Total advance on your TPI?
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Total advance on your TPI?
I'm wondering what you guys are running for WOT spark advance on your TPIs? I have a 221/230 cam, 10.5:1 compression, and bolt ons and I can only run about 21* at lower RPM, ramping up to about 28* at redline without seeing knock. I am running an aftermarket DFI system.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I would think you could run about 30-32* at about 3800, carrying it to red line. I run vortec heads and have about 31* with no knock. During cruise I run about 38*, and idle about 20*. Vortec and the AFR's have a similar combustion chamber.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Thanks, I am actually running 50* at no/light throttle with no knock, then I blend it down to the 20s at WOT. I have my idle around 24*.
So you have all the timing in by 3800 and then keep it flat to redline?
So you have all the timing in by 3800 and then keep it flat to redline?
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
What HP and times do you have with your set up?
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Pretty bad is why I'm looking into it.
1/8 was 9.1 (horrible 60' times) but consistently around 79MPH.
Vincent, what is your HP/TQ and what is your 1/8 MPH?
1/8 was 9.1 (horrible 60' times) but consistently around 79MPH.
Vincent, what is your HP/TQ and what is your 1/8 MPH?
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
At the dyno we are running 31-33 total at WOT
19-24 @ idle and 42 no load cruising.
19-24 @ idle and 42 no load cruising.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
My Express with vortec like ETec170s and a 215/220 @ .050 cam runs best with the curve as follows, Cranking timing is 12*BTDC, Idle is 28*BTDC +/-3 for idle speed control, at WOT, 12* @ 1,000, 20* @ 1,600, 24* @ 2,000, 26* @ 2,800, 24* @ 3,200, 30* from 3,600-4,800, 32* from 4,800-5,200 and 34* above 5,200. As the engine heats up and the catalyst overheat routine starts to kick in, the timing retards up to 6* across the board as the commanded air/fuel ratio richens from 13.4:1 to 12.2:1. Cruise timing is limited by the vortec distributor to 42*.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I recently changed over to SD and added a WB O2. I have not run this setup yet. I think I am leaving power on the table but need to go to the track to confirm. Total timing is about 31 @ 12.4-12.6AFR Through a 2-3 gear pull. The way I am dialing it in is looking at the acceleration of the car(same stretch of road).
My old setup which was MAF had roughly the same timing curve and no WB(so tune was not proper) and a trans that would not shift to third unless I lifted and then got back into it ran 13.4@100. The time in my sig was one before I had the trans issue.
My old setup which was MAF had roughly the same timing curve and no WB(so tune was not proper) and a trans that would not shift to third unless I lifted and then got back into it ran 13.4@100. The time in my sig was one before I had the trans issue.
Last edited by hrspwr; 04-11-2014 at 08:05 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I am going off memory now, but I think at about 3800 I have about 30* then slowly blend it to 31* but red line. I like to try and have timing come in hard then slowly add it. I will see if I can take a screenshot of how mine looks.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that 50* is impossible. As Fast355 said 45 is max.
I am going off memory now, but I think at about 3800 I have about 30* then slowly blend it to 31* but red line. I like to try and have timing come in hard then slowly add it. I will see if I can take a screenshot of how mine looks.
I am going off memory now, but I think at about 3800 I have about 30* then slowly blend it to 31* but red line. I like to try and have timing come in hard then slowly add it. I will see if I can take a screenshot of how mine looks.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
The HEI type computer controlled distributor works up to 42* advance over the base advance. On a Y/F car TPI engine the base is set at 6*. You could get up to 48* total advance at part-throttle. In just about every calibration I have seen you can only run up to 42* advance over the base. If you alter the programming to run more, you will actually reach a point where the spark will start jumping to the wrong rotor terminal and wrong cylinder. Tried advancing the timing more than 42* on the express at very light throttle and it started skipping and jumping and backfired a few times. Quickly learned it didn't like more than the 42* limit it had stock. At the moment my distributor/CMR is set at 0*, I plan to adjust it to 8* someday soon and try more timing.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I do not think this is correct. In your timing table you can set your timing values. These values incorporate the 'base' timing you set in the tune. The only way to get above 48* is to cheat, ie. set 42* in the timing table(as I believe there is a scalar that limits it to this), set the base timing in the tune to 6*, then set the actual base timing at the distributor to 12* to add the additional 6*. By doing this you will have 48* at the crank, but only 42* in the tune and no spark jumping.
