mechanic58

Ok...before you all get out your flamethrowers...just chill out. I DID search....the problem is that it appears that this forum is overwhelmed with threads related to this subject. Most of the ones I looked at were not useful to me.

I have an '87 IROC with a TPI 305 in it. It runs like pure ****. Won't idle, chugs black smoke and it pops and backfires when you attempt to rev it up. It's popping codes for high voltage at the TPS and at the MAF. Upon closer inspection I found some ham-fisted wiring on the MAF power and MAF burnoff relays. After I fixed that stuff and replaced the relays, I still have the same problems. I suspect the MAF is probably junk, however unplugging it doesn't seem to make any difference in how it runs.

Anyway..., I like the idea of an SD-based setup. I'd rather go that route with it (now) than spend $150+ on a new MAF and then find out that wasn't my problem after all. I would prefer to switch to SD anyway because I have other plans for this drivetrain later on. The ECM that's in the car now is Service Number 1227165. What do I need to do to convert this car to SD? Can I use the existing harness (with minor modifications)? What about the ECM, can I use it with a re-flashed prom or does the entire ECM have to be changed out? I looked for a detailed step-by-step instruction on how to make this conversion. My gut tells me its been done a million times...and I'm sure someone has documented it also...I just can't find it! HELP ME!

Andrew James

iTrader: (3)

I have a question to, forgive my thread jacking if you would... Why convert MAF to SD? In the world of Ford that's a huge *** step backwards... Most do the reversal...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its been documented many times but I dont think this will solve your problem. If the car runs bad on MAF system, then chances are it will run bad on the speed density system because some component in the system is bad. I'd work to solve your problems with the MAF system to save the headache but the swap is pretty straight forward.

Can reuse the MAF wiring harness. Just get yourself a 91-92 ecm with 305 memcal/chip package for TPI. Thats a 730 ecm. Need the wiring harness clips that plug into the 730 ecm. There are 3 that are on the ecm while the 165 MAF system only has 2. I think you can reuse those 2 but need one more harness connection for the 730.

use the pinout diagrams to swap pins to the correct locations. Theres a little tool you can buy to make this easier. I forget the part number but basically its a small metal rod that allows you to push out the pins from the plastic harness end.

Use this site for reference.

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Not on this forum

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...765-post6.html

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

The swap bible

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...f-sd-made.html

mechanic58

Thanks for all the input guys, I'll be studying this today.

mechanic58

Anybody ever use this guy's product? Dunno about you guys, but this really looks like the way to go to me. I can't believe how cheap it is. Hell, my time is worth more than this! http://www.larryselectricsite.com/st...hp?productid=2

mechanic58

Most big hp fuel injection systems run on an SD tune. Fact.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

And most of those are drag race or road race cars that have a narrow tuned rpm range. fact. other than 90-93 gmfbodys

A properly done SD tune will/should take a lot more time than a maf car to nail down the drivablity.
Maf is waay more forgiving for your daily driver or mild streetcar.
I have a maf with a 255 @.050 dur solid roller cam in my car with a stock chip and it runs fine.. (only 4 break n) yes itll be tuned when i get the 60lb injs in it..

I did a car for a guy with a hotcam setup in a SD 91 formy, its untuned and runs but runs like crap but runs.. yes its going to be tuned soon.

Bottom line, each system has its place and is not worth arguing about but lets face it the TPI MAF and SD systems work but nowhere near like they could of or should..

It'll b nice when every cyl has a wideband O2 sensor ,tps, maf and is constanly self tuning 4 conditions.

mechanic58

All good and true points, however an SD motor is just simpler to transplant into just about any other application. There isn't always room for inlet piping and MAF placement, not to mention its un-sightly. Like I said, I have other plans for this engine later on down the road. I'm not interested in spending money on the MAF system to make it work when I could spend that same money (or less) and convert it to speed density.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

larry's electric sells modified v6 memcals so limited LHM, the just jumper the cylinder select . and no knock function !!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The reason it's an upgrade going from the early MAF to the late SD on our cars is in part the same reason it's an upgrade going from early SD to late MAF on a Mustang. You're getting a better processor, updated code, etc. There's some truth to MAF being more tolerant of modifications then SD, but that alone doesn't make it an upgrade. I'd take a SD thirdgen over a MAF car any day of the week and twice on Sunday. MAF cars NEVER seem to run right. I've had a hand full of them, and only one of the MAF cars ran right.

mechanic58

I have the engine harness removed from my car now, I reckon I'm going to re-pin it and swap to a 730 ECM and do the SD swap the old fashioned way. Kinda curious just how cheaply I can pull this off.

abray1

I did the swap on my 89 IROC. I took the harness out of a 92 Z and converted my dash over the the 90-92 dash. I also made the air bag system work. It looks like a 90 IROC now. You would think the harnesses would interchange but the will not. I had to change all the harnesses except the A/C harness and the power window/lock harness. Before I was done I had the entire interior stripped. I did undercoat everything though and add speaker wiring run in factory places but it was a job. You have to get a 90-92 steering column also to do it like I did. I am not kidding it was a job.

mechanic58

I've done that before, several times. I have also converted several older carb'd V6 cars to TPI V8s using all factory stuff. Had to swap gas tanks and all the fuel lines - whole nine yards. You bring up an interesting point though - the dash harness. Now I'm wondering about how this 7165 to 7730 swap via re-pinning affects the connections to the '87s dash harness? I mean it won't affect the physical connection because I'm not changing any of that, but I wonder now if it'll interface electronically? Just off of the top of my head I can think of several circuits that are part of those connectors that are fairly important. ALDL connector, CEL, oil pressure inidication, etc.

mechanic58

Just ordered a 7730 ECM and memcal from Larry's, cost me $150. Going to go up to pick n pull later this week and grab some connectors and a map. Just about finished weeding out my harness. I hope to have this up and running by sometime next week.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Like i said, in that link above I followed those pin outs and my 89 camaro dash works just fine. ALDL works just fine.

The dash harness is a separate harness that I dont believe you repin at all. Should match the 730

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I have changed the magnetic check sum off on the $8d programing so the 730 gets a optical input on pin b10 (brown wire) from the speed buffer works fine.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

yes, all you need todo is repin, remove you esc and jumper the black to blue so the knock wire goes directly to the ecm, romove the ninth injector, change the connector on the maf and repin to map.

mechanic58

Good deal, that's kinda what I was thinking.

Chewbacca was a Wookie.

Yep, that's what I'm planning to do now. However i won't be jumpering anything. I have the entire harness removed and skinned. I'm going to revamp it completely because like I said earlier, I have other plans for this engine later on down the road. I want the harness to be neat and more "universal". I have already weeded a grocery sack full of wire out of it that I won't be using. EGR, Smog pump, Charcoal Canister, ESC, Cold Start, etc. It will be sleek and simple when I get done with it.

I've always enjoyed wiring projects like this. I have done many LT1 swaps into 3rd gen F-bodies.

mechanic58

One quick question - are both 32 pin connectors that the 7730 uses the same? I realize one is sometimes a different color, but will they both fit in either slot on the ECM?

Reason I ask is because as it turns out, I already had another 32 pin and another 24 pin connector in my wiring stash that were from an '89 RS with a TBI 305 in it. These two connectors are identical to the two on the 7165 harness. If both 32 pin connectors the 7730 uses are the same, then I already have what I need.

Edit: I answered my own question. Both connectors are nearly the same, one is just sometimes a different color and the alignment ribs are in a different postion. I'll use the connector I have and just grind those ribs off.

mechanic58

Nearly finished with re-pinning this harness. It hasn't gone quite as smoothly as I had hoped. Some of the wire colors on the original harness are not jiving with the pinouts...and some of them aren't where they're supposed to be either. My car had a 1227165 ECM in it originally - I located a pinout for it but some of its not jiving. I'll get it figured out I'm sure.

Where the problems are happening is on the C2 connector (black 32 pin). On the original harness there was some wire colors that weren't what they're supposed to be and some of the wires weren't placed where they were supposed to be placed. The harness had obviously never been tampered with before, its just not matching the pinout I have for some reason.

mechanic58

Here's the pinouts that I have:

mechanic58

Ok...I am as far as I can go with this until my 7730 and new memcal shows up next week....I used that site as a reference and I can tell you with 100% confidence that the information there is not 100% accurate. The pinout he has listed there for a 7165 ecm is NOT correct. At least it doesn't match the 7165's pinout that was installed in my car. Also, whoever made that pin swap conversion table got some of it backwards. In other words, they referenced pin locations on the wrong side of some of the connectors as if they were looking at the connector from the wrong direction. I only noted a few of them like this; obviously this creates a lot of confusion.

I have a question though that hopefully someone can answer. There is a 2 wire connector over near the brake booster. It has a tan wire (goes to the oil pressure gauge sending unit) and a dark green wire. The dark green wire was landed on terminal C9 on my 165 harness. According to the pinouts I can find, terminal C9 is not used on the 165. I have no idea what this wire goes to inside the car. Anyone know?

I also have questions about the VSS. The 165 harness only has one wire (as far as I can tell) that is associated with VSS, it's the VSS input. The 730 harness appears to require 3 different VSS signals. Do I need to be concerned about this or can I just ignore it?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

85-89 tpi and all tbi uses 2kppm vss signal to the ecm, The sd 4kppm vss signal is direct to the 1227730.

you need a vss signal to the ecm, controls fans lockup and iac. I gave you the work around earlier in the post.

mechanic58

Thanks for clearing that up, it looked like Chinese originally, but now I understand.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

no it was greek !!

mechanic58

Under the dash on the pass side where the main engine harness connects to the ECM, there's also a 15 pin connector that connects to the dash harness. One side of it has 8 slots and the other side has 7. Not all 15 slots are occupied. Does anyone have a pinout diagram for this connector on an '87 IROC? I can't seem to find one.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You sure? I'd have to check my notes but I used that site and those pin outs and my car runs just fine.

EDIT> the link shows the BACK view of the connector while your pinouts appear to be the FRONT view. So they would be reversed between the two diagrams.

mechanic58

Yes, that is correct, however like I said I only found a few that seemed to be backwards. Unfortunately I didn't make any notes. Here's the pinout as it exists on my harness now. Only the wire positions with the red dots next to them are used on my harness. I did away with all the emmissions and smog crap. Other slots that are not emmissions or smog-related that are not used are that way simply because my harness did not have a wire to put there:




The two wires with the colored marks next to them indicate a wire that is a different color than what the pinout suggests it should be. For example, VSS input, terminal B10 - supposed to be yellow...that wire on my harness was brown. Fuel pump control, terminal E13 - supposed to be gray, that wire on my harness is tan with a white stripe on it.

mechanic58

Ok, I have traced out this wire but I am still somewhat confused. The green wire in this 2 wire connector is connected to the temp GAUGE sending unit that is on the driver's side cylinder head. Or at least I think its for the gauge. It would make sense because the oil pressure sender is connected to the other wire in this connector. What I don't understand though is why this wire would be landed on terminal C9 on the 165 harness. ?? None of the pinouts I can find show anything in that position and none of them show any sort of temp gauge input. WTF?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Very interesting, the pinout I have says C10 is the temp signal input. CTS input. YOu double check your count? I have made that mistake a few times.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=19

have you looked here ip's are at the lower section

mechanic58

Yep, triple checked. I do have the MAT input landed at F16. Totally different from engine coolant temp which was landed at C9 on the 165 harness. No pinouts that I can find show anything landed at C9 on a 165.

Edit: I do have the same pinout that shows the CTS input landed at C10 on the 165 harness. However that is a different input than the one I'm talking about. The wire that was landed on C9 was coming from a sender located on the driver's side cylinder head, not the CTS which is located on the front of the intake manifold. The '87 TPI 305 has FIVE temp sensors on it.

1. CTS - front of the intake (lands at F16 on the 730 harness)
2. Cold start temp sensor - front of the intake next to the CTS (not using this one)
3. Cooling fan switch - passenger's side cylinder head (lands at the cooling fan relay)
4. Temp gauge sender - driver's side cylinder head (don't have this hooked up to anything now)
5. EGR temp sender - screws into the EGR base beneath the upper intake plenum (not using this one)

mechanic58

Hmmm....let me study this.

Edit: Found it! http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport..._1987_C207.gif

mechanic58

Success! My 730 from Larry's showed up today. I plugged it in to my homemade harness and fired it right up. Next.

TPIMonteLS

iTrader: (1)

In comparing SD vs MAF, if you take the same exact motor (modded mild 350) and convert from MAF (which is dyno-tuned) to a SD setup and get that dyno tuned...would you gain anything performance wise?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/

TPIMonteLS

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the link. That is the site I've been looking at quite a bit and created my MAF to SD adapter harness as he has done. I see some numbers comparing his runs in MAF vs SD but not while SD was fully tuned in. Also, his motor is a bit more built up than mine. Just wondering what others have experienced, if they have the same parameters (dialed in MAF AND SD tunes to the same motor/setup).