other bolt ons.

 

I can tell you that I have already spent about $1300 on a few mods and have seen a lot of improvement. Now everything that I have put on or have moded can be put into a 350 which I plan on doing in the future. So I wouldn't spend a whole lot of money on parts that will only fit or are optimal for the 305 if you plan on swaping the engine anyway.

88 GTA, 305/700R4, 96K
Free Mods, K&N, Jet Airfoil, Crane AFPR, MSD 6A/Coil, Holley 9mm Annihilator Cables, TES, Catco verter (3" exhaust), Hypertech Thermomaster w/switch & stat, Perma Cool dual Fans, Flow Kooler water pump, March Performance Underdrive Pulleys.

 

I'm not knocking 305's here, but a buddy of mine just built a pretty nice 350 for right around 2K. Have you thought about this option? $1500 just seems like a lot of money in upgrades to me. Just a thought.

 

My next project is gonna be a 305, so I got ideas for ya, that I think are worth getting out of the way first, as it will make everything else you do that much better.

I would go with heads and headers.

That should about be the bank right there, once those are done everything else you do will get you better results than if you leave out heads.

As I have read else where on this board all power comes from the heads everything you do is for A/F in and out of the heads. As I see it, why not get the most expensive parts out of the way first, then all the $50-$300 bolt-ons you can do everyonce and awhile and see more gain.

Just my .02

------------------
1989 Trans Am GTA

 

Thats nothing. Thats a full exhaust, cam, chip, ignition upgrade. Thats not too many mods if you ask me.
THough they would really give a lot of improvement. If you are only wanting to spend the $1500 and go fast follow my above recipe. IF you want to add more later go with a full exhaust, Cam, Igniton upgrade, a fast chip.

------------------
89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

You knew it was coming, so here it is:
BUY A 350!!!!!
GM Goodwrench 350, Hedman Headers, flywheel, cam.

Once the cubes are in, it's easy to swap heads in the car ....

------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

1500$ is a lot, so i'd do following mods:

- super ram, ram jet, miniram or LT1(if you're adventurous DYI guy) intake
- headers
- 3" cat back (aerochamber)

i think those mods would fit to your budget and the best part is, you don't have to pull off the valve covers!

with stock cam 305 works just fine low rpm and with improved induction and exhaust makes it pull strongly past 5000rpm barrier. you're 250+ category for sure and mileage won't suffer too much. idea is to unchoke TPI engine and let it breath these mods leave plenty of room for future mods like heads, cam, etc. so you'll do investment that could be used with any mods in the future.


-P

 

Don't waste/spend your money on intake pieces, mini-ram or super ram will cost more than $1500, every heard of gaskets, custom tunning (pontiac)? My 305 TPI (5 speed) goes mid 14s at 96 mph with little more than $700 in performance mods. I don't even have a cat-back exhaust, just muffler/high flow cat(to pass emissions) replaced the gutted cat. If I wanted to keep it really cheap, I have a used cam 214/220 $60, valve springs $70, 1.6 roller rockers $150, gaskets for the swap ~$50, siamese base $40 plus porting work.(the base isn't needed) Lets see that comes to less than $450 more included the fudge factor. $1200-1500 total, I bet I'll run 13s with that, but I want to do some head porting as well(which adds some cost and time).

There's always Nitrous... BOOM!! I'll have my kit running soon.

I also don't see swaping in a new 350 coming in at less than $1500 or even $2000. Wait until that 305 dies before putting in a 350.

------------------
14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

 

10067353
1969-85 GM Vehicles 350 Engine $1,289.95
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=128&pid=110

Then you buy oil, coolant, and some intake gaskets. If those cost you more than 210 bucks, you are shopping at the wrong store.

 

bwahaha, there goes TPI guy again recomending a 350 as a performance upgrade to a stock TPI car.
Do you really think a stock 350 w/ junk heads and cam trying to breathe through the stock intake and stock exhaust manifolds with a tight stock converter and stock programming in the computer will be faster than a 305 w/ vette heads, a mild cam, S10 converter and a ported stock intake, w/ SLP headers, maybe with some PROM tuning for flavor? I'm not a betting man and i'd still lay $500 on the outcome of that race.
I think TPI guy is gonna be one mad dude when my heavy *** 305 convertible matches his 13.9 on the stock long block next year. Will he still preach about 350s when yet another 305 is smoking him?

