We had our SoCalTPI dyno session today & crowned a new "King of the Hill"

Adrian Topteam54 put down 393/414 RWHP & TQ.

It is a 355 Super Ram 6 spd.
Comp 280 XFI w/ 1.6 rockers
Trickflow heads ported (266/210)
Welded and ported Edelbrock base by Dr. J
30# injectors
Dyno Don shorty headers
Dual cats 3" catback exhaust w/ Magnaflow muffler

Congrats! Adrian.....

 

wow thats amazing what you guys are doing down there

 

are those numbers the flow numbers ?

 

Do you mean on the Trickflow heads?

266 intake flow. @.550
210 exhaust flow. @.550

 

Congratulations Adrian. Those are impressive numbers and I got to witness the event. By the way the new intake manifold will be in my hands tomorrow.

 

yeah i did thanks those flow almost like the afr 180's

 

Was the superram ported at all?

 

No, just the base, the rest was out of the box. (except for the outside "polished")
And a 58mm TB.

 

Wow, impressive. Do you think it would have had a noticeable gain had the runners and plenum were ported?

 

Definately, we have done others that were ported, similar #'s.

A 406 w/ super ram put down 385/435
After porting the runners and plenum....403/439
I know the comparison doesn't look that good but the 406 had a bad exhaust system. (3" single cat)
No telling what it might have done if it had a good system like this one had.

 

Hey Don, looks great. You didn't mention the cam spec. Where does this thing fall off? I'm thinking with the right cam about 5800-6000, I'm interested where it happens.

 

OH geeze, I can't help it.

1. it's not all about flow
2. AFR is not the standard all other heads are judged

Sorry Don....didn't mean to hijack.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
All that and dealing with the California smog laws (in whatever way) is truly impressive.

 

Quick question.
Which Magnaflow muffler? PN?

 

It's special, I do it like the 6 cyl. setup. 15693 but I use the 12288 muffler.

It is 3" all the way thru then exits in 2 2 1/2" outlets.

 

We have another car w/ AFR's ...stock block 350 XFI 280 Auto 397/ 360 RWHP &TQ
Ported Stealth Ram ...I'm sorry, but it is all about flow.

Comp XFI 280
Yes, around 5700-5800
It could use a little more flow thru the runners. (they are out of the box)

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. The experts say differently.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-question.html

Post 13 and 19. John Kasse an Reher-morrison tend to disagree, as does Curtis Boggs, Chad Spier, Darrin Morgan and a number of head design engineers I have personally sat with. RM took 30 CFM out and picked up power, how does that happen?

As to the above, different engine, different combination, different intake, different results. A ported Stealth Ram compared to a stock Super Ram? Anecdotal evidence. It's illegal in advertising for a reason.

Four HP is well within the margin of error on any given day given the Temp/humidity/ timing, could be a lot of variables. 4HP at the end of the day doesn't matter as the combinations are different. And where is the 4 HP? at 2000 RPM? so what. And I wll point out it's sinificantly less torque. So I think the torque is better. ( I don't I'm just giving an example of how an argument can be made any way you want depending on the product you want to support)

The blanket statement doesn't really support much, and there isn't enough information to draw any conclusions.

 

Geez u sure do like give leasons .
I said afr 180's because that is what I have for my sbc. Always got something to say about afr. U don't always have to prove people wrong in every post . Obviously they have an understAnding about what's going on they make impressive power and still smog legal. Sorry back to topic .

 

Also that Stealth Ram with the 280XFI 350cu peeked 397@6300 and peek tq 360@4900-5100.

This car with a Super Ram 280XFI 355cu made 394@5750 and TQ 414@4750 with a ported base that flows 317cfms. I've seen 383's make the same power or less in TGO. Now flow numbers does make a difference but its how it's being used.

I have the same combo except my manifold flows 290 and the SR runners are siemesed but it peeked 383@5950-6000 with the best overall TQ of 395@4900. So air flow is the key but where it's needed. Oh yea by the way, This is California numbers and passing smog with them.

Our goal is to break the 400hp mark without buying more parts and keeping it smog legal.

I still don't know why some people are using LT Headers and not making near this much power.

