Guys-

Looking for input. I am beginning the ground up build of a 69 Camaro, and am trying to decide which way to go with engine.

The car will only be driven on the street. I will never take it to the track. My goal is just light-to-light performance, and the occasional smokey burnout. Out of the hole and roll on acceleration trump top end. In fact, the car will probably never see more than 75 mph. This doesn't mean I want to build a dog, as I am hoping for neck-snapping acceleration.

The car is extremely clean, so I will not be cutting it all for any kind of mini-tubs or other suspension mods.

I'm in Michigan, so the driving season is pretty short, and this will be a weekend toy, so mileage is not a super big concern.

Here are the options I'm torn between:

1- 383 TPI. It's been 20 years since I have driven a tuned port Vette, but I remember it being lots of fun with all the low end power. And I have a brand new 9.6:1 shortblock in the garage. I would probably back it with a 4L60E with a stand alone controller. ECM would be either stock or FAST EZ EFI. The main reason for this combo is simply because I always wanted to build a TPI project, and never did, so I have not got that out of my system. An alternative would be 383 with a Pro-Flo XT.

2- 454 BBC with an Pro-Flo XT and a 24x setup, LS PCM, and a 4L80E. I have a rebuildable Gen 6 454 sitting in the garage as well. One concern with the big block is the fact that I will be traction limited, so I'm wondering if it makes any sense.

3- LS 6 and 4L60E. I keep reading how this would be the best option, however, I don't have any of this stuff. I have never driven an LS car, so I wonder how they "feel" at lower RPMs? I also like the nostalgia of a SBC or a BBC in the old camaro, but if the LS is head and shoulders above, I would go that route. I just put a 5.3 in my jeep, not yet done. I think I'm really going to like it, but man, it sure is ugly looking.

Thanks in advance for any input.
-Tom

 

If you already have a 383 it should be a done deal? unless money is no big deal A tpi can make great power on the 383 and awesome tq there are alot of guys that run that. It would make sense to port the snot out of the tpi and get LTR instead of stock, I think there is an magazine article on here about a 383 and a tpi.
I have personally ridden in a 383 with a ported tpi and it felt a lot faster then my uncles ls1 corvette on the street with it has well over 400 whp and tq at the wheels, granted When we got on the freeway the ls1 felt faster by a long shot.

As far as looks I think tpi looks really nice when its power coated or polished Especially in an older camaro im not a fan of the way LS engines look personally. I do like the looks of the mini ram tho have you thouight about one of those on your 383 with a nice healthy cam?

All those choices you posted seem like good ones but if you already have a 383 ..........

 

Stock TPI is a LTR (27" )
Nothing in a LTR style intake will let a 383 see it's full potential like a shorter runner intake will
Saying that ,
having 500 ft/lb down low on a engine that maxes out at 4400 rpm has a certain effect

read
http://xtremecarzone.com.au/index.php?showtopic=386

 

aftermarket was supposed to be in front of the ltr haha thanks for finding the article

 

Thanks for posting the article, good read. But the 288 cam they used seems too big???

 

I've driven lots of LS1 cars bolt on and stock and they are really soggy down low in my opinion. However I'm comparing them to my 383 with a super ram that makes 360ftlbs@1800rpm. Right now I'm helping a buddy with a TPI 383 build for his 1-ton truck.

I think building your short block is the best way to get to your goal. I'd heavily port a set of aluminum L98 vette heads, (or zz4 heads same thing) or maybe a smaller set of AFR 185s or something. run a mild cam and a super ram (if you can find and afford one) or a long runner TPI setup with large aftermarket runners and base. I'd heavily port the runners base and plenum and it should breathe up to 5k. It will make tons more off idle and low rpm torque than a stock or mild LS motor and since you already have the shortblock you're already part of the way there. I'd run a 90-92 factory speed density ECM or use the EBL from Rbob. This combo should be capable of around 500ftlbs with lots of that available really early.