The limit is 42* distributor advance NOT including initial timing. If you set the initial timing at 10*, set the calibration to reflect 10* initial timing, you could program 50* advance in the main spark table, and at the crank it would run up to 50* advance.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
At the moment, I am running a base of 10* and in the main SA table I am running 30-31. Your telling me that I am running 41* of timing at WOT? Then during cruise I am running 38* for a total of 48*?
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Do you know what your AFR is? When i first started tuning my ciurrent setup I was running ~13.1 and it would lean out to about 13.5 AFR. It didn't knock but it was a stone. I added fuel and leveled it out so that the AFR was constant through a pull and power came back.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
If you set the timing to 10* at the distributor and leave the initial value in the calibration at 0*, you would absolutely be at 41* if the spark table was programmed 31*. If you set the distributor for 10* ATDC, you would only have 21* of timing.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I understand exactly what you are saying and are saying the same thing, the issue is your posts contradict. This is what I am saying:
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing.
******this does not factor in any values or logic surrounding temp, idle correction, etc.******
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing.
******this does not factor in any values or logic surrounding temp, idle correction, etc.******
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I understand exactly what you are saying and are saying the same thing, the issue is your posts contradict. This is what I am saying:
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing.
******this does not factor in any values or logic surrounding temp, idle correction, etc.******
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing.
******this does not factor in any values or logic surrounding temp, idle correction, etc.******
42* is the advance limit of the distributors EST mechanism....PERIOD END OF STORY....More advance starts jumping to the previous cylinder and you get dead misfires. To run timing values higher than 42* BTDC the factory had to advance the initial timing of the distributor.
42* is the upper limit for the EST system to advance the timing over the base or initial timing value. If the physical distributor is timed at 6* BTDC, total timing can be programmed to be 48*BTDC with the 42* limit in place.
EDIT....If you know source code or how to read a hack, I can gladly open one and show the timing calculations, etc.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
My whole point is you do not have to cheat to get above 42* of timing. It can be done in the spark table, all you have to do is adjust the initial timing to say 10* BTDC and set the initial value in the calibration to 10* and you can program up to 52* BTDC in the calibration. GM did the same thing on the corvette and any TPI for that matter.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
In fact just to further your understanding, I am going to quote RBobs 7747 spark tuning article found on DIY-EFI.org.
Here is the whole article to further explain how it works.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747spark.txt
0x019: Maximum spark (2 bytes). This value is the highest
total advance that can be programmed into the
distributor. Any Calculated Total SA above this
value gets clipped to this value.
--- It's purpose is due to the physical limitations of
the distributor. You can only advance the timing
so far until you are sparking on the previous
| cylinder. With eight spark firings per distributor
| revolution, there are only 45 degrees between each
| set of plug wire terminals on the cap. GM uses the
| value of 42 degrees as the maximum advance. This
| always a safety margin to direct the spark to the
| proper terminal.
|
| However, this is not the limit that can be run at
| the crank. If you set the static timing to 10 degrees
| BTDC, a maximum of 52 degrees can be had at the crank.
|
| The 42 degree limit is only the distributor limit.
| Crank timing is the total of the static setting, and
| the amount programmed by the ECM into the distributor.
| It just becomes a balance of how much total crank advance
| is required, versa, how much static (inital), timing can
| be used (and still hot-start).
(if it becomes a limitation, you need a DIS system).
0x01B: Maximum Retard (2 bytes). Maximum total amount of retard
allowed. For the same reasons as max SA above.
OK, so what do I do with the above, and how does it all fit
together?
Note: These calc's are completed 80 times a second, asynchronous
to the actual timing signal from the distributor.