 

Nice job Dyno Don!!
Adrian-- your face froze with a permanent smile?? LOL!!

By chance, any vids of any of the runs??

 

You know what, we post the things we do to share with others.
We show and tell how we do it (with flow #'s) if you want to hear it ....don't read it.

By the way, we are not impressed with name droppers.
What those people do is like another world.

Rant over.......

 

"We'll have to agree to disagree. The experts say differently"

Fine with me. We will just continue on in our own little world out here. By the way stay tuned for a long tube runner setup that should be ready early next year.

 

Do you guys feel with some AFR 195 eliminators and maybe a 3.5" catback you would be able to go past the 400 mark?

Nice numbers btw would love to see what she would do at the track.

 

Wasn't name dropping, making the point of what experts are saying. In other words, don't take my work for it, take theirs. That information is far more worthwhile than magazine articles.

It's not another world, the physics applies regardless of the application it's just a question of how you manage the physics. They're professionals, so I look to them. If I want to see how to play short stop, I watch Jeter, not a little league player.

Anyway, I agree, good to share with others and stir conversation, which is all I'm doing.

Why do you limit your discussions about "how you do it" to flow numbers" Seems there's more to it than that.

I'm just sayin let's pass around good information. How many people are trying to learn and get all caught up in flow numbers and build pigs as a result, I've seen it time after time.

I'm sure a conversation of how you got your results would be far more interesting if you talk about how it addressed the customer's needs and how you got to where you did rather than this flow number equals that much power.

Oh, and btw, that 58MM TB is a waste of time. I've seen too big a TB cost HP when not put together right. GM is putting their 48MM TB on 550 HP cars, and it's supporting it.

 

I'm at the edge of my seat.

 

This is true if you are selling something. It is all about flow then; gotta make the costumer feel educated and that it was their choice. But if you are racing flow is only part of the story.

If this was true why don't we all go with 240cc heads that flow 350cfm? It's all about flow right?

Nice build here and I do want to say I like what you guys are doing trying to get guys to build outside the TPI box. But you are $tarting to $ound like $omeone el$e I know.

 

Yep.

Anyway, here's a thought...and again, just stirring conversation...

If I got the biggest flowing intake and heads of a given runner size and bolted them up to a SBC of any size, is it at all possible that I can build a pig?

Answer: yes.....so I have to assume there's more to it than that.

If it were that simple, we wouldn't need engineers.

 

Well in the name of "stirring conversation" do you guys have any high HP smog legal TPI type SBC combo's you would like to share or do you want to talk about flow numbers and bogus theoretical engines all day?

 

I don't think sitting around talking bout dyno numbers is a conversation, I call it a circle jerk. WHY? Because dyno numbers vary so greatly from one to the other, and really have no bearing on how fast a car is going to be.

My point of flow numbers is that it appears all the credit to this engine is based on flow numbers as shown in the original post. I don't subscribe to that theory. This engine made XX power because we had XX flow. That was the basis of the thread started. NOW, if the point about all this flow was that another similar engine made less power and had less flow, well OK then.

I also don't like to discuss "imaginations". For example, comments like "can you imagine if we....." whatever. Again, falls into my category of a circle jerk. I've seen people imagine 200 more horsepower into an engine. I see manufacturers do it, I see wanna bees do it, my little world has no room for imagination. However, I would care discuss the effects of loosening up the exhaust and WHY it will help, and make predictions on that based on science and know how, that's my idea of fun, but I'm weird that way.

Here's a good example. I have more interest in the guy who designs the cam and why, rather than the guy who picks it off the shelf and sticks it in the motor. I was hoping to have some discussions about how all these parts worked well together to get the results, but everyone wants to say it's all about flow numbers, which, is wrong, but ok, no need to beat that horse.

I had a conversation with my 13 year old nephew on Thanksgiving. He wants a set of drums. He was rattling off Pearl, Yamaha, Tama....then into cymbals and that he had to have Zyldjn, beucase the Sabian weren't good enough for him. Mind you he doesn't play at all. He needed the cool stuff.

So I asked....."why do you think you need a $2000 set"...and he started giving me all this anecdotal stories about this guy and that guy..someone he knew...etc... Never once did he address hardware, materials, tone quality, or durability.