You could also build your TPI 383 and run it off of all LS1 electronics with the kit from eficonnection.com. Then if you ever did want to swap to LS power you could just sell the long block and bolt an LS motor in and plug it in.

Bottom line, TPI and cubic inches are king for bottom end grunt.

 

MeanZ, thanks for your response. The "soggy" feel is what I want to stay away from.

As far as heads, I'm leaning towards E-Tecs, with Edelbrock base and runners.

Anybody got any experience with E-Tec 170's vs 200's? I see the Edelbrock crate motors run 170's and make 430 hp.

Would the XFI 268 be a good cam choice???

 

Ive read that article before. You can't deny the impressive torque and hp that they made using stock intake components. The idle with that cam may be slightly choppy but I run a larger cam in my 355 and it's not at all unpleasant and very driveable. Honestly, I would go with just what they did. they don't mention which TFS heads they use. Probably the 23 degree and I would be surprised if they're not at least 200cc. They put a TPIS Miniram on that same motor and made 525hp.

 

I have a bolt on LS1 trans am.... its not really soggy but it sure doesnt wake up til it hits 3200 rpms and above. Now thats when it was stock stall, 2.73 rear. You can floor it from dead stop in the rain and wouldnt spin tire until it hit closer to 3000 rpm haha. Now i have 3200 stall and same gear. Feels much better since you can get the converter up in the mid 3000 rpm range and get the torque. With more gear I'm sure it will feel much better.

Its definately alot different than my old bolt on L98 TPI car. That car with stock stall and 2.77 rear would light up tires all day long from dead stop mash...but the tires were smaller 245/16's compared to the TA's 275/17's.
TPI torque has a nice feel to it, even tho the top end sucks. A simple intake swap on a stock L98 will yeild great track gains and is noticeable on the street too. BUT you do feel a slight difference in how it pulls through the rpm band. A short runner intake like pro-flo xt will not make as much peak torque but should make more average torque across the rpm band, giving it a smooth powerfull pull off idle to redline. TPI has a big peak number and not much after it so you get that quick RUSH of acceleration feel, and it falls off soon after.

Now if you can find a 6.0 liter truck motor and do a mild cam/LS6 type intake on it, it will feel very powefull while giving you extra torque due to the extra displacement. Not a bad option as those motors are going for fairly cheap. Just swap to LS6 heads/intakes for a great combination of parts for low buck price.

If you already have the 383 shortblock then obviously I'd build that to save money. Use what you have, it will work.
I'd personally try the Pro-flo xt intake on top since its similar to the holley stealth ram and I know what 383 HSR motors can do. I had one of those too and it was very stout. Good strong torque band, very flat band like a cammed LS1, which is plenty to move a lighter 3400lb car. It had a good pull from top of first gear mash when it hooked up but even second gear pulls from mid 40's mph were fun. Topend pulled to 6800 rpm. You dont have to take it that far with the heads/cam but gives an idea what the intake can do.

You say 9.6 to 1 compression but with what gasket and head chamber? Are the pistons dished? Try to bump that up into the lower mid 10's to 1 and put a decent 224 to 230 deg cam in it, and it will run hard, give good torque and be easy to tune.

IF you want TPI, i'd go to FIRST TPI systems... buy the package kit for about 1000 bucks (great deal for the parts you get) and that 383 will be strong to 5500 rpm and make that huge TPI torque you are after. I think that would be a stout build and plus, TPI looks cool

 

id atleast go with thth xfi 280 size cam which 230/236 cam people are runing that in a 355

 

A decent compression 383 can use the 280xfi cam on either type of intake, TPI or short runner and will do well.

I've tuned the 280 on a bored out 360" motor and it wasnt too bad. Actually idles very well on stock tuning with minor changes Runs low 12's and with better heads, more gear, more converter I think it will go high 11's. Thats getting it done for a mild 350. That cam really wants a short runner intake and more compression and more head to get the most out of it.

I'd also grind it down to a 110-111 LSA for a 383 or similar. There are better cams out there than the XFI... XFI have their applications while other cams can fit the bill just as well if not better. All depends. Gotta match the components.

