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Another hard cold start thread....but.....

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Old 08-16-2017, 09:27 AM   #1
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Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I may be on to something. My car would really have a hard time starting after sitting for a day or two. It would take like 5 or 6 crank overs for it to start. Once started it ran perfect and started perfect every time the rest of the day.

So I did some searching here which lead me to the fuel pump relay located on the firewall by the brake booster. I took it apart, noticed the wires that go into the connector (that make contact with the relay) had a lot of play. They could slide in and out quite a bit.

Anyway, I cleaned them up. Ran the tests, made sure the fuel pump came on when jumped direct. Which it did. I put it all back together real tight making sure all the wires were snug in the connector as to make sure they grabbed the relay pins.

Turned the key and can hear the fuel pump run for 3-4 seconds. Ok I did that Sunday so now we wait...

Got in the car last night which was a full 48 hours the car sat. I turned the key to run, left it for a couple seconds and then started it...BAM it started right up. Made my day!

So this morning I go to start again, same procedure. But it took 2 crank overs for it to start.

So I guess my question is....what is normal? Is it normal for it to sometimes take 2 or 3 cranks or should it start on the first crank every time?

And on a cold start should I put the key to run and wait a few seconds then start it?

Overall I'm happy even with 2 cranks on a cold start over the 5 or 6 it was doing before. And it would give me a hard time even after sitting for just a few hours so I think I am on the right track.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:32 AM   #2
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

The engine should try to start after a revolution. Your fuel pump could be bleeding back or maybe a ninth injector issue if equipped.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...atic-only.html

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Old 08-16-2017, 11:59 AM   #3
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Yeah that 9th injector was going to be my next try if messing with the relay didn't do anything, but it clearly did. I'll leave it be and see if there is any pattern in it's starting habits and go from there.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:13 PM   #4
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

i am curious, I have been having the same problem, did leak down tests last fall, outcome was FPR regulator, which was replaced 2x, once last summer when gas was in plenum cause of ripped diaphram, replaced it with a AC delco unit, still had starting issues, no gas leaking into plenum though.

Did leak down test as suggested here, results brought me back to FPR, so replaced with adjustable one from southbay, same problem, 3-4 cranks to get car started when it has sat, once started, it will start all day long on first crank, leave it over night and back to 3-4 cranks

would love to get this resolved.....read another post regarding fuel pump relay wiring, my wiring on my relay is shady, even though I always hear the fuel pump running when key turned on, I will look for a new pigtail for my fuel pump relay and replace, not holding my breath though, as I doubt it will resolve my hard starting
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:48 AM   #5
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Ugggggg...still dealing with this and it's driving me nuts.

Problem is it's not consistent. Some days it will start so quick the engine almost jumps through the hood at the jingle of the keys and other days it literally takes 5+ minutes to get it started.

Check fuel pump relay.....good
Checked to see if fuel pump comes on when key turned on....good

I even started using non ethanol gas which seemed to help but still a problem on some days. I also put an inline check valve on the fuel line going to the fuel rail. I thought the fuel was back feeding to the tank and the long starting was because the engine was trying to pull the fuel all the way from the tank to the engine. No change with the check valve.

What drives me nuts the most is some days it fires right up. It could sit for 24 hours or 5 days and it doesn't matter. Sometimes it will fire right up even after days of not being run.

Started right up yesterday after not being run for 3 days. Shut the car off at around 4pm and now it's 10:30 am and it took forever to get it started.

Uggggggggggg!

Please help me figure this out before I take out the sledge hammer.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:55 AM   #6
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Did you follow the flow chart for the ninth injector diagnostic.
I have a extra timer switch. If it or the ninth injector are failing you can update to the 89 calibration. I have done this for many members just a thought to eliminate a component.
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:06 AM   #7
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I hope this gets solved as I have a similar problem

When i go to start mine, I must crank 3,4 or more times to get it to start, but once it starts and i shut it off and turn it back on it starts instantly, if i let it sit for 15 minutes it still fires up right away, however next day when i try to start it does the same crap of cranking numerous times


my 9th injector is gone, installed a adapter with my chip that has been set for the removal, or so I was told when i purchased the adapter
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:23 AM   #8
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance View Post
Did you follow the flow chart for the ninth injector diagnostic.
I have a extra timer switch. If it or the ninth injector are failing you can update to the 89 calibration. I have done this for many members just a thought to eliminate a component.
I guess that 9th injector is going to be my next stab at it. It all seems to be there and in stock condition.

