Hi!
Short question.
Was the 1989 trans am whith t-tops awaylible whit a 350 or was it just the 305?

 

From what I've read, it was available for cars being exported outside of the USA.

 

Not sure but I think that you could but only in 89 , my gta is a 350 t top car with the dual catalytic converters.

 

It was available anywhere in 1989.

 

Thanks!
Any other year?

 

Once the 350 became available, (don't remember which year 1988 or 1989 I think) it was available in everything except convertibles, but with auto trans only, no stick shift. It would have been available all the way to the end of production in 1992.

 

In about November or December 1988 I was shopping for my 1989 GTA. I wanted to factory order it so I could get just what I wanted. I approached several GM dealerships in the greater Vancouver area. I was told at that time you absolutely could not order a Trans Am or GTA with T-tops or a 5 speed manual transmission with a 350 engine. I really wanted T-tops and preferred a 5-speed manual transmission so I took the 305 engine with the T-tops and the manual transmission. I have read, I think over on the GTA Source Page, that in response to consumer demand GM later started offering T-Tops with the 350 engine. However, they would still not let you have the 5 speed transmission.

 

Yes here we go see this link.

http://www.gtasourcepage.com/cdbsection.html

On August 29, 1989 GM cancelled production of the 350 engine with T-Tops on the Firebird, Trans Am and GTA models. It does not look like they ever brought it back.

I know I have read somewhere that for a very short time in 1989 you could get T-Tops on a 350 engine due to consume demand.

 

This link talks about T-tops and 350 engines in the GTA’s

http://www.gtasourcepage.com/GTAFAQ.html

This article talks about the only Formulas got T-Tops in 1991

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Firebird


This article talks about L98 and T-tops in 1989

http://www.transamworld.com/fbird-history-php3.php

 

89 was not a limited year for t-top and 350. Your dealer story is typical of a dealer that didnt know any better. My dad has a Nov 88 production GTA with the 350 and t-tops. The entire year it was readily available, and there are plenty of 89's out there to show that.

 

Correct. L98's and T-Tops became mutually exclusive save for a few Formulas with the Crosslace wheel option, (I'll never understand that one), when they became SD's.

 

Another interesting article on this subject.

“Interestingly 1989 was the First year a US Dealership could order T-top and a 350 Engine in a firebird.”

See Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-g...ntiac_Firebird

This indicates GM treated US and other country dealerships differently on this issue before 1989.

I know I have read somewhere that due to consumer demand GM began offering T-tops on 350 engines. If I come across it I will update the post.

Either, way they canceled this option in August of that year. I suspect that must have been near the end of taking orders for 1989.

There is a 1989 350 T-Top GTA in my city.

 

I found another quote on this subject to pass along.

"Although technically available, orders for T-top hatch roofs were discouraged on Firebirds with the 5.7 - liter V-8 due to problems with body flexing." Pg 127

See: Original Pontiac Firebird and Trans Am 1967-2002 The Restorer's Guide by Jim Schild, Publisher Motorbooks Internations

I think I know where I saw that quote about consumer demand. Once I find it I will pass it along.

 

Unfortunately, the tech info from this site and the multiple sites it spawned to, along with wikipedia, are terrible sources for backup information. Even the printed books have errors. 1989 was the one year that GTA's having t-tops was extremely common, because it was readily available by checking the right boxes on the order forms.

"Although technically available, orders for T-top hatch roofs were discouraged on Firebirds with the 5.7 - liter V-8 due to problems with body flexing." Pg 127

As far as that quote, I'm more likely to buy into the excess weight theory regarding option availability than that one. I wouldnt even accept it if an engineer from GM told me that. The M5 305 TPI engines were real close in power to the 350 (especially depending on year) and those were available in cars with no roof whatsoever so if body flex really was an issue I'd imagine there wouldnt be convertibles, or at least none with V8 engines. Take this as an example, an option readily available and not "discouraged" with t-tops
89 IROC-Z M5 LB9 V8 9.3:1 5.0 (305) 230@4600 300@3200 TPI
vs
89 Trans Am A4 L98 V8 9.3:1 5.7 (350) 230@4400 330@3200 TPI

or vs
89 (TTA) A4 LC2 V6 8.0:1 3.8 (231) 250@4400 340@2800 SFI
Also readily available with t-tops.

Its possible that in 1988 someone at GM and/or Pontiac decided no GTA's with a 350 and T-tops for that reason, but its certainly not a good reason nor did they stick with it.