First, a quick run down of what the code does. Remember, just
because a value is calc'd, doesn't mean that it has to be
greater than zero in value.
1) A look up is done on the Main SA table, the value retrieved
is based on the current rpm and map values. Call this Total
Spark Advance, or TSA for now.
2) The Slope, if any, is calculated and added to the TSA.
3) A look up is done on the Coolant Compensation table using
the current engine temp and manifold vacuum. Add this to TSA.
|4) (adjust for any egr spark, SA is added if egr is active).
| (a lag filter calculation is done here also, but appears
| to be egr related only. The lag filter allows for the smooth
| change of SA whenever the EGR is enabled/disabled).
5) Add in any PE spark to TSA. Calc'd in a separate routine.
6) Add in any aldl/closed loop spark, to TSA.
7) Add in any Start-up Spark, to TSA.
8) Add in any Hi-way Spark, to TSA.
9) Subtract the Warm Bias spark value, from TSA.
10) Subtract the Cold Bias spark value, from TSA.
11) Subtract the Initial spark value, from TSA.
12) At this point, the TSA value is tested against
the Max Allowed Spark Value. If it is greater, it
will be set to the maximum allowed SA value.
13) Subtract any Burst Knock, from TSA.
13) Subtract any Knock Retard, from TSA.
14) The TSA value is tested against the Minimum
Allowed Spark, and adjusted to this minimum value
if required.
15) A Spark Latency correction is made and the end
value is sent to counters in the ecm. An output from
the counters control when the distributor will spark,
relative to the incoming distributor pulse.
total advance that can be programmed into the
distributor. Any Calculated Total SA above this
value gets clipped to this value.
--- It's purpose is due to the physical limitations of
the distributor. You can only advance the timing
so far until you are sparking on the previous
| cylinder. With eight spark firings per distributor
| revolution, there are only 45 degrees between each
| set of plug wire terminals on the cap. GM uses the
| value of 42 degrees as the maximum advance. This
| always a safety margin to direct the spark to the
| proper terminal.
|
| However, this is not the limit that can be run at
| the crank. If you set the static timing to 10 degrees
| BTDC, a maximum of 52 degrees can be had at the crank.
|
| The 42 degree limit is only the distributor limit.
| Crank timing is the total of the static setting, and
| the amount programmed by the ECM into the distributor.
| It just becomes a balance of how much total crank advance
| is required, versa, how much static (inital), timing can
| be used (and still hot-start).
(if it becomes a limitation, you need a DIS system).
0x01B: Maximum Retard (2 bytes). Maximum total amount of retard
allowed. For the same reasons as max SA above.
OK, so what do I do with the above, and how does it all fit
together?
Note: These calc's are completed 80 times a second, asynchronous
to the actual timing signal from the distributor.
First, a quick run down of what the code does. Remember, just
because a value is calc'd, doesn't mean that it has to be
greater than zero in value.
1) A look up is done on the Main SA table, the value retrieved
is based on the current rpm and map values. Call this Total
Spark Advance, or TSA for now.
2) The Slope, if any, is calculated and added to the TSA.
3) A look up is done on the Coolant Compensation table using
the current engine temp and manifold vacuum. Add this to TSA.
|4) (adjust for any egr spark, SA is added if egr is active).
| (a lag filter calculation is done here also, but appears
| to be egr related only. The lag filter allows for the smooth
| change of SA whenever the EGR is enabled/disabled).
5) Add in any PE spark to TSA. Calc'd in a separate routine.
6) Add in any aldl/closed loop spark, to TSA.
7) Add in any Start-up Spark, to TSA.
8) Add in any Hi-way Spark, to TSA.
9) Subtract the Warm Bias spark value, from TSA.
10) Subtract the Cold Bias spark value, from TSA.
11) Subtract the Initial spark value, from TSA.
12) At this point, the TSA value is tested against
the Max Allowed Spark Value. If it is greater, it
will be set to the maximum allowed SA value.
13) Subtract any Burst Knock, from TSA.
13) Subtract any Knock Retard, from TSA.
