Alright...

I have just about HAD IT with this damn car. I have recently replaced the EGR, and just last week, the spark plugs. Also, i have replaced the o2 sensor 4 times as of yesterday. Today, code 44-Lean mixture detected on left side-came up again. The last 2 o2 sensors i had in there was AC DELCO..this time i replaced it with Bosch(lifetime warranty). So that is what happend with the car today. I work at an auto parts store...the guys there said it may be the computer has gone bad. Or that i need to take it up to 4-5k rpm to "blow carbon out". On top of this, the car is still very very hard to get moving when the engine is cold...this problem is intermittent...doesnt always happen. The car stalls, and dies alot, and if i floor it when cold, it does not want to move at all...it shakes violently. Then, as i let off the gas, it starts to slowly pick up speed..when its warmed up, for the most part, it acts fine. Some people have mentioned MAFS...TPS..IAC....and i still have yet to check the cold start valve. To top this all off, on the way home from work tonight, i noticed that my oil guage did NOT move at all.....it seemed to be stuck a few hash marks away from the left side of the guage(forget the number)....didnt move. I dont know.....if someone could tell me why i am running lean(or so it seems) and what the heck to do about my rough idle/start/movement when cold, then i will bounce up and down like a rubber ball down the street...if i can fix the thing already. Please someone help....I am about to drive my car into a propane tank due to too much frustration...

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1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

Could be that the O2 sensor (and all the others) have been doing their job properly, detecting a lean mixture in the exhaust.

A search for "code 44" should yeild all the possibilities.

 

What would cause a lean mixture though? MAFS? Fuel Injectors? I am lost with what the cause would be for this code. Or could it be an electrical/computer problem?

 

mine was caused by a bad fuel pump.

 

long&low...

Did your car have symptoms like mine is having(rough idle, stalling, etc)?

 

yes it did. I had the symptoms for probably 3 months before it ever threw a code.

 

Let me ask this...could you hear like a "whine" comming from the car when it was trying to stay "on" but the idle was fluctuating so low that it wanted to just die out? I hear this "whine" comming from the car when the idle is acting like that...

 

The only thing I ever listened for was the pump to see if maybe I could tell a difference in the pitch of the whine it makes . I can't say that I ever noticed a difference though. I've always heard people say the pump sounds different when it is going bad. reading your post it sounds exactly like what mine was doing, I know thats not what you want to hear. Have the pressure and output checked on that thing.

 

Well, to me, it sounds better than having to replace the MAFS. I'd rather spend 20-30 bucks on a fuel pump and have that solve my problem(hopefully), than spending 190 on a reman MAFS. I really hope that will solve my problems. The earlist i can take it to one mechanic i know would be tuesday...I'll see what he has to say. Thanks alot for your help.

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1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

When you get it fixed let us know what it was.

 

Will do....I am really anxious to find out what it is, because it is driving me up the wall. I just want this ol' 305 to last me till i can get a nice crate engine and work it out for the car.

 

My computer had driveability problems and ack of power due to a bad computer.... was the last thing i would have thought... hope the fuel pump does it for ya

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1988 Pontiac Trans Am GTA L98 5.7L, Black on Black with 114,000kms.
Custom 3" Stainless Exhaust Y-Pipe back (High flow Cat and Flowmaster Mufler)

 

nblanchard,

Yea, i hope its not the computer either....i hope its something like a fuel pump...not too inexpensive....however, when i read the codes, the "12" always comes up for the computer...which means its working properly(or supposed to be). I really hope its not that, or anyhting major....i will have to see tuesday when i dont work. Something tells me its not gonna be that simple


------------------
1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

Alright....finally, i can let everyone know what happend to my car. Well, as said above, my car was going nuts. Two weekends ago, i changed the wires, cap and rotor. When i went to get a distributor cap, the application called for one with "hook" screws....my distributor has REGULAR screws. Odd. Upon further inspection, and changing wire by wire, i also found that whoever owned the car before i did(10+ years ago), put all the wires on the wrong cylinder. For example, the #1 wire was on the #3 cylinder. NONE of them were on the right plug/clyinder. So, someone changed distributors, and also put all the 1986 factory wires on all the wrong plugs. I couldnt believe it!! So the car was running like this for the last 10 years at least. B/c i havent touched the wires till now. Anyway, now that it got a REAL tuneup, the car is running beautifully...feels like a new engine in there altogether. No codes, no heistation. The one problem still remains on a total cold startup in the morning...it hesitates as its idling trying to warm up, and it stalls once or twice...but its not nearly as bad as it was before. Other than that, the car is amazing now...never knew it could run this good. Thanks to everyone that tried to shed some light on this.

------------------
1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

Well.... I'd call that guy upand give him heck... well.. at least it was an easy fix when you figured it out. The cold running problem may be solved by an injector flush.

As for the computer giving a code 12 all the time... my computer still gave a code 12, yet it wasn't workign right. But sounds like you got most of the problems fixed.


Thanx for letting us know... its nice to hear back and know that another F-Body is running up to snuff again

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1988 Pontiac Trans Am GTA L98 5.7L, Black on Black with 114,000kms.