For a build looking for short distance runs, good streetability, and street only, its not a bad idea to keep the cam abit small and run better heads/intake. That way you will make big power without having the big cammed car issues and suffering on the low end. More lower to midrange torque is where its at in those applications. A 383 TPI will definately give the torque, but also can be done with a short runner pro flow type intake

 

Yes i agree I was stating the duration of the cam no so much of the agressive lobe design

 

LOL you have exactly described what I was trying to explain. 3 of my buddies have 4th gen LS1 6spd cars. They have exhaust work, one has headers and a lid. All 3 of them are nutless until they get revved up and I hate that, but its just a personal preference. You floor them from a roll in 1st gear and they just drive away. I'd think I was driving a Honda Civic Si if it wasn't for the loud pipes. Floor my 383 in 1st gear and you physically can't back out of the pedal fast enough to keep it off the rev limiter. I like instant violence, a mild LS1-6 won't do that. A modded LS motor would easily destroy my 383 in peak power, but that isn't what you feel on the street leaving McDonalds. I think Orr89RocZ has made some great suggestions, you're going to have to spend a good amount of money on an LS motor to get it to generate the insant punch that a 383 with a long runner intake will, sounds like we all agree on that.

 

Im building a 383 with TPIS Bigmouth and SLP Runners, the runners are highly ported same with the plenum. And the base has just been cleaned up and opened a bit. She should have a boatload of torque.

 

Yeah I dont have a stick shift in my thirdgen, and never had a stock stall so I dont know how "below 3600" rpm feels on a 383 stealth ram motor but it moved off idle very well with part throttle and over 3600 at WOT it pulled strong since the torque curve was so flat from 3600 to 5000 rpm and from 5000 to 7K, hp took over. By the dyno numbers i've seen cammed LSx motors make similar torque within 10-15lb ft but i've never been in one of those so i dont know how it feels.

But if my mild L98 could roast tires from a dead stop, what does that tell you? LS1 has 100hp more and couldnt do it with same tranny and rear gear, just a slightly larger tire. But those 275's had a 340 treadwear rating vs my 180's for my 245's. Thats a sticky street tire and TPI just blew them apart

 

The shortblock has dished pistons, 9.6 w/ 64 cc heads. I was thinking that the compression would be just a bit low to work with the 280 cam, that is why I was thinking 268.

 

Flat tops with 64cc chmbers will put you at 10.2. 10 or more is where you want to be for the bigger cam to keep low end drivability. This is using aluminum heads of course. Cast iron wont tolerate as much compression.

 

BTW, as far as the gen1 versus LS1 debate goes, my 355 eats my son's bolt on Ram Air LS1-6spd for lunch. He hates it but there isn't even a comparison. My beast makes his car look tame and it doesn't matter what speed we're at. I can leave him in his tracks at any time.

 

My buddy has a .060" over 350 L98 based motor with stealth ram and AFR 190 heads/280xfi cam. It will out run my bolt on LS1 car.

 

Yeah, Lol. I suppose Im getting defensive in my old age. There's no denying the awesome potential of the LS series of motors. But us old timiers with our old school gen1s can still hold our own. So you bought an LS1? How's your twin turbo beasty doing?

 

99 TA is my daily driver turbo car is stuck in a garage until spring/summer when I get a chance to play with it again..hopefully over easter weekend I'll be back up in PA to race and cruise around if the motor has no issues

 

Yeah, Cant see 850hp in a daily driver. Lol. Have fun with that beast.

 

I have a TPI system in 1971, but it has a Miniram intake. IMO, the Miniram would be a blast with your 383. Pancake flat torque curve (though not as peaky in the mid range as the TPI's). I love it on my ZZ4.

Also, I wrote a TPI swappers guide. It's targeted at 2nd gens, but I'm sure 99.99% of it would apply to 1st gens as well.

http://ultm8z.com/Write%20ups%20and%20downloads.htm