Here is data from the GTA source page (a source I trust more than any of the above) on the 1989 GTA's
CC1 -- Roof Panels, Hatch (Removable) -- 6,820
LC2 -- Engine, 3.8L V6 Turbocharged -- 1,550 (1555)
LB9 -- Engine, 5.0L V8 TPI -- 366
L98 -- Engine, 5.7L V8 TPI -- 6,554

Subtracting out the known TTA t-top cars (24+15 hardtops) and assume all the 5.0's were t-top (unlikely, but hey why not) you are left with 4,938 with the 350 and T-top. Finding one would be kind of like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Interesting statistics on the GTA’s. We of course have no way of knowing if they are indicative of the total firebird production line which was much larger in the 100,000’s of cars. The GTA was the top model of the firebirds and Pontiac Motor Division’s (PMD) flagship sports car.

When conducting research it is accepted to first rely literature reviews of published material due the process one must go through to get it published. Drafts are reviewed by editors, facts are checked and the reputation of the author is considered before he/she even gets published. Then there is a ranking of the publishing houses some publishers have more prestige than others. Then you look to see what printing the publication is in. It is more likely there may be an error in the first printing rather than the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. You look to see if statements are carried through the in subsequent printings. Then if a statement is carried through to other books by other publishing houses you can give more weight to it as it has been checked by other editors and other fact checkers. Finally you contact the author or the publishing house and ask them where they got that statement. At least this is how research is conducted in academia or in law or other professions.

All that being said does that mean an error absolutely, positively never occurs in published material. Well of courses not. It just means there is a ranking of what is generally considered more reliable than elsewhere.

The internet is still not a great source of reliable information, depending on the site. Sites with statistics or statements from governments, universities, reputable companies, etc. are considered more reliable than some individual who does not have to stand behind what they are saying and did not have to have his/her work checked before it is posted. Interesting that some professors I know are starting to cite wikapedia; however, I would still rank it below a published book or a published encyclopaedia

That being said I give some weight to the Trans Am GTA Source Page and the Thirdgen web pages as they are starting to gain some weight in their subject matter. However, researchers would still consider them below published books in trust worthiness. No one is holding them to account for what is said other than the court of public opinion. You do not know the reliability of people putting information or posting on these sites.

Then you can consider personal statements by individuals. Anecdotal statements are fine and can be valuable; however, the source making them is important. In this situation if someone made a statement about firebirds or GTA’s and they worked at GM’s research and development department (and they can prove it) in the 80’s or 90’s I would give what they are saying more weight than what somebody posts somewhere on the internet. That is one thing I like about the GTA’s Source Page, Frankie has tracked down people who were working at PMD at that time and has gotten old memo’s on Pontiac letter head. Then you can give some weight to what is being presented.

My story about my car shopping experiences in late 1988 were just what I experienced at the time. Maybe I came across 3 or 4 junior salesman or maybe they were following what they were told about generally not putting T-Tops in cars with 350’s. It does tend to fit with what one published quo has to say. Does that make it conclusive? Well of course not.

Out of this all the one document I place the most trust in is the one with PMD letter head stating to discontinue production of T-Tops in 350’s. All we can say for sure with any degree of certainty is that GM began to permit Firebirds with T-Tops to have 350’s in the 1989 models but reversed that position in August 1989. How many…, a majority, or a minority, or some, or some with a certain type of wheels is pure speculation until more hard evidence or trust worthy facts occurs.

That is all I am saying at this point until someone can provide proof to the contrary which I have not seen yet.

Oh yea and sorry for the rambling.

 

Would it be a stupid idea to take a 305ci, 5-speed, t-top car and swap in a 350ci? How much extra work would be needed for safety of the frame flexing? frame strengtheners maybe, just wondering if anyone has done it, and opinions of whether it would be worth it or not, would it decrease value? what would be the chances of frame bending/twisting etc, i have not done it but am just curious about it

 

Considering there were 350's with t-tops from the factory, I don't think you need to worry. If done cleanly, the swap might make it easier to re-sell the car.

 

Yes, but im talking about, 350, t-top, and 5 speed.

 

Right on!!!!!
I have one of 4938!!!! Awsome!!!
It's making 330+Rwhp & 350 Ft/Lbs....

No cracks yet!!!

 

Only need to worry about that 5 speed.

 

Obviously you liked my avatar!

TA

 

I got lost on what type of proof you are looking for. The reason for 91/92 Formulas with cross lace rims and 350 being available with t-tops is weight. This was confirmed by a PMD VP.

87-88 you could get a 350 w/ t-tops on the Trans Am/GTAs. It was most common on export cars. Canada had a lot less strict emissions requirements. This is also why you could still get carbed motors in Canada much later then the US. With 1990 came the air bag system which I believe took the weight over the top for CAFE standards (it was literally that small of a margin at that time).