------------------
Ed Maher - Moderator @ The TPI & Carb Boards
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
305 TPI A4 2.73 - 14.7 @ 93.6
Stock except ported plenum and dual cats
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

 

Do you really think that engine would beat even a stock 305 TPI? I mean look at the cam in there, weaker than stock 350 TPI cams, 72cc iron stock heads?, lets see, intake gaskets/TPI gaskets (~$40), H20 pump(~$50), flywheel/flexplate($150/80), oil/coolant/filter(~$15) + whatever shipping costs(~$80 maybe) and a cherry picker at least ($20+) assuming you can borrow a friends for some beer.

Hmmmm, all that $$ and work for an engine that will probably make less than 225 hp with stock TPI, manifolds and chip. That's the worst mod I've seen posted yet. spend $1500+ to make less hp than a stock speed density 305 TPI. TPI guy, you have got to be kidding.


------------------
14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

 

Correct me if Im wrong but isn't a Goodwrench engine like a truck replacement????

no one buys goodwrench motors ... they by ZZ's, and that is not 1500!!

305 with 1500 will smoke a stock 350tpi and be damn close to an LT1, if things are matched right.

I again go with what I said and second Ed (same opinion), with Heads and headers and left over money to converter and such.

------------------
1989 Trans Am GTA

 

ok then - no super ram

my humble original idea was to purchase parts which is good investment. later on when it's time to make car really move those parts could be still in use. stock TPI configuration without NOS or charger is not for serious performance. you can beat geo metro's but that's it. IMHO, TPI biggest problem is the intake. nice intake for trucks or RV's, but not for sport car. i'm pretty sure 305 is big engine enough, i know some guys who actually driver smaller! even 2.8

so why not change decent intake and exhaust first? then you can take a look for heads, cam and so on.


-P

------------------
Pontiac Trans Am GTA'89

CC1 GW6 G80 JG1 L98 MXO N64 WS6 822

mods: firebird '89 four spoke steering wheel and i'm still not running low 13's yet!

 

I am not claiming this to be under $1500, but this recipe should keep you in the ball park. However, I have no idea what this engine would crank out. I am using a lot of the things my buddy used plus some of my own ideas (he build a carbureted 350 engine, I am converting a 307 to TPI and building a 350):

virgin bore 2 bolt 350 ('71 vintage)and a good TH350 tranny----->$250

Sell Tranny: -$100
Machining: $800 (lets stay on the high side though to keep this fair): $1000

Rebuild Kit: at the time (about 2years ago) he paid $200 for his from Summit. I don't remember all that it had but it was pretty complete.----->$200-250

I recently priced a cam (hydraulic flat tappet) for the TPI 307 in my Malibu with better specs than the cam in that new engine for $300 from Comp (I think the lift #'s were something like .444/.444...don't remember duration or any of that). However, that was the cam with lifters and springs. The cam alone was right around 1-150.---->$150

As far as heads go, Ed has a point. Those L98 heads are nice pieces. However, Hot Rod did a Junkyard Jewel piece awhile back stating that the 350 TPI iron heads flow just as well, so the only thing you are really giving up is 10-15 HP in compression (not a bad sacrifice given the price difference). I believe they paid $40 for theirs.----------->lets say $50

I don't remember if they paid to have them cleaned up or not so lets spend the extra $100-$150.------->$150


Now assuming you have the tools, you could probably do some minor grinding and free up some airflow in the TPI plenum and manifold yourself.------>free

Have some fun with those heads, they only cost you $150...do some reading and try a little pocket porting----------->free

**Side Note** I think powerhouse sells a thermal barrier coating kit for $70. Just apply yourself to the iron heads and bump the compression another 1/2 point (conservative estimate again). This should provide some leverage against the aluminum heads.

Because the cam is a fairly mild piece, Comp told me it would work OK with the stock computer (MAF) though they said it would work better with some custom chip work. I plan on gettting into the chip work myself in the next year, but for now I paid $60 (local recommendation) and had it done. Because they did say it will work with the stock MAF, lets just leave it at that. Get a chip from a junkyard.-------->$20


After you buy all the little stuff like coolant, oil, filters, etc, etc, etc. You probably have around $2000 into the engine here. But this should be a decent engine. Not outstanding, but it should give a mildly built 305 a run easily. I kept all the prices on the high side to stay objective, and if you don't have a cherry picker or other things (air tools, dremel, etc.) the price obviously goes up, but if you are into cars and building engines, you should probably have this stuff anyway.

Bottom line: I would rather have a 350.
Why? I (Theoretically)just spent $2000 for a mild 350 that should give most 305's a run (note: I am NOT saying this will beat or hang with any particular 305. I already know 305's are capable of running strong and it all depends on what each engine has.) Plus, it is of my OPINION that a 350 will respond better to upgrades (ie. airflow) than a 305. If you shell out for a SuperRam, Mini Ram, a headers, cam, or better heads down the line, you will make more power cubic inch for cubic inch than a 305.