Best ET 14.559 @ 95.25MPH
Custom 3" Stainless Exhaust Y-Pipe back (High flow Cat and Flowmaster Mufler)

 

No problem letting you guys know...I'm just sorry it took so long. I thought it could be that the injectors could use a flush...i'll have to investigate that some more...i'll get to the bottom of what is causing my cold start problems.

Thats interesting how your computer gave you a code 12, and still wasnt working right. I am a fan of fuel injection, but i still hate that bugs like that exist.

But that definetly blew my mind...that someone was that dumb or uncaring to mess up all the wires ...i cant believe i dont have more serious problems as a result(crossing fingers and knocking on wood).
------------------
1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

[This message has been edited by PhantomTPI (edited November 21, 2001).]

 

Your problem with cold start idling could be a number of things. First you should check that your IAC is working properly and your TPS has the proper voltage readings. Also it could be your cold start injector or the cold start injector switch. During open loop operation (when cold) the ECM sends a signal to the cold start switch (located on the front of the manifold) and the switch turns the cold start injector on...the cold start injector gives the engine an additional spray of fuel which is distributed equally to all the cylinders through passages in the intake... once the ECM goes into closed loop the cold start switch is turned off.

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1986 Trans AM
355 TPI
4 Wheel Disc Brakes
9 bolt Borg Warner Rear (2.77's....oh joy) :P
6" rods, approx. 9.7:1 Compression, Stock TPI (soon to be ported), 24#/hr LTI injectors (cleaned and flowmatched by Cruizin Performance), Hedman Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust with 80 series flowmaster, SBC 993 heads completely redone and modified for 1.6 RR, 1.52 RR (for now), Comp Cams XE262-14 TPI Cam, Holley AFPR, TPIS airfoil, MSD wires, MSD 6-AL Ignition, Hypertech 53,000 volt coil.

Track times to come.

 

My experience was my MAF was/is shot (still running it cause I haven't had a chance to head down south to pick up a Wells yet) but when I hit the sniffer for emissions I barely passed the second time, and it should lots of NOx, which is lean so mine was maf, but damn are they expensive compared to other parts ..... hope it's not your maf.

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1989 Trans Am GTA, Gutted air box, K&N, Koni Sports

 

Actually lots of NOx showing up can be the EGR valve system as well. The EGR valve helps to recirculate a small amount of exhaust back into the combustion chamber. This lowers comubstion temperatures and reduces the amount of NOx in the exhuast. Check it out.

A bad EGR valve or EGR vaccuum solenoid can cause bad cold idle problem as well.

[This message has been edited by 86TpiTransAm (edited November 22, 2001).]

 

That is a wierd one but, at least it was easier to fix than changing the pump.

 

Sorry for my long absence...had to take a 5-day trip away from all the madness. Anyways, 86TPITRANSAM, while i was doing the wires, cap and rotor, i also went ahead and changed the IAC to a new unit. I forgot to mention that...so that didnt solve the problem...but i figued i might as well leave it in the car, since it could go at anytime as well. The TPS is something i still have to investigate further, but as far as i am concerned, its working properly. I dont have a voltimeter to test it, but i am sure i can get my hands on one. The other things i was looking at was in fact, the cold start valve/switch. That is what i think i will tackle next, if the TPS turns out to be fine. The MAF is something that i will leave for last, since its the most expensive to replace. The EGR valve, i had replaced when i got a code 32 for it....i relaced it with a Delco part, and that code never came back.

------------------
1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

I know you say you replaced the EGR valve but you didn't mention anything about the EGR vaccuum solenoid. It's not likely that it's bad and not throwing the code but it wouldn't hurt to check that as well. If you can get your hands on a Haynes manual it describes the process in there. I don't know if mine was bad or not but I just went ahead and replaced it during the engine swap. It was only a $25 part.

------------------
1986 Trans AM
355 TPI
4 Wheel Disc Brakes
9 bolt Borg Warner Rear (2.77's....oh joy) :P
6" rods, approx. 9.7:1 Compression, Stock TPI (soon to be ported), 24#/hr LTI injectors (cleaned and flowmatched by Cruizin Performance), Hedman Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust with 80 series flowmaster, SBC 993 heads completely redone and modified for 1.6 RR, 1.52 RR (for now), Comp Cams XE262-14 TPI Cam, Holley AFPR, TPIS airfoil, MSD wires, MSD 6-AL Ignition, Hypertech 53,000 volt coil.

Track times to come.

 

You can easily test an EGR valve with a vacuum pump. The egr valve should open and close smoothly accordingly with how much vacuum is beeing applied.

------------------
Red '87Formula Firebird
-mostly stock 5.0L LG4 w/cowl induction setup borrowed from '83 TA and T5 tranny.

My newest Ride:

'85 Silver L98 Corvette w/4+3 manual tranny. not bad for $3500.

 

86TPITRANSAM...