Sometimes, I feel like forums, ALL FORUMS, are conversations my 13 year old nephew.

 

Sounds like a fun day on the dyno.

Other things I would like to see about your pulls would be BSFC & CFM as well as HC & o2 readings, that would give us a lot more to talk about.

 

I have no problem with AFR, they are a good product.

It's not that I'm trying to prove anyone wrong, I am looking to learn. How's that? There is always something to learn, and I try to learn from everyone every day.

I put my thoughts, opinions out for all to see, I don't hide and just pop up when it's time to sell something. I engage. And there are people who have a thing or two to teach me I'm sure. Would it be better if I just came out from time to time sent some PMs and said "buy my crap"..... I'm looking to have conversations like adults and keep feelings out of it.

However, when there is something I know, and someone tries to tell me 2+2=5. I have to ask how they came up with 5. Maybe it is 5 and I'm the idiot, but I know it to be 4. But until they can disprove it's 5, I'll keep asking.

AND, finally, if there is one part of a car that I have studied, sat with experts, met with companies, engineers, and designers, that I probably know more about than anything else, it's heads and fuel delivery. and,YES, it does skewer a lot of garbage that passes as information out there.

You don't see me commenting on cams, I recommended talking to the experts. I say nothing as to ring tension or cyl wall finish. I keep my comments where I understand and have studied with the best people in the industry. I'm sorry if it hurts someone's feelings.

 

Sometimes I feel like you are wearing out your welcome on these forums.
What with all your negativity, why can't you just except it for what it is?

The flow comment was a jab in your side, what it was refering to was the flow of the intake system, because I know how to like to take your shots against AFR.

 

thanks don for posting some results, some of us really appreciate you taking the time to share your results. did you have any long tube runner cars dyno? im hoping to get my car to dyno in next couple weeks for my base line then ill make my changes.

 

You know what, I just got a PM from someone that kinda clears it up. You guys are just doing TPI engines. Is that right?? JUST TPI.

If that's the case, I was coming from the wrong perspective and now I better understand your comments on flow.

If what you are trying to demonstrate is that a TPI can make a level of power that is out of the ordinary. Then that is a different issue, I didn't know the back story. And explains why you're talking flow.

As far as the negativity goes, I don't see it that way. An intelligent answer is all I ask, not snide remarks. You really can have a civil conversation with me if you just simply drop the defensive posture. No need for it. YOU just admitted right here in what I quoted, YOU JABBED ME, and I'm the bad guy? In your first post nothing but name dropping and you lecture ME on it? IDK, maybe I live in a bizarro world.

As far as the AFR goes, again they make a good product, for at least the second time in this thread. I just don't think they are THE standard by which all other should be based. IN FACT I find them grossly over rated. Now why do you think it's your job to prove me wrong? Why? Do you have stock in the company or something? You're not going to be my friend because I don't drink AFR Kool Aid? Do you see how silly that is?

Oh, btw, I'd put 36s in that engine, I think 30s are too small. What's your AFR in the mid range under acceleration and duty cycle? You've got to be 450 at the crank.

 

Circle jerks and 13 year old nephew's was definitely not what people want to hear.

Looks like your getting a better idea of what that club is trying to do and I'll leave it at that.

 

awesome numbers, those trickflow heads are awesome ...i think there neck and neck with the afr heads ...

 

lol, i was thinking the same thing ... there are definetly some characters on this forum ..

 

"Oh, and btw, that 58MM TB is a waste of time."

Hmmmm, well the LSX crowd is finding more power with bigger throttle bodies. Heck, they are up to around 100mm the last I checked.

Regarding "flow". Don is talking about filling the cylinders with as much fuel/air as you can. I agree with him. If you guys want to nitpick about semantics so be it. I am not playing the game.

 

You are very welcome, glad to help anyway I can.
No LTs, just shortys.
We have another one (355) out there that was putting down 389/365 w/ an Auto (track times of 12.09@113.xx ADA 3100ft)
It will now be placed in my car with a 6 spd., should be at or near 400+ RWHP in my setup.

And another one as Vincent mentioned, his with 383/395.