[This message has been edited by rockind78 (edited October 30, 2001).]

 

OK, guys, I don't mind doing your homework. Did you fail to notice he has a 103,000 mile 305? Buy it now or buy it later, a new shortblock is on the way whether he buys it with cash or on credit, you make the call.

Compression ratio is 8.5:1
L98 is around 9-9.3
The engine, as it stands, is rated at 259 hp.

If these heads are the 882 heads, they have better flow numbers than the ones on the stock L98's.

Summitt sells headers Heddman $100
HED-68470
Hedman Y pipe $100
HED-17470

Let's buy you a cam
SUM-K1102.... cam/lifters $72
(the same cam listed for the tpi kit)
ROL Intake Gaskets $10
$20 cherry picker
$.79 fuel pump gasket
$7 RTV blue
$20 oil, coolant, coca cola
...A water pump is not $50 dollars. Where are you buying your waterpumps?
$15
Your TPI gaskets are fine.
$40 bucks for a flexplate

...$1675

I just built you a brand new 350 with a cam and headers for within 13% of the original 1500 limit. I am now going to reference The GoodWrench Quest, please everyone follow the link to the quest where you will see the simulated et of 13.97@96 mph.

http://www.aros.net/~rbuck/chp/Welcome.html

Ed, you talk a lot of smack for a 14.7 @ 93.6. If we are using the rule that 1 mph=10hp, then I still have 80 horse on you. You can start talking smack when you have a time slip in hand ... and if I run the same 2.3 60' next year, I give you permission to talk all the smack you want.


------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

rockin...i don't dispute that once the 305 has gone south there is no reason to not drop a 350 in it's place. There is no replacement for displcement. What you 350 pushers are misssing is this one simple fact... It's not about the cost of the shortblock. The fact is, if you want to make power you still need good heads, headers, a lot of intake work or new parts, a decent cam and some computer work. If you want to effectively use that power you still need a torque converter and maybe some gears depending on what you have. Whether you have a 305 or 350, the costs are the same. And if given the choice between a 305 with $1500 worth of the above mentioned parts, or a bare bones rebuild of a 350 sans goodies like headers and intake, etc, it's a no brainer, i'll take the 305.
If you have a 305 that is in good shape there is NO REASON to scrap it unless your goal is to get past low 13s. Even then a 305 can do it, it just gets harder (and i'm still talking NA, if you don't believe in fast NA 305s, take a look at tim burgesses results with stock TPI intake 305s.) If you want proof that a 350 does not guarantee you better ETs, all you have to do is look at TPI guy's ET (and he has aftermarket heads, headers, cam, etc.) 13.9 @ 102 is gravy for a properly running LB9 in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Like i said in my previous post, depending on my mood come spring, i may decide to see how fast the stock unopened longblock will take me in my vert. And i firmly believe i can get it into the high 13s w/o taking off the valve covers. And it's not like i'll be the first one, more than a few people have gotten bolt on 305 cars into the 13s. Matt98SS used to run 13.6s in a bolt on only 91 Z 305.

In closing, let's keep it real people. If someone wants advice on mods for a 305, let's stick to the subject. Throwing out costs for budget rebuilt 350s is completely irrelevant since it still needs the same stuff to work effectively.

 

you posted as i did TPI guy. First off let me make sure you read the claim right, i said i'd match the ET, not MPH on the stock unopened longblock. 102 mph will be tough carrying all this weight in a less aerodynamic vert (with an auto tranny too)and will definitely take more work. Anyhow, 2.3 60' or not, i wouldn't preach 350 when plenty of 305s have beaten the numbers you're getting.

103k miles does not mean it's on it;s way out. I had a buddy who had an 87 monte SS w/ L69. With long tubes/duals, intake, shift kit and thats about it he was running 14.3s. He put in a comp 280 magnum against my advice (way too much cam for a 305) and was running 14.0 @ 100. With a properly sized cam he would definitely have run faster. Oh yeah, the point. He did the cam swap @ 140k miles, including 60k+ of it as all hard teenage street demon abuse.
Hell, i'm up to 95k on mine now and i'll prolly have 100k before winter's over with all the driving i do. Is that going to stop me from putting a cam and heads on it? No, b/c it's in perfect running order.

You left some stuff out of your budget guess.

The hedman headers and Y are non-emmisions legal, and also don't come w/ an O2 bung. Small details, but they do matter to the vast majority of readers. Also, you need som exhaust work to mate it to the stock cat, IIRC the hedman Y is a 2.5" dump. Basically, hidden costs here are adding to the nickel and dimes of it.

Summit cam kit. I reckon if you're going to run junk heads you might as well scrimp on the cam since you can't utilize a better lobe anyhow. if you plan on running real head you're going to want to replace this with a modern grind though.