Read this thread for all the info on 350s and t-tops:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...0-pontiac.html

 

"This was confirmed by a PMD VP."

Please indicate who the PMD Vice President is and please provide his quote regarding cross lace rims (diamond spoke) affecting the availbility of T-Tops with 350 engines.

 

[QUOTE=AmorgetRS;41545500 Canada had a lot less strict emissions requirements. [/QUOTE]

My car had only one catalytic converter originally.... Which has long been missing

 

And I still dont buy it. The Formula by nature was already light, and someone please tell me what the weight difference is in a 305 and 350 engine block? And then there's the GTA that is a fully loaded car and supposedly weight is a huge concern with mandatory crosslace rims... well, really? Ok, why are the GTA seats so obtrusively heavy then? The other seats are lighter not to mention there's no reason they could not have made the GTA seats a lot lighter. Its just something that sure he said it, but I am not buying it.

 

The final last year for the 350 and t-tops was 1990. Alot of people think that it was 89 which is relatively true...but if you knew someone back in the day or really wanted t-tops and the 350 some places did this. I have t-tops in my 1990 GTA but they are the aftermarket C&C t-tops...don't matter to me though that there aftermarket I still love them.

 

I have now read the following articles “Trans Am GTA Development” from the Trans Am GTA Source Page and the two threads entitled “T-tops and 350… And the Pontiac Firebird convertibles” and “For the “GTA-ers” here…”. In fact I read them three times.

If you were referring to Lou Wassel he indicates he was a Marketing Manager at GM (the article does not state which division of GM), which is quite a difference from a Vice President.

This is exactly what Lou indicated.

“One of the problems we had back then was the EPA Gas Guzzler designation. A fully loaded Trans Am with 16" N96 wheels was over the weight limit, and would incur a Gas Guzzler penalty. Fortunately, we had the lightweight -lace wheels that allowed us to meet the target. Concurrent with that change, we also re-tuned the WS6 suspension to eliminate the rock-hard ride.... while still maintaining tight handling.”

and

John, I got an email from Lou Wassel today and this is what he had to say about the decision to not offer T-tops on the 5.7 cars: - Frankie Rider

"It was strictly a matter of 'gas guzzler' certification (sic) because of the added weight. Nothing more. Not sure how the ones you're describing got built."

The first quo from Lou is discussing the GTA and Trans Am and refers to reducing the weight of these vehicles with diamond spoke wheels to avoid an EPA Gas Guzzler designation. Any interpretation of this with regards to T-Tops and 350 engines is pure speculation and it isn’t what Lou was talking about.

Next Lou tells Frankie the reason T-Tops and 350 were not offered was because of the extra weight (presumably from the T–Tops but the statement is unclear about that). Again no reference is made to diamond spoke wheels. We also do not know if Lou is referring to Firebirds, Formulas, Trans Ams, GTAs or all of these. However, we do know that his opinion on T-Tops and 350 engines was that he does not know how these ones got built. We do not know if he is referring to the 1987/88 years or the1989 year or any other year. Either way a Marketing Manager from GM in the late 1980’s casts doubt about T-Tops and 350 engines on some or all of the Firebird models. I suspect Lou is talking about the 1987/88 years but that is just speculation on my part. What the heck speculation is rampant around here!

So in summary nothing Lou said relates to T–Tops and 350 engines and the use of diamond spoke wheels. All Lou was saying was that to get the weight of Trans Ams and GTA’s below some threshold (to avoid an EPA Gas Guzzler designation) GM installed lighter weight wheels on these two models of the Firebird line.

We do know that the base Firebird and Formula models were lighter than the Trans Am and GTA models. Consequently, the need to lighten the Firebird and Formula models with lighter wheels to permit T-Tops and 350 engines does not make sense. Indeed, I have in my possession a GM promotional broacher from 1989, which indicates the diamond spoke wheels were a standard options for the GTAs, an available option for the Trans Ams and were not available for Firebirds and Formulas. I would be happy to photocopy the relevant sections of this broacher and mail it to anyone who provides me with their mailing address.

Therefore, the speculation about T-Tops and 350 engines and diamond spoke wheels could only relate to Trans Ams and GTAs. However, there is no proof it even applies to these models unless you twist Lou’s statement to make it apply and that is not what Lou was talking about. I think we have ended this myth unless some other hard evidence comes to light.