14) The TSA value is tested against the Minimum
Allowed Spark, and adjusted to this minimum value
if required.
15) A Spark Latency correction is made and the end
value is sent to counters in the ecm. An output from
the counters control when the distributor will spark,
relative to the incoming distributor pulse.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747spark.txt
#22
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Also if you look at the old 80s oldsmobile 307s. They ran 20* initial at the distributor and as much as 50-60* total spark advance. The Vin "9" cars prior to swirl port oldsmobile heads had a very low dynamic compression ratio that require massive amounts of timing advance.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
In fact just to further your understanding, I am going to quote RBobs 7747 spark tuning article found on DIY-EFI.org.
Here is the whole article to further explain how it works.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747spark.txt
Here is the whole article to further explain how it works.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747spark.txt
What RBob has written is correct(actually the articel I was trying to find). You have misunderstood it. Look at my calculation in the previous post.
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing. (or as RBob referrs to it as Crank timing(which is what it is))
(0-0)+42 =42
(10-10)+42=42
(10-0)+42=52
Specifically:
| However, this is not the limit that can be run at
| the crank. If you set the static timing to 10 degrees
| BTDC, a maximum of 52 degrees can be had at the crank.
Last edited by hrspwr; 04-11-2014 at 11:30 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Also if you look at the old 80s oldsmobile 307s. They ran 20* initial at the distributor and as much as 50-60* total spark advance. The Vin "9" cars prior to swirl port oldsmobile heads had a very low dynamic compression ratio that require massive amounts of timing advance.
LOL. I am sorry. This is also true. Max of 40* dizzy advance (which is possible as 45* is the max any 8 cylinder dizzy can handle) with a base of 20* can net 60*. This is possible because there is no ecm controlling the dizzy timing to skew the base, its all weights.
Unless I am missing something
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
What RBob has written is correct. You have misunderstood it. Look at my calculation in the previous post.
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing. (or as RBob referrs to it as Crank timing(which is what it is))
(0-0)+42 =42
(10-10)+42=42
(10-0)+42=52
.
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing. (or as RBob referrs to it as Crank timing(which is what it is))
(0-0)+42 =42
(10-10)+42=42
(10-0)+42=52
.
The equation I am talking about is somewhat different as 42* is the EST limit
42*EST +10* INITIAL = 52* crank
Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
LOL. I am sorry. This is also true. Max of 40* dizzy advance (which is possible as 45* is the max any 8 cylinder dizzy can handle) with a base of 20* can net 60*. This is possible because there is no ecm controlling the dizzy timing to skew the base, its all weights.
Unless I am missing something
Unless I am missing something
#27
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
What RBob has written is correct(actually the articel I was trying to find). You have misunderstood it. Look at my calculation in the previous post.
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing. (or as RBob referrs to it as Crank timing(which is what it is))
(0-0)+42 =42
(10-10)+42=42
(10-0)+42=52
Specifically:
| However, this is not the limit that can be run at
| the crank. If you set the static timing to 10 degrees
| BTDC, a maximum of 52 degrees can be had at the crank.
(base timing at dizzy - base timing in tune) + spark advance value in tune = true timing. (or as RBob referrs to it as Crank timing(which is what it is))
(0-0)+42 =42
(10-10)+42=42
(10-0)+42=52
Specifically:
| However, this is not the limit that can be run at
| the crank. If you set the static timing to 10 degrees
| BTDC, a maximum of 52 degrees can be had at the crank.
On the ECM side it is 52* spark table - 10* initial timing = 42* EST advance +10* physical timing = 52* crank
Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
Now if you were for example to use a stock TBI truck calibration at the stock TDC timing.
52* spark table - 0 initial = 52* which the ecm would cap to 42* = 42* + 0*physical = 42* crank.
On the otherhand...Lets say you advanced the distributor and left the ecm setting the same.
52* spark table - 0 initial = 52* which the ecm would cap to 42* = 42* + 10* physical = 52* crank.....However the increased values from 42 up to 52 would do nothing at the crank.