Anyhow, with it all said and done, which would I choose the above, or {vette L98s ($600 max), SLP headers ($500 after installation kit), S10 converter ($200), ZZ4 cam ($50 used, plentiful), gasket set (~$50)} on a 305 in good running order. I'd take the 305. Then, in a couple years or whatever when the 305 dies, you transfer all of those components (save the gasket set) to a 350. No money lost.

 

Well the TPI biggest problem in the early years is the CAM. Period. The cam sucks the most *** of anything in the world.
The LT1 intake would just lose the idea of the TPI system in the first place. The 305 needs the Tuned runners to help it produce the Torgue neede to compete with larger displacement motors. So you best bet is to buy runners that fit your RPM band. Well that is when you have everything in your long block done so you heads match you cam match your intak match you gears BLABLABLA.

Oh and you dont think a TPI without NOS or a supercharger can make a camaro fast?

WEll I have news for you, you can make a world of difference in your own garage with a dremel and a few cone and drum sanders.
You havent been here long, but we have and I had a Stock style intake on a 355 with a SLP cam stock TPI 305 heads and was turning 13.9's on a Hyperjunk chip, mistuned state with 2.77 gears. So you figure a custom Prom, 3.42 gears, and a set of AFR heads... 13.3 or below easily. Then if I would have fed the girl a little laughing gas maybe some mid 12's? Who knows wish I could get the car back and see where it would end up, but I have a TTA now and its even beeter picking on V8 guys with a V6, and imports no longer have their favorite excuse about "you have a V8", I just reply with no its a 6 lol

------------------
89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

Mr. Pontiac, I didn't say there was anything wrong with the superram or mini-ram as a mod for someone with a higher budget. I agree the TPI is a POS, and should've been installed in every truck built, not performance cars, but it will support power well into the mid 13s (325+hp)in a 350 and I can't wait to get rid of it and the low end tractionless torque it possess, but that's expensive.

I got one, why do you all want so much torque, my car will already lite the tires under acceleration(i.e. full throttle at 1500-2000 rpm, wheels spinning from 3000-4500 rpm) in first occasionally and it's a mostly stock 305 with 3.42 gears. I don't tow anything, I don't run full slicks, I don't need anymore low end torque. Imagine if I had a mildly built 350 TPI and say 3.73s or 3.42s, I'd have to start in 2nd just to get usuable traction.

Summit cam....Pleeeaaase...

Please give these guys good mods that will swap to a 350 at a later date, instead of this build a junk 350 and run junk times for a 350.

I can't wait until I put in the cam in my closet. BTW, I bought my car in hurt up condition(transmission smacking the floor boards, etc. from a 2nd owner who was in his 20s, can you say neglect and beat on for 7 years/40,000+ miles) with 7x,xxx miles ~18 months ago. It just passed 100,000 miles this weekend and I beat on it everyday, sure the tranny is hurt and the 9-bolt is gone, but these cars are performance cars(supposed to be at least) and meant to be DRIVEN.

------------------
14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

 

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all of the advice. I would like to keep the 305 untill it dies, but that may be a while. I think that the idea of buying parts that will swap to the 350 is a smart one. I have a friend with an IROC 5-spd w/350 that can light mine up. I have a hard time beliving that I can build a 305 with the ability to match it's performance, but you guys have obviously done it. A couple questions though.I, will I have to re-build the low end w/new heads?II, won't 350 heads lower the comp. ratio? If it doesn't, I will get trick flows, or edelbrocks. Thanks for all of your help.


------------------
86 Z-28,305,700r-4,t-top.
"DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!!!!!!!!!!"

 

In closing, let's keep it real people. If someone wants advice on mods for a 305, let's stick to the subject. Throwing out costs for budget rebuilt 350s is completely irrelevant since it still needs the same stuff to work effectively.[/B][/QUOTE]

As far as the mods go, its ultimately up to the person doing them. The ONLY reason I suggested a 350 (yes I know, not directly related to the subject) is because of the budget laid out and the heads that were suggested (L98's). The recipe I laid out basically uses the iron version (which I have read are basically the same except for casting material and probably CC size due to compression) and a decent cam. The engines need the same stuff to perform, granted, but the stuff for an ideal 305 and an ideal 350 are still somewhat different (size-wise...cam, headers, etc.). I am not gonna go into it any further than that because most of the people reading this (from what I can gather from posts I have read) are pretty sharp and know what I am talking about. Anyway, this topic is getting a little old so I am gonna let it rest.

In closing, Ed if you are reading this, I would like to know what the favorable traits are about an S10 converter. I have not heard about this application before. Does it have a higher stall speed or something? Just wondering.