Is that calibration that chip mod from here?

http://tpiparts.net/inc/sdetail/11100/1495
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:32 AM   #9
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

The cranking peramiter can be changed to help on the 89 tune.
It won’t start until it sees 8 distributor reference pulses.
Values can be added to 1-7 to eliminate longer cranking.
Some people use piggy back adapters I prefer to reprogram the memcal.
The cold start injector can be disabled electricaly bye unplugging it or the timer switch.
Or a better solution if it might be leaking is a block off kit.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/85-88-Camaro-...%257Ciid%253A1

Last edited by Tuned Performance; 10-26-2017 at 11:38 AM. Reason: More information
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:24 PM   #10
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Yes, that is the adapter i purchased
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:53 PM   #11
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

The adapter is a moates.net g1
Not a bad deal programmed from tpi parts
http://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adap...-etc-p-32.html
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:35 AM   #12
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I like the adapter, but its a little squirrely in my 16197427, and it makes me feel like it'll just come lose the next speed bump i hit.
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:54 AM   #13
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

That’s how a zif acts , I never use zifs dips are the way to go. Or modify the memcal with a moates d2.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:22 PM   #14
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Or this:





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Old 11-01-2017, 04:07 PM   #15
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I have an 89 305 that has the same symptoms which eliminates for me, and possibly others, the idea it is a 9th injector issue. I've gone through new distributor, coil, wires, plugs, IAC, IAT, air filters, fuel filter, FPR and still hard starts after sitting overnight. Can hear the fuel pump but the possibility of fuel leaking back out seems the most logical as it acts starved. Hate if that isn't it though as that doesn't seem to be an easy fix. If anyone gets it with something else let us all know.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:13 PM   #16
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I have no experience with TPI, but have your checked fuel pressure? I know you said the relay is working, but Ive seen issues where the pump was going bad and it would produce low fuel pressure with key on, then bleed off quickly. Would be hard to crank when sitting overnight, but run fine even with ridicuously low fuel pressure. It did have a code for both banks lean. Only symptom other than that was the extended cold start cranking time.
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:27 PM   #17
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I can vouch for the TPI PARTS Adapter: http://tpiparts.net/inc/sdetail/11100/1495

Solved my hard cold start problem on my '86, also got to finally change the fan on/off temps as well. Bought the over priced block off kit and have yet to install it, just unplugged the injecter until I have time to get in there to install it, Cars been running fine since April '17 as is..

but as Tuned Performance states: probally best to burn a chip to fit the slot in the long run..

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Old 11-01-2017, 05:35 PM   #18
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blnee View Post
I have an 89 305 that has the same symptoms which eliminates for me, and possibly others, the idea it is a 9th injector issue. I've gone through new distributor, coil, wires, plugs, IAC, IAT, air filters, fuel filter, FPR and still hard starts after sitting overnight. Can hear the fuel pump but the possibility of fuel leaking back out seems the most logical as it acts starved. Hate if that isn't it though as that doesn't seem to be an easy fix. If anyone gets it with something else let us all know.
Does the '89 even have the 9th injector? maybe some early ones do, I don't know?
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:06 PM   #19
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Check fuel pressure. Then get under the car, put a rag around the fuel pressure return line with vice grips and pinch off the line. Turn key and see if it holds pressure. If not, turn the key, then pinch off the feed line. If the pressure holds, then u know fuel was bleeding back into the tank via the feed line. Supposedly there is some sort of check valve in the pump thats supposed to keep that from happening.
If the pressure doesnt hold when the line is pinched, then the fuel has to be going somewhere, and possibly out of an injector. But I would think you would see some massive smoke the next morning if that were the case.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:59 AM   #20
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

With my 89 APYY map, my car starts right up.
With the 87 ABUS map, it has cold start issues
With the 87 ABUS map with 89 cold start table and 9th delete, it still has cold start issues.