42* spark table - 0 initial = 42* which is the ECM limit = 42* + 10* physical = 52* crank
52* spark table - 0 initial = 52* which the ecm would cap to 42* = 42* + 0*physical = 42* crank.
On the otherhand...Lets say you advanced the distributor and left the ecm setting the same.
52* spark table - 0 initial = 52* which the ecm would cap to 42* = 42* + 10* physical = 52* crank.....However the increased values from 42 up to 52 would do nothing at the crank.
42* spark table - 0 initial = 42* which is the ECM limit = 42* + 10* physical = 52* crank
Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I am not arguing anymore.
OP, I am sorry to wreck your thread. Let me know if you want/need anything. You can send me a PM if you want to see what my tune looks like.
OP, I am sorry to wreck your thread. Let me know if you want/need anything. You can send me a PM if you want to see what my tune looks like.
#30
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I'm putting a similar set up together. But I'm using the TPIS ZZ9 Cam, ported base, ported Vortec Heads, siamese Edelbrock Runners, 52mm TB, 30LBS Injectors, Dyno Don's 1 3/4in headers, dual cats, 3in Magnaflow cat back, 3.23 gears and 700r4 with a 2400 converter. It should run in the mid 12's@107-110mph with the proper tuning and tires.
#31
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Car: 89 GTA
Engine: 6.0L Procharged
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
LOL @ all of the timing arguments!
I'm running Accel Gen 7 with dual-sync dizzy so I can put whatever I want in the timing table. I put 50 degrees, it runs 50 degrees.
Vince - what is your 1/8 mile ET MPH?
I'm running Accel Gen 7 with dual-sync dizzy so I can put whatever I want in the timing table. I put 50 degrees, it runs 50 degrees.
Vince - what is your 1/8 mile ET MPH?
#32
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
On my old set up was 7.99@90mph. This set up is not tuned but it went 8.4@87mph
#33
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Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 350 Vortec TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: BW 3.27
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
'86 Camaro IROC 350 with Comp Cam .480/.495 lift 212/218 duration, Vortec heads, Edelbrock Vortec TPI baseplate and Runners, 700R4 with Shift kit Shorties with 3" dual cat y-pipe into 3" Flowmaster, and 3.27 Borg Warner gear with Disc. Runs 13.302 @ 104mph with 1.89 60' on a Street Tire.
I'm putting a similar set up together. But I'm using the TPIS ZZ9 Cam, ported base, ported Vortec Heads, siamese Edelbrock Runners, 52mm TB, 30LBS Injectors, Dyno Don's 1 3/4in headers, dual cats, 3in Magnaflow cat back, 3.23 gears and 700r4 with a 2400 converter. It should run in the mid 12's@107-110mph with the proper tuning and tires.
I'm putting a similar set up together. But I'm using the TPIS ZZ9 Cam, ported base, ported Vortec Heads, siamese Edelbrock Runners, 52mm TB, 30LBS Injectors, Dyno Don's 1 3/4in headers, dual cats, 3in Magnaflow cat back, 3.23 gears and 700r4 with a 2400 converter. It should run in the mid 12's@107-110mph with the proper tuning and tires.
Side note, do you have pics of your ported base?
#34
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
That is a close combo. should run pretty close to what you think as well. My intake is stock with those times, and stock stall. Changes since then include ported lower, gasket matched runners and opened plenum. Want to get a few runs in the way it sits to see what the car does with the changes, then I will put a superram on it and see how it reacts.
Side note, do you have pics of your ported base?
Side note, do you have pics of your ported base?
Here's my heads specs!
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Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 350 Vortec TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: BW 3.27
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
If you take a look the injector bung it is stepped to hold the seal in place. I thought of doing it as well just like a normal tpi base, but I fear that the lack of the step could cause a leak. I basically created a teardrop shape around the bung to guide the air.
#38
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
LS injectors are shorter. They give you extra O-rings to help seal in the bung.
#39
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Total advance on your TPI?
I just found out today that my Vortec manifold was flowed with and without the injector bung. 225cfm with/244 without.
Last edited by VincentZ28; 04-23-2014 at 07:37 PM.
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