 

with an EX256 cam, world SR torquer 305's 1.6 rockers, performer intake, headers, and a 3" exhaust you should make some where to the tune of 342 HP. This is the set up Im going to run on my 305 but it is a TBI so you would ahve to change accordingly.

 

DeepsouthZ28, The heads are a big issue with 305 vs. 350 b/c heads with 2.02/1.60 valves will not work on a 305 due the bore clearance. If you like Aluminum L98 "vette" heads, they can be made to flow well with costly porting(~$1000+ including cost of used heads). Stock iron L98 heads will work, but compression will drop badly. If your changing your budget and thinking high roller, there are the AFR heads with 1.94/1.55 valves for ~$1600. These will give the 305 potential approaching 400hp N/A, and could then swap to a 350/383 and make up to 500hp. These are boarderline street engines BTW. I don't know of anyone running these AFR heads on a 305 with EFI. Maybe me in ~6 months if my 305 doesn't die by then and I have patience. If you can wait a month, I should have considerably more work done to my car and can give some results. Heads and TPI style manifolds are the only things keeping 305s out of the 12 sec range N/A. I wish someone who had the funds would do it to shut everyone up.

------------------
14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

 

Thanks Beast, I appreciate all of the advice im getting from you, and the others. I just have one unawnsered question, will I need to rebuild the bottom end?(rings, bearings,exc?)I'm wondering if a strong top end with thoes old rings will kill them.

Thanks again, I will keep you all posted.

------------------
86 Z-28,305,700r-4,t-top.
"DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!!!!!!!!!!"

 

DeepsouthZ28, I think this pretty much sums it up. If your engine is in good running order and the rings and what not seem good then run it. The only thing I would do is a compression check and a leakdown check first. This should tell you the condition of your rings. If they are in acceptable condition, then I say go for it.

 

Ok, how about this combo:
1992-93 Caprice, Fleetwood
5.7L / 350 Engine
Price: $1,487.75
Part # 12513151
"This engine is also commonly used in 1987-92 Camaro and Firebird cars with TPI as a replacement for the original 305 or 350 engine."

EDL-6872 $313.95
Chevrolet: 1986-1990 Camaro Z-28, IROC and Pontiac Formula 5.0L and 5.7L TPI engines with single 3 in. inlets...

SB Chevy 350 Hydraulic Camshaft
Price: $189.95
Part # 10185071
Duration @ 0.050" Lift: 208/221
Lift: .474"/.510"
Lobe Separation: 112
Type: Hydraulic roller tappet

FEL-MS930351 $29.39
Chevy: 1987-93 305, 350 with tuned port fuel injection,intake manifold gasket set ...

Will you allow me $20 bucks for oil and coolant.

Grand Total...$2041
..but you have a complete 305 shortblock just sitting in your garage. According to you guys, this thing should be worth it's weight in gold, but I think about $350 would be a pretty good price ( I sold one for that price).

Hey you also have a roller cam left over ... that's another $30.

New total ... $1661

Now you have an emissions legal 350 with a zz4 cam, headers that will bolt right up to your cat, and the brand new intake gaskets you keep charging 50 bucks for ...
My guess is about 100-101MPH in the quarter, probably like a 13.7-13.8 with a good 60'

Admittedly, it will probably cost more than this, but when you set out to spend 1500 on parts alone, you know D@mn well it will cost you much more than that whether that money is spent on a cam, heads, an intake or a complete engine, so let's not dwell on the details. As for an engine puller ... go make some friends. Everyone knows someone with an engine puller. Make friends with me and I'll pull it for you.

Another thing, stop sandbagging. Don't list used prices, and then try to compare them to my brand new 350. For purchasing, use list prices. Also, when you list used prices, what about machine work. You are going to buy your aluminum heads from some guy off the street and just put them on your car? You are going to want a three angle valve job, not to mention angle milling to keep a decent compression ratio for the 305.$600 for corvette heads? Corvette L98's list for
Price: $419.50
Part # 12556463

Ed, you and I both know that I'm about a set of drag radials away from a 13.5, and you have got about 80 horse and a set of drag radials. I'm sure you can do it, but you have to realize, that is where I was ... If I'm still there next spring, I'm doing something wrong. As it stands now, they only way you could make up the gap is with the help of a little blue bottle.