You're right ...i didnt check/replace the EGR vacumn selenoid....I just replaced the EGR itself(and what a pain in the @$$ it was too)....but eventually, it wouldnt hurt to replace that as well. I dont however think that would be the cause for my cold start/idling problem.

------------------
1986 WS6-Equipped 5.0 TPI Trans Am
180 Degree Thermo
Manual Fan Switch
Random Tech High-Flow Cat
Two Chamber Flowmaster Muffler
Megs Custom 4.5" Stainless Steel Rolled Tips
1999 Grand Am GT In-Dash CD Player w/Equalizer(fits like '86 original)
5% Tint On Rear, 35% On Sides

OTHER RIDE:
1998 C5 6Spd. Corvette Coupe
Silver w/Gray Leather Int.
12/14 Options
Stock(for now)
Best 1/4th: 13.5 @ 104.4MPH

 

did the tach jump up and down and did the car jump when it acted up like that?

 

another thing to look at is your temp sensor. it could be telling your comp that the engine is warm when it really isnt, therefore it runs like total ***** until it is actually warmed up. sorry if someone mentioned this already, i did read the entire post but much of it slipped my mind already cause im just so damn tired...good luck

rob

 

To bring everything up to date...here is the latest...

For 10+ years, the car has run one the original factrory spark plug wires, with ALL of the wires on the wrong clyinders...#1 wire on #3 cylinder, and #3 wire, on #6 cylinder and so forth...i compared notes with a Ford owner(shhh....just a guy at work) and he said it looks like some dumb@$$ thought that if he switched the firing order around(like you can on some Ford motors to get more torque), he would get more torque out of this engine. Well, thats NOT THE CASE!! Anyway, after everything was changed, and done P R O P E R L Y.....the car runs awesome...it solved 99% of my engine problems...car runs like brand new....new wires, plugs, rotor and cap(which by the way, rotor and cap were completely new also, b/c someone changed distributors). I still have that problem with the cold starting though....likes to stall and sputter a bit when just started cold...after it warms up a bit, its fine. The tach goes up and down gradually...it does not jump eradically...goes from about 1,000RPM to 2300RPM, then makes its way down again....it does this several times before that stops, and it seems like it idles at a constant speed. I have NO idea what that could be.

 

Hi guys!

I read the tread 3 or more times and can´t believe an engine runs with all wires on the false cylinder like PhantomTPI mentioned. I believe if you say PhantomTPI but I can´t understand that engine runs and it´s possilbe to drive it for 10 years.

Is it true that you can change the firing order on some Ford engines to got more torque and how to understand that?

Or did the wires simply have numbers on it so the #1 wire was the connection between dist. #3 terminal to plug #3.

My understanding is broken in two halfes.
Please would anybody explain to me so I can restore it?

Many thanks guys
Rosi / Germany

 

Rosi...

I kid you not...that car was in my family for 10 years before it was mine....everytime it needed work, me and my father worked on it...I know for a fact that those wires were never changed, b/c we never had that done on the car, and if we would have thought of it, we would have done it ourselves. But yea, to answer your question, i was told numerous times by people who know chevy small block motors that you CAN do that and the engine WILL run with a completely different firing order...but it will run like crap....and thats exactly what happend with my Trans Am. Now she runs great.

I heard about the firing order on some Ford engines...to produce more torque...however, I have never owned a ford, nor will I, so I cant verify this compeltely.

 

I didn´t like to own a Ford too but to understand what happened maybe there are other guys that can explain

 

The early 302's and 351's (windsors) had different firing orders but I cant tell you why. Now in the 80's (I think), Ford started casting there blocks with less metal (light weight castings). The 302 had the 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order and the 351 had the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order still. When they started building 302's for heavy duty (H.O. and police) they found that the #1 and the #2 main webs were cracking due to the fact that the first 2 cylinders were firing back to back and over stressing the 2 front main webs (remember the layout of Fords... the driver side cylinders are 5-6-7-8 amd the passenger side cylinders are 1-2-3-4).

This is the way it was explained to me. For all I know it may be .

Oh. I hate to admit this but I was was a Ford boy until 1986. Chevy's ever since. Strange, since everybody I hung with had Chevys. My family included!

 

Yes, the 302 HO cars shared the 351 firing order. This was not as simple as just changing the wire positions, it requires a different cam.
As for changing the firing order on a SBC. Well, you might get lucky and it might kinda run, BUT there couldn't possibly be ANY logical reason to even TRY that. Firing order is determined by the cam, each cylinder fires after the intake valve has opened/closed, and before the exhaust opens/closes. The distributor is directly meshed w/ the cam, thus #1 wire position corresponds to the #1 firing position on the cam. You can't change the firing order w/o changing the cam. period.

In a way i'm glad this post came to the surface. It clearly illustrates that there is a right way and a wrong way to troubleshoot problems. If you're driving a car that hasn't seen a tune-up in over 10 years, nor has the firing order even been verified, why would you start replacing or even thinking about replaceing computer sensors is beyond me.
If you keep your car in good running order it makes it much easier to find the cause of your problems (or even keeps you from having problems at all)