All of these are sporting...are you ready 195-200 heads.
one with Dart 200's,two with TRF 195's, one with AFR195's.

Another one we did w/ 180 heads didin't even come close to our numbers 320/370.

We have posted all the things we do all over the TPI forums so as to help everyone accomplish their goals.

Cheeez ....didn't I post this in a TPI forum....DOH!

HTH

 

I was there at the dyno. 3 of the cars had Edelbrock LTR's(stock or mild porting). One of them had the Vortec base and heads and it made 300hp with LT4 Hot cam with T5 trans. The other 2 with Edelbrock manifold(stock port) made between 296-307hp. One with TFS Heads the other one with Spotrmans ll Dart Heads.

 

Don! I think he was talking about the Long Tube Runners.

 

I dont think any one was trying to prove anything in this "TPI" techboard, your were throwing out your and it was not needed.

No one on this forum says these heads/afr are the standard, maybe it was another one of these forums that remind you that your talking to a 13 yo

they work great and have proven themselves over and over on a sbc.



Did kevin tune this car?

 

even the one using the 180s put down good numbers im hoping for those numbers at least right now. I almost got the afr 195's kinda wishing i did. seeing the numbers you guys are putting down!

 

Don what were the TFS cores, Super 23's? It would be great if you could post the details just posting the peaks leaves lots of questions. Nice looking build though none the less.

This is a message board people share opinions and a lot of the time they do agree. It doesn't mean it's not welcome, no need to act foolish. That attitude right there is what shows the circle jerk mentality, you don't want to hear anything oppositional (it's not "negative").

You say no one in this forum says AFR are the standard but 2 times in this thread that has nothing to do with AFR it's happened. Silly, I agree.

Tony89GTA that comment was a bit off don't you think? No one mentions those two things together but you.

InjectorsPlus notable for apologizing I thought the same thing as you. But it doesn't look like owning up to it got you very far, so I'll keep it to my self.

 

Please forgive my ignorance,
Is this thread about TPI power results?? Cali legal at that??

Anyway, if I had TPI with that kind of power, I would be feared on the street scene.
Carb, TPI, TBI, LSx, LTx, regardless,
Respectable.... To say the least... IMO

 

Your right about this being a forum, I do agree and no I dont mind hearing it if its in the RIGHT thread.

 

TFS 23* heads. I was there when the head work was done.

 

What was done to them when they had the work done

 

I asked a question about where the power band was, was it at 1500-4000 or did it fall off at 6000? I think that's a pretty important attribute. Then I mentioned there was more to this than flow, that flow wasn't everything meaning I'd like to hear the rest. I guess since I'm not towing the company line, we don't need to discuss anything else. No need to upset a perfectly good party with some insight on how they got there and what the rest of the story is. I'm not a mind reader and before the backslapping starts it would be nice to know what we're all giddy over. So I asked. Sorry if anyone got offended about that.

Well, I keep seeing posts about "how to they compare to ***" right here in this thread as a matter of fact and a few others. And I'm just saying, that's a false measurement. Post 23 and 36 if you missed it.... "How much BETTER would this be if ONLY...." (I'm paraphrasing)

So, I guess you missed that or are so far in the tank you can't see it. Either way, it happened.

 

Why is it there are people who bring up AFR when any other head is mentioned, in this case TFS? Can't we just have a discussion about the combo without daydreaming about how great it could have been IF ONLY......

C'mon guys give me a break. I NEVER see Brodix,Dart, All Pro, Canfield, RHS, TFS, Profiler, or any other advocate of any other brand do this crap. It's ALWAYS the AFR junkies. After years of this I still think it's either a genetic disorder or something curable by a shot of penicillin.

I guess at this juncture we will learn nothing more about this combination other than a peak HP number and some flow data.

Well now, that's informative.

Again, the injectors are too small. I just helped a local guy here with his build. Similar HP numbers on a TPI engine.

He had 30s he wanted to use because "that's what the manufacturers told me"....blah blah blah.

I gave him a set of 36s told him to try it, see how it works. He came back an said the difference was night and day. "feels like a race car now".... I'm waiting on the new dyno sheet. He has a shop cleaning up some odds and ends and getting a dyno tune.