------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

Ed,, I hope you don’t think this is a personal attack. The L69 Monte Carlo SSs ran on average in the low 16 second range,, occasionally one could break in the 15’s in nice cool weather on a good night. The quickest stock SS out of over 10 I’ve tested (and modified) ran 15.86. Even Hypertech data I was privy to when they used my SS in part of their R&D for their chips showed of the 5 they tested before mine, 16.01 was the fastest (one was a slow as 16.7). So with 15.86 being the fastest of over 15 stock Monte SS I’ve tested or seen valid info on,, you really think headers, duals, intake, and a shift kit can drop a L69 over 1.5 seconds? Come on man,, 15.80 – 14.30,, you would have to add more than 65 horses to the rear wheels,, or add approximately 36% more power to the wheels than “stock”. Most of the 10+ I modified involved a cams swap,, I swapped out 4 cams in my own Monte when it had the L69 as “R&D” . I’ve worked on almost as many L69 F-body cars. With the mods you listed,, 15 teens were typical. Add in a “good” cam you were looking at 14.70 on a good night with slicks. Your buddy didn’t give you all the info on the mods,, no way,, no how.

You 305 guys might find these dyno figures I dug up from 1987 interesting. HP numbers for a LG4 305,, uncapped 1.625” long tube “dyno” header
-------2000---2500---3000----3500---4000---4500---5000---5500
Stock cam, Wieand Dual plane, Holley 600 Carb
-------100----134-----160----189-----206----224-----227--------
Stock cam, EdelbrockTorker II, Holley 600 carb
-------104----133-----163----190-----215----230-----229--------
214/224 – 112 cam, Torker II, Holley 600 carb
-------100----130-----160----191-----219----237-----255---260
214/224 – 112 cam, Torker II, Holley 750 vac
-------99-----130----159-----190-----221-----247----275---277
224/224 – 114 cam, Torker II, Holley 750 vac
------91-----124----152-----188-----213-----240-----272-------
Same as above swapped to L98 Vette heads
-------88-----124----154-----184-----213----243-----274---286

This pretty much is a good indication of what my personal experience has shown. 114 lobe spreads, 600 carbs, and box stock L98 Vette heads are less than impressive,, even on a 305. Throw a full exhaust in the mix and the numbers from the mods are even less impressive. My advice to the 305 folks is buy bolt ons that will transfer over to a 350,, cause if the bug bites you,, and you’re not emissions limited,, you’ll eventually swap over to a larger cubic inch engine. After the bolt ons,,, work on a killer suspension with a good torque converter and don’t buy heads for the 305. Before I’d buy heads for the 305,,, I would save for a 350 short block (or larger) and run it (once completed) with the stock 305 heads. While this might seem more costly initially if you have a lot of mile on the 305,, it’s going to go at some point,,, so in the long run it’s actually not that costly a swap. Now you at least have a foundation that lets you choose the head that is right for your application as opposed to what fits.

[This message has been edited by BadSS (edited November 02, 2001).]

 

Even though I have a stroker in my car, I am the typical hot rodder. I would love to see a 305 A4 car go 12's N/A. I'm damn curious to see it happen. There is an 86' IROC around the corner from me with similar options for $800 - OBO. I almost stop every time I drive by it. But, I'd be stuck with the problem of modding an already heavy car. My current car is heavy, but I think 383 cubic inches, a loose converter, and deep gears will overcome the weight.

Still, I think I could buy this car for around $500-600. I have an extra 87' 305 TPI long block laying around too. But, then I'd have two heavily modded cars and be forced to drive one daily. Ah, decisions.....decisions..........

------------------
1986 IROC, fully loaded, Mini Ram'd 383, Art Carr 700R4, Accel DFI, 12 bolt rear, etc, etc......

 

FYI, I spent only $1500 on my engine and this is what I got:

$460 - Home-ported 58cc heads w/ bigger valves, springs, pushrods.
$250 - Comp Cam XE262H w/ used roller-tip rockers
$600 - Edelbrock TES headers, used Hooker aerochamber cat-back & new carsound catylitic converter & installation labor
$60 - used Edelbrock performer intake
$100 - Gasket kit
______
$1470.00

My car now goes 100 MPH in the quarter mile.


------------------
Daniel Burk
View my third-gen hobbyist performance page!
View my reader's ride!
'84 Trans Am WS6/L69
KB SFC, Moser axles, Torsen Diff., Spohn Adj. torque arm,
Ported 305 heads w/1.94"intake valves, Comp Cams XE262H, Griffen alum. radiator,
Turbine Technologies 2500 stall converter, underdrive pulleys, Crane Hi-6 & more.
1.05g skidpad verified.
Best of 14.039 at 100.82 MPH in Stanton, MI
New!Full 1LE brake upgrade! Details at website above.