The next issue is of T-Tops and 350 engines. Everyone agrees that they existed in 1989. I have seen a one such equipped GTA in my city and I just saw an IROC so equipped this morning. However, I do not think it was a well know option or one that GM pushed and evidence exists that PMD put an end to that option in August 1989 and a quo from a book indicates GM discouraged this option.

OKFOZ in his speculation on T-Tops and 350 engines and diamond spoke wheels mentions 1030 Formulas with T-Tops and 350 engines out of 9126 Formulas made in the 1989 year. That is only 11% of the Formulas, which is not quite opening the flood gates and making tons of them as OKFOZ indicates. Also, I do not know where he got those numbers from as he did not cite his source.

Finally, the speculation about T-Tops and 350 engines and exporting these cars to Canada because of lower environmental regulations in 1987/88 or 1989 or any other year for that matter has not been proven. No one has provided one iota of evidence in the form of USA, Canadian or GM documents; an opinion from GM employees or from USA or Canadian environmental regulatory employees, published books or anything else to substantiate this speculation. This too I think is a myth unless some new evidence comes to light.

 

I did do the swap you were asking about, I swapped the old clcc 305 to a 350 HO crate motor in my 83 using the original 5 speed and disc brake rear end.

that was around Aug. of 2002 never had any problems, until someone turned left in front of me 2 years ago. (r.i.p)

 

The lack of good information is overwhelming... some of you got it right
Were talking FIREBIRDS here so let you Camaro guys not get over involved at this point.
1) The Trans Am, GTA and Formula in 1987 & 1988 were NA with T-tops and a 350 in the Good ole USA. You could get one in Canada and then import it back into the US.
2) In 1989 you could get anything with T-tops and a 350, Formula's, GTA's Trans AM's Camaros... Whatever... Jump ahead to 1991 & 1992 ONLY the formula was available with T-tops and a 350, as mentioned before it was due to the weight of the car will be explained in section 4
3) The reason has NOTHING TO DO WITH BODY FLEX... even in the Convertible it has nothing to do with body flex. The problem has to do with the fact that T-tops increased the weight of the car, just like convertiblizing a car increases the weight...
4) You could get a Convertible with a 350, and there are no problems with body flex and over torque. You had to have ASC make it for you, not GM, it came down to the fact that the fuel economy of the car would dip below the magic number of 22.5 Mpg average... Once that happened the car was assessed a "Gas guzzler" charge of about $1500 or $1200 I forget the exact amount. GM was VERY careful not to cross the line. In fact they were so careful that you could not get a GTA with the 350 in 1987 with the rear shade or T-tops or the sub woofer system as an example...

Check out my Formula 350 Convertible

John

 

Of course not, The facts are these:
1) The 350 gets slightly worse Gas mileage than the 305, it is well documented that the 350 gets about 25 Mpg highway where the 305 gets 26. Depending on year it varies but they all hovered around that area.
2) T-top cars weigh MORE than hard top cars, About 30#..

Here you go off the deep end. The FACT is the 350 and T-tops on the FORMULA in 1991 & 1992 was ONLY available with the Black cross laced wheels... Your 1989 Brochure has nothing to do with 1991 & 1992. How could it, they change things EVERY year...

Books are very wrong when it comes to third Gens... Heck there is more speculation in 99% of the books out there than there is anywhere. I have yet to find a reliable Book source for third gens... Even the Camaro white book which is often considered scripture is wrong in many places...

I have seen far more 350 cars from 1989 that HAD T-tops than not. It was Very common and honestly very popular. Even all things considered about half of the 3rd gens out there have T-tops, just because not every car had them does not mean that it was not desirable nor wanted.

The 1030 number was a number that was given to me by another owner at a car show... ALSO it has NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to do with Cross laced wheels. Those were not available on the Formula until 1991...

The 1030 numbers is by no means factual until I can verify it..


What do you mean myth??? Find me a US bound Firebird from 1987 or 1988 that has T-tops and a 350... I have never seen one... they may exist by some twist of fate, but I do not think there are many if any that are truly original... I went to ONE SHOW and found TWO L98/T-top/GTA's BOTH were originally from Canada... Ultimately two cars mean nothing, but it does indicate something when the US dealer Order worksheets indicate that the combination of T-tops and a 350 was not available in 1987 & 1988, and all of the 1987 & 1988 L98-T-top cars that I have seen were from Canada, more than two mind you that I have found. Matter of fact every time one comes up I ask the same question about the drivers door decal and if it says it complies with US or Canadian standards.... All of them come back with Canadian so far.

I still wait for someone to come up with a well documented 1987 or 1988 that shows CC1 and L98 on a GTA, Formula or Trans Am that was intended for the US...

Plenty of 1987 Camaros out there BTW

John