Not too bad, but 87 map two cranks. 89 half a crank.

My stock 89 LB9 has some WTF's with the maps. The 89 map has an unsolved high rpm/ heavy throttle misfire that did not exist before I refreshed all of the engine parts but runs great otherwise. The 87 map (even with 89 cold start table and 9th delete) does not have this problem but does have the cold start issue.

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Old 11-08-2017, 07:57 AM   #21
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

You are just kind of guessing unless you get a fuel pressure gauge and actually observe the fuel pressure while priming and cranking. Have someone video the gauge or setup your camera phone to record it while you do that. If you bleed pressure off instantly, it's probably going to be that check valve in the fuel pump. Also, pull the vacuum line off the plenum that goes to the fuel pressure regulator and sniff it for gas. It should be dry.

The cold start injector has a temp switch over by the passenger side of the intake manifold right next to the coolant temp sensor. I guess you could ohm the CSI to see if it's shorted or something as well as the temp switch.

Is your car a MAF car? Are you showing any trouble codes?
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:29 AM   #22
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Not sure if you solved your problem but read the following article on what sensors a TPI engine needs to read before it fires up, like the oil pressure switch. i like when my engine spins for a few cranks to build a bit of oil pressure especially in the cold months. My 73 firebird i have a kill switch that i leave off while cranking and then I flip it to on so the engine fires with oil pressure built up from cranking.


http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...g%20pg%20a.htm
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:58 PM   #23
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

A lot of bad information in that page, for example:

"When the engine is first fired off, the ecm allows the fuel pump to run, a oil pressure switch is closed when it sees good oil pressure. In event of a oil pump or oil pressure switch failure, the fuel pump will not run. "

Is dead wrong...

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Old 12-11-2017, 05:15 PM   #24
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeepitreelz View Post
Not sure if you solved your problem but read the following article on what sensors a TPI engine needs to read before it fires up, like the oil pressure switch. i like when my engine spins for a few cranks to build a bit of oil pressure especially in the cold months. My 73 firebird i have a kill switch that i leave off while cranking and then I flip it to on so the engine fires with oil pressure built up from cranking.


http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...g%20pg%20a.htm
What exactly are you "killing" and waiting for pressure to get high enough for your liking?
Like Rob said that page appears to be completely wrong according to wiring diagrams I have seen. If its anything like the trucks from the same era, and diagnostics on my own here recently, the oil sensor is simply just a backup relay to the main relay you will find under the hood. If the main relay fails, your oil sensor will still be there working in it's place (IE working in parallel). I can also have a failed oil sensor, and the main relay still work. I wont have a prime, though, since the main relay handles that.
And then apparently in the 80-90s started all of these assumptions that the reason for the relay in the sensor was just in case there was a collision, the loss in oil pressure would kill the vehicle so there wouldnt be an exposion... uh no, the main relay would still be powering the vehicle lol.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:31 PM   #25
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Hey guys,

Sorry for the long delay. After I made my last post the problem seemed to vanish. The car was starting every time no matter the down time. At worse it would take 2-3 cranks cold to get it to start.

But....the problem is back and worse than ever. It seems to start better after sitting for a week then just over night. I let the car sit for over a week and it started on the first turn of the key. I drove it yesterday and came out today to start it and it really gave me a lot of trouble. Literally takes me over 5 minutes to get it started.

The 9th injector seems to be in stock condition, I'll have to look into that but I'm going to try that unit from TPI Parts.

I'll let you know...

Last edited by ScarabChris; 01-06-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:16 AM   #26
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Ok I got the chip thing from TPI Parts. The car had not been run since Monday. Last night (Thursday) I went out and installed the part. I disconnected the 9th injector like the instructions said.

All installed....car sat for 3 full days.....started on the first turn of the key. I wasn't sure this was the fix as it would sometimes start right up after sitting for a few days but when it always gives me problems is after sitting for only one night...and man it would take me almost 5 minutes to start almost killing the battery from running the starter so much.