 

BadSS i don't take it as a personal attack. I know what the car ran and i know what it had in it. Stock it ran 15.1 -15.0s. I don't care what yours and a bunch of other ones ran, i know for a fact that this one, bone stock down to manifolds and cat ran 15.0s. I'm not doubting you believe what you're saying, but you cannot convince me he was hiding something. There was no hidden bottle involved, and i was there when he pulled the stock cam and put the comp in (hell, i stabbed the dist, ran the valves and put most of it back together.) They were the stock heads. Basically, there was nowhere he could have had any 'secrets' and do you really think a guy who can't stab a distributor is smart enough to hide something for year? It had the stock CCCS carb and distributor. He did add an MSD 6A at one point after he went through 3 modules in a month (btw, he did back to back testing at the track and the MSD was worth exactly nothing vs. a junk module.) The only other thing i left out, he did put a shift kit in after the headers which i think was a tenth from 14.4-14.3. Also, i don't know if they were all that way, but his stock converter stalled near 2200 (how much was tach error is up in the air though.)

I don't know, with what you're saying it sounds like he had a factory freak. Honestly though, it seems very plausible to me. My vert ran 15.1s stock, and is most likely heavier than a G-body (it's not only a vert but also a full option/leather, etc car) and has 2.73s and a tight converter. Besides the roller lifters, my LB9 longblock is identical to an 87 L69 longblock (081 heads, 9.x:1 compression, 'good' cam) Sure my TPI is a little torquier than an L69, but i think a 2200 stall converter and 3.73s (as well as the big 4 bolt cat vs. my stock single 2.25") from the factory give the MC SS a more than fighting chance to match the ET. But i guess now you're going to tell me that my 92 Z is a factory freak too right? I also have a very hard time believing in high 15s for L69 camaros, most of the times i've heard for them were in the high 14s. I've only actually been in one L69 Z28, and it was a reasonably quick car, nothing like a high 15 second car.

 

Ed- Before I type what I'm really thinking,,, so I'm perfectly clear about this,, you actually believe and would have others believe a totally stock Monte CArlo SS,, a 3600lb (3450 + 150 driver)automatic car with a 180 horse engine (rated 190 in the Z) could get remotely close to 15.0s?

 

Man I remember those Monte SSes being slugs. Ed, Im with BadSS on this one. I have never seen even a 14 sec Monte with bolt ons.

 

I am also planning to spend at least that much on my 305 and race it when the track opens back up. If it doesn't run really fast then I'm going to be very upset.



------------------
1986 Iroc 305 small block chevy getting modded now for speed

 

I brought this back to the top just to say, yes, i believe that car ran the #s b/c i was there on more than one occasiona ta the track (including 3 or 4 times once it was in the low 14 range), and b/c i personally touched and saw enough of the engine to know what was in it. I never said they were all that fast, but i don't believe it deserevs to be called a factory freak either.
Maybe you can explain this one to me. I had an 86 grand prix w/ an LG4. It had 2.41 or 2.56 (whichever was the availabel under 2.73s, i know that for sure, it WAS a very oddly optioned car.) With just an open element air cleaner and the whole exhaust from my friends SS (Y, hollow 4 bolt cat and dynomax muffs) it ran 16.5 @ 85 or 86. A week later i finally learned how to set timing and when i slappped a light on it the timing was actually retarded ABDC. Bumped it up to like 10-14' (forget exactly) and it was like a new car, it could burnt tires at will, etc, even to the point that gas mileage went up several MPGs. In other words, it easily had at least another couple tenths in it.
Now if you can explain to me how a car with factory 3.73s, a MUCH hotter cam , more compression, and a looser converter is not at least a second faster than a 2.41 geared LG4, well....i know, i'm lying about my grand prix too right?
Dude do you live in freakin colorado?

Or we can go back to my earlier example of my Z28 vert. It's go t be at least as heavy as a G-body. I has the same longblock except w/ roller lifters and slighly different cam. W/ 2.73s and ridiculously tight converter. Also take into account the teeny single 2 1/4 cat w/ 2 1/4 intermediate pipe (vs. the 4 bolt and dual 2"s past it) 15.1 @ 90.6 (timing stock BTW) Now sure TPI is worth more peak torque (300 vs. 240 lets's say, a 25% increase AT PEAK), the 2.73 to 3.73 is a 36% increase across the board. The looser converter would also be a huge help, i was limited to 2.2 60's cuz it just bogs. I don't care what GM rated the L69 at, it was a lowball number. Any thinking man would take an L69 f-body over any early carbed fox body, even the 215 hp 85s, and they were lighter to boot.

I guess my point is, if you can explain to me why the SS SHOULD be a slower car than my Z28 w/o refering to the GM HP rating than i won't take this as a personal jealousy attack on your part. Notice i never said they were all that fast. I knew another guy w/ one that did run at/near 16 flat, and another that was somewhere mid 15s. I jst don't think it's fair to say an L69 can't do what i'm saying it can and dismissing it. Otherwise, ummm, nothing. I'll simply dismiss you as close minded. After all, i did see/touch it, i don't need convincing.

