ok , so tell me if this will work to set pinion depth. What i found was a telescoping type thing, that looks like a depth mic, but doesnt have any measurung device on it. its just a T with the two end of the T adjustable/spring loaