Sporkeldee

So, Excuse me if I ask the stupid questions, New to the sports car game.

I just got back from Afghanistan and found an 89 Formula 350 WS6 for sale, and decided to take it home with me. it's been a garage queen most of it's life, had 99k miles on it. It's got a couple little mods, like accel plugs and plug wires, MSD coil and flowmaster catback.

I want to start into the motor, but I digress, I'm better at building a computer than an engine. What should i start with first? I still intend to keep this thing street-able.

I was thinking starting with a throttle body airfoil and an edelbrock 3891 intake, which I'll get ported out before I put on. Is this a good place to start? or should I go with headers to finish off the exhaust?

with the intake manifold, since you use the factory plenum, will polishing the insides make a difference? or is it worth the trouble?

BuzzLOL

[ I want to start into the motor -Sporkeldee ]

. LOL! You need a little more PLAN than that! . WHAT are you trying to achieve? You're not satisfied with it's current performance?

. Yes, headers are something that gives a good jump in performance... recovering the power lost to the stock iron manifolds and y-pipe...

. Being computer literate, definitely read the Performance Prom sticky above (and even if you weren't), it could save you a ton of money...!

. Your location isn't showing. Do you have to deal with emissions testing where you are?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Read this on TPI mods and take special note of what is written at bottom of page
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/vader86/minormods.html

burnout88

1

burnout88

I do not agree with everything in this article. My mods are below and I have cut 1.5 seconds off my quarter mile time.

1. Hedman Headers,
2. 3.73 gears
3. Crane Gold 1.6 Rockers
4. Hand Ported Plenum, Easy
5. Shift Kit in Trans
6. MSD 6A ign
7. Jet Stage 2 Chip
8. March Power Amp Pulleys
9. Holley AFPR
10. 52mm TB
11. SLP Airfoil,
12. Throttle Body Coolant bypass

The Headers and 3.73 gears delivered the most et times. But the chip, ign. pulleys, AFPR also did work togeather to drop some additonal time. The throttle body did nothing but the airfoil did improve the throttle response.

Sporkeldee

It's an Ohio car, so no smog to worry about, and I'm not taking this car out to the track, it's a cruiser mostly, but i need something to play with, and I figure if i get it up to about 300 rwhp, and take care of a couple body work issues, (rear spoiler is rotted out) I'll call it complete.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

You could try something that most people do not do and start by going to the DIYPROM section here and learning about burning your own chips (tuning) first, while your car is still stock since you said you are comfortable with computers already.

This knowledge will give you a very big advantage when it comes to trying modifications and adjusting the tune to make them work out correctly for you. When you start datalogging you will get very acquainted with how things are supposed to look stock, as a baseline for future changes. It will also give you a big advantage when it comes to troubleshooting possible problems that can pop up, and with long-term maintainence of your new car. These advantages can't be overstated.

There is also some performance to be gained by taking the time to completely tune your own vehicle (PROM burning), even with a stock engine.

rgarcia63

It would help to polish the inside of a carb, or a TBI intake which is a wet intake , but not a MPFI intake which is a dry intake.

Anti-Venom

I'll help provide further elaboration. Burnout's list is a great starting point.

I agree the airfoil won't net you any gain but I noticed better throttle response with mine also. I did the TB coolant bypass also, Again I didn't notice any gain but I don't drive my car in the winter and heating the TB isn't beneficial for anything but aiding cold starts when the weather get's cold out. As for the 52mm TB, the stocker really doesn't become a restriction untill you get up to around 300hp, a 52mm should support you up to 400hp before needing to go to 58mm as a general rule for NA apps. I would recommend a drop in K&N in the stock airbox, they are proven to be less restrictive than a std paper element.

As for the chip, I remember reading a magazine build article somewhere (Might have been Project Blue Thunder also in GMHTP) where the writer tried some performance chips and actually lost ET with each chip and ended up going back to the stock chip. A second article I read in GMHTP with comments from the cars owner trying the same thing seemed to support this also. I haven't tried one myself but everywhere I have searched seems to show a loss with a chip. Custom tuning is the way to go here.

Headers will net you a very noticable gain. For a 350 motor you will want 1 3/4" headers as the 1 5/8's are tuned more for a 305. Formula's ride a little lower due to the WS6 springs and Hooker longtubes will cause some ground clearance issues however will provide a better gain. Personally I went with SLP smog delete 1 3/4's shorties as there is no emissions testing in my area and less ground clearance issues with them. I understand there's a better design out now from Dyno Don that fixes some of SLP's known quality issues. I will tell you my SLP Y pipe fit's like *#it and I had to dent the bejeesus out of them for the steering shaft and I would recommend Dyno Don's as your best option.

Intake will be your next most noticable bolt on gain. Do some reading here and decide within what your goals and ability are. Hand porting the stock stuff will help but the gains are minimal. Aftermarket base and runners are a common bolt on, and great for bolt on only cars where low end torque is desired. But they won't avoid still having to do some porting.

In order of RPM/Power capability without extensive custom porting or fab work.

1. Aftermarket runners and base (LTR) -Bolts on, again some porting also suggested. Again great low end torque. Will move the flat spot up in the RPM's a bit. Base and runners will run you around $600

2. SLP T-Ram -Extremely rare but worth mention, rumored to only be around 250 produced. Very high priced if you can find one. Great mid-range manifold thats still smog legal. Seems to be one for sale every couple years from $1500-$2300.

3. Holley Stealth Ram (HSR) -Great top end gain with loss of lower end torque. Fitment issues on Formula's requiring hood brace to be cut. Cheap for the gains and known to be the best bargain intake. Around $600 for everything.

5. Accell Super Ram (SR) -IMO stay away from this one unless your running big qubes. 383 for example. This intake was designed for stroker motors or high RPM app's. Royal PITA to install. last I looked was around $1000 for upper box and base.

6.TPIS Mini Ram (MR) -Excellent manifold but expensive at around $1300. Similar to LT1 with excellent top end. Great fit. IMO the best aftermarket manifold for our car's but doesn't really shine until you do cam and heads. This manifold is tuned for high RPM.

As for a catback, For the price vs quality. Magnaflow seems to be very popular. Especially if you remove your cat's then the flowmaster will get a little cackely and has some bad decel popping. Magnaflow is polished stainless and will last considerably longer and is known to flow better. They don't make them for 3rd gen but I used the LT1 setup and it bolted right up with little trouble. Mufflex is also popular.

I haven't tried an underdrive pulley yet but that is on my list and known to provide a little gain. Just don't run one with a Sub and Amp unless advertised not to underdrive the alternator.

Alot of people have found some gain in bumping up their base timing and fuel pressure with an AFPR. Mine however seemed to be an exception to the rule and didn't like it. This seems to be hit and miss, is a tuning tool, and will only gain you what the motor is lacking in tune. Truly this is only a bandaid for correct prom tuning. As previously mentioned, the DIY prom section is a large undertaking but well worth the effort and even on a stock car burning your own chips is an invaluable skill.

1.6 roller rockers are an excellent upgrade. Stay away from the cheap china quality ones. Scorpions seem to be ok. These will gain you lift and a little bump in duration. Also reduces weight on the valve tip which results in better valve control and less valvetrain wear. For stock heads and valvecovers you will need narrow body self aligning rockers.

I also have a rebuilt 700r4 with a transgo kit. It will chirp second even at slow takeoff untill the fluid warms up.

That should be enough info to break the ice for you and get you started. Just remember to research everything before you spend money and make an informed decision. Unless there's proof of a gain, and you understand what that gain truly is, don't buy it. There's alot of internet myth modifications and if you buy into things too much you will be convinced even your door strikers are seconds from destruction unless you buy aftermarket.

burnout88

I forgot to add a 160 thermostat and the Hypertech fan control switch that screws into the head and turns the fans on eariler. These cars run very hot for emission purposes. Cool them down and you will get a faster running car.

I do get a very constient tenth in the quarter mile with my testing and the JET stage 2 chip. Ed Wright makes some chips for stock cars that are pretty awesome. He is a custom tuner. If I had to do it again I would use one of his enhanced stock-mod chips. http://www.fastchip.com/

BuzzLOL

.. Hot Rod August 1988 issue has tests of several aftermarket 'performance' chips and TB's (larger throttle bodies) including mono-blade mod on 1988 TPI 350" Camaro and Firebird and they were honest enough to admit not one improved the perormance, most slowed the cars down, and some introduced spark knock that would prolly quickly damage the engines... they didn't do exhaust/runner/intake/cat mods in that issue, which, as we know, is the best starting point...

.. I could have sworn I saw that article on here someplace, but I can't find it now... issue has about 14 pages of good mostly TPI, some EFI, TBI, SLP, TPI 400", emissions, info...

.. I wouldn't put a 160 thermostat in unless burning a chip to compensate for it... can also control fans that way...

.. After reading the Super Rod sticky above and seeing a dead stock TPI can support 400+ HP if you can get enough torque by 4500 RPMs before the infamous TPI-resonance-tuning effect limits things, I'm thinking mods to the stock 350" to increase mid RPM torque could be the most budget friendly improvement after headers/exhaust to increase HP... such as 2-eyebrow flat top or mini-dome pistons, tight quench, backcutting the valve heads, porting the bowl, higher compression ratio, and 1.7 rocker arms...

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

How about starting off with a catback exhaust.

burnout88

The original OP already has a Flowmaster catback exhaust.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Then the most logical mod would be headers, next.

burnout88

Anytime anyone asks about this you always get a lot of opinions from people who have not done a damn thing to there cars. Every mod is worthless to them. Yet, the guy who has done them all and tested them at the dragstrip with over a 1.5 seconds off in the quarter mile knows nothing.

Apparently, even cooling down the cars operating temp with a 160 thermostat is worthless. Give me a break!! Stop with the damn google search experts!!

Sorry everyone my car is faster with the JET chip and 160 thermo I am not making it up. You just have to accept it.

Sporkeldee

I'll go with headers to start with. Fortunately, I'm in Japan right now until march, so I can save my pennies and I SHOULD have a pile of stuff to bolt on once I hit the good old USA.

I have a question. The previous owner had installed an extra electrical radiator fan, and It's actually potent enough to make the temp gauge drop all the way down. I know it's not creating an electrical pull, because it is on it's own circuit directly off the battery. Since the motor is capable of running that cold regardless, is a 160 degree thermostat even needed?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Headers are a great bang for the buck mod. 160 thermostat and you will have a weak heater in the wintertime. It will still go into closed loop just fine tho. I run a 180 thermo in mine with a custom chip. A tune makes the world of difference!

Anti-Venom

Dude nobody doubted that you personally gained from a chip. However there are vast numerous accounts of people slowing down with one. That doesn't mean it didn't work for you. That means there are a lot of documented accounts where it didn't work for others. And I'm far from just a google search racer. I've built more than one or two TPI's with hundreds of passes down a few tracks.

Now go back and read where I said your mods are a good start.

Now take this into consideration, For what you spent on an AFPR and a chip you could have been burning your own tunes, adjusting timing and fueling correcting in the bin, along with fan controls, and gaining the ability to data log. And then you would know why your chip worked to net you those gains.

BuzzLOL

.. A 160 thermostat may tell your ECM that your engine hasn't fully warmed up yet, so the ECM will tell the injectors to flood your engine with excess fuel all the time (like the choke on a carburetor)... washing the oil off your cylinder walls and wearing your engine out and making it run sluggish under most conditions... it might also make it a tad faster at WOT as long as the engine lasts...

.. As Anti-Venom is hinting at, you can go into the prom and correct all of that for all operating conditions... this is all explained in the "Performance Prom" sticky thread above... reading that may give another 5 - 10 tenths in the 1/4 as well for almost free...

burnout88

Anti-venom I was not refering to your comments I was referring to these ridiculous statements as listed above. Now a 160 thermostat is going to blow up your motor?? Is this guy serious?

I have had a 160 thermo in my car for 15 years. It did not blow up my motor!! RIDICULOUS!! ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!!!!! And my car is not sluggish under most conditions. STOP MAKING THIS STUFF UP!!

I also have a data scanner and can log and scan my runs. I have a perfect fuel mixture to add. I do not care to burn chips it is not something I enjoy doing.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

From where you are you can download a tuner program, a binary file similar to your car's, a definition file, and a hack; and then start learning about the tuning process now. All of that is free, and accessible via internet.
There are volumes of information about setting everything up, the equipment you need, and about how the coding works linked from this forum DIYPROM section. You can do this in your free time now, as well as having new parts waiting for you at home.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Much easier to buy an ALDL cable to connect a laptop to your cars ecm and then use one of the many Datalogging softwares out there. Then you can see what your car is doing. Then after getting comfortable with that. I would send in one of your recorded datalogs to one of the many companies out there that burns custom chips. Then you will be able to see the changes made in the custom chip that help you achieve better performance as opposed to the stock chip/bin. Then at that point you may be ready to buy the chip burning equipment and start learning how to burn your own chips.

spurgeon76

Check this link out. http://www.tpichips.com/350.htm

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...all/index.html

That's a pretty good article too. Shows you what a custom burned chip can do.

burnout88

Thanks for sharing, that is a very good article and demonstrates the correct way to acheive results. They dropped a full second in the quarter mile with bolt on parts just as I was able to do.

I got all my results with making fuel pressure adjustments based on ET runs at the drag strip and using my hand held scanner. I never saw any spark knock. However, I replaced my injectors with New Ford Motorsport 19lb units and also run the MSD 6A and MSD Pro billet distibutor. I burn really clean and have a great fuel mixture.

Ed's first chip was to aggressive for that 305 but after that I think they could have got rid of the spark knock with fresh injectors and a better ignition system.

burnout88

Here is another section from that article where they add some roller rockers and port the plenum and play with the timing. Also talk a little about the 20 hp they got from SLP runners and pulleys.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ork/index.html

Anti-Venom

It's all good.

I will agree, blowing your motor up is a little dramatic, however running rich is a possibility and can happen. It's possible, (not always the case) that a 160 stat won't even warm the motor up enough to get out of the enrichment tables in the PCM. This can potentially cause a rich mix under all but WOT conditions. Running to rich can wash the rings. Again you would never know this unless your able to log. I don't feel this applies to all base tunes and maybe someone else can help shine more light on this.

IMO a 160 stat does run a tad cool for my taste. I run a 180 stat as a good compromise. The factory run's way too hot for emissions at 210 degree's.

BuzzLOL

.. Actually, I said running rich wears the engine out faster (and fouls sparkplugs), not blows it up...I said spark knock from the crappy aftermarket chips they sell can blow your engine up quickly...

BuzzLOL

.. A fan can't pull engine temp down to like 100 degress... lower than the thermostat temp! ... Unless the thermostat is bad/stuck open... or there is no thermostat... in any event, the engine won't run completely right if operating 'warmed up' at a temp lower than the ECM is set up for... something to investigate when you get home...

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Is a 160 stat needed you ask? Only if your ecm is set for it. For example a hypertech stage 2 chip makes the fan come on at 176*. Which is about right for a 160 stat. I mean i prefer the 180 stat with fan on at 195. I have heard a 160 stat helped promote better transmission life by keeping the coolant colder tho. LOL For the record nothing beats a custom chip though.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

When i had my hypertech with the 160 stat, the cars actual coolant/operating temp was at 170*. Verified through TTS Datamaster