[This message has been edited by Ed Maher (edited November 07, 2001).]

 

I just realized after i typed it, thats the only other thing i left out. Me and my friends were timing ******. All of our cars responded to lots o'advance, inclduing his. I'm sure even his stock runs were prolly done w/ way advanced timing.
If you were involved in wasting your time w/ hypercrap chips and their tuning, i reckon you missed the fact that us poor high school kids back east were doing the same thing the old fashioned way.

 

I HOPE where some of our confusion comes from is me getting hung up on "factory stock" and "stock”. I had no problems in “tweaking” a “factory stock” L69 SS whether they ran 15.90 – 16.1 to run in the 15.30 range - in 70’s weather. Cooler weather, little better traction,, a little weight reduction, a light-weight driver, and I could see where 15.00s might be reasonable and still well within what most people would considered “stock”.

I didn’t tune on as many LG4s,, but every one I tuned on responded better to the tweaking than the L69s. One friend’s LG4 “factory stock” Firebird would only run a 16.8,, however with practically the same mods I would do to the L69 SSs the car ran 15.7s (2.77 gears). So, a 15.90 from the factory SS and a 16.80 from the factory Firebird with almost a second difference between the two,,,, both getting near identical mods (you could bump the timing on the LG4 more – differences in chip calibration,, you know that though) would end up running within .4 seconds of each other. So,, no I don’t think the differences in gears, cam, stall, and exhaust is worth nearly what you estimate them to be at this power level. I never tuned on a single LG4 Monte, but it sounds like your GP running 16.50s could use more than a little timing. I never tuned on an automatic 305TPI,, so sure,, what ever you say there. The one factory stock 305TPI with 5 speed ran a high14,, and with mild tweaking ran.at least one 13.99 and a string of 14.0s before the clutch went. So,,,,, they run what they run.

I referenced Hypertech to add 5 more SS’s to the 10 plus I personally tested. As far as their chip goes,, I’ve got an 85 SS and had been talking to them on the phone (early 86 – before they had a chip available to the public) to see if they could change the lock up point on the converter (GM corrected that “problem” in 1986). Mark Heffingham the owner at that time asked if I would participate in their R&D for the chip. I knew they couldn’t do anything to the fuel curve under WOT,, but thought maybe they might do something creative with the timing curve,, and he said they would delay the lock up for me. However, their chip slowed the car down with me having the timing at 10 degrees. Backing the timing down to 6 degrees netted a huge .01 average over three runs over the stock chip at 10 degrees. Indicating they probably did little more than just move the factory curve up a little. It did however delay the lock up as I had requested of them,, that’s the only thing it did over the stock chip. Which by the way was well worth the "waste of time" - LOL

So,, in closing,, NO,,, I don’t think you’re a liar Ed. Like you said,, you know what you saw. However,, I do hope you know that fat guy with the beard in the red suit you see in the malls about this time,, is not really Santa. The real one is at the North Pole making a list and checking it twice.

[This message has been edited by BadSS (edited November 08, 2001).]

 

At least you admit you need help figuring it out. That's half the battle to greater understanding,, too bad you really didn't want an answer.

 

What the hell kind of crack is that, i need help figuring what out. That the only thing different between an 87 L69 and my 92 LB9 is the air/fuel delivery, roller lifters (same cam) and electric fans. And that with worse gears and a worse converter i'm supposed to believe TPI is worth a second over the L69.
You're right, i'm looking for an answer, but not the one you're thinking of. I'm trying to figure out how someone can be as dense as you are in dealing with the facts of the hardware.
You've already said you can accept my numbers, so why try to get in this last poke. Maybe you're just mad cuz every car you touch runs way slower than it does when someone more competent touches it. You're like the motor trend/C&D morons that publish 14 second ETs for LS1 cars. I on the other hand have seen low low 13s from bone stock LS1s, and GMHTP has gotten high 12s w/ ice and decent driving.
See the analogy yet...

 

You know what, i'm closing this as we're beating a dead horse... what we're saying is not that far off from each other, and i don't feel like this turning into a battle of 'i got the last word'. The track i run at is sea level, and yes we let our cars cool between runs, and yes we're talking about average size drivers, not big fat guys. Weight reduction was always limited to pulling out junk from teh trunk that doesn't belong (coolant, oil, detailing supplies, etc), spares and such were left in though.
As such, you seem to believe my times, and i believe you that there are others that did run much slower.
Now can't we all just get along.