So I just went out and started it....BANG! Started right up.

I'm still skeptical as there have been times when it just decided to start so I'll report back after a few more starts but I think this did the trick. If so it will have been the best 90 bucks I have ever spent. LOL
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:01 AM   #27
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro View Post
What exactly are you "killing" and waiting for pressure to get high enough for your liking?
Like Rob said that page appears to be completely wrong according to wiring diagrams I have seen. If its anything like the trucks from the same era, and diagnostics on my own here recently, the oil sensor is simply just a backup relay to the main relay you will find under the hood. If the main relay fails, your oil sensor will still be there working in it's place (IE working in parallel). I can also have a failed oil sensor, and the main relay still work. I wont have a prime, though, since the main relay handles that.
And then apparently in the 80-90s started all of these assumptions that the reason for the relay in the sensor was just in case there was a collision, the loss in oil pressure would kill the vehicle so there wouldnt be an exposion... uh no, the main relay would still be powering the vehicle lol.
What is being killed? Spark to the engine and as oil pressure climbs i flip the switch and the engine starts, simple.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:17 PM   #28
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

So my question, if the adapter works for you, why do I still have the hard start problems? I have the same adapter installed, the 9th injector is disconnected, it is even removed, have a block off there now
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:51 PM   #29
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayshegoes View Post
So my question, if the adapter works for you, why do I still have the hard start problems? I have the same adapter installed, the 9th injector is disconnected, it is even removed, have a block off there now
Don't know....you may have some other issue that causes the same starting symptoms. I'm fairly new to the TPI myself. I had an identical car back in 1992 but I had no problems with it so I never had to mess with it, I just drove it and got laid a lot. LOL. (I was 19 with a 5 year old Trans Am GTA)

But again.....I am not 100% sure yet that this is the magic fix. On very few occasions the car would start with no problem. So either this is the magic fix or I happen to get a couple of lucky successful cold starts right at the time I installed the adapter. I will update the thread as I gain more starts whether good or bad.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:51 PM   #30
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Started this morning as mentioned....started right up. That was at about 9am so roughly 10 hours ago. Typically after sitting 10 hours it would give me trouble. Again it started right up so I'm starting to be a believer in this PROM adapter.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:52 PM   #31
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Still starting nicely. Plus I installed a high torque mini starter. Has a much different sound.

.be" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6-U9bWhbig&feature=youtu.be

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Old 01-13-2018, 08:29 PM   #32
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

pretty cool. apparently everyone hates the 9th injector.
do u have a video of the mini starter, because that video post is dead.
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:44 AM   #33
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Fixed it...
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:36 AM   #34
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

I am starting to think the unit from TPI Parts was in fact the magic fix for my problem. This morning it's 50 degrees and I went out to start it after sitting overnight and she started right up.

No question in my mind on a cool morning like this I would have had to spend a good 5 minutes getting it started and nearly kill the battery in the process.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:38 PM   #35
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Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

Ok I think I can conclude this thread with a final post.

The car starts fantastic every time! The PROM chip adapter is...for me....the magic fix and in more ways than the starting issue.

Today I drove it all day, I drove it on the highway and around down for hours straight, burned a good half tank of gas. It's not terribly hot today, temps are around 75 today so I was cruising with the windows down and AC off.

The car just runs smoother. Before when sitting at a light, car in gear and stopped...the engine would surge up and down by a hundred +/- RPM. That issue has vanished.

Also, the engine runs cooler. This may be due to the engine temp fan switch programming because it would get warm sitting in traffic. Never over heated but it would just creep right to the 220 mark. Now it won't make it past that half way tic mark between the 100 and 220 mark. So if the markings on the gauge are evenly spaced that would be about 160 degrees. I'm sure it will go a little higher on 90 degree days with the AC on. But comparing similar conditions....it's much cooler.

So anyway....very happy! Thanks for all the help guys!!
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:14 PM   #36
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Engine: 5.7 TPI, 5.7 TBI to TPI
Transmission: 700r4, 4l60e
Axle/Gears: G80 3.23, 3.42


Re: Another hard cold start thread....but.....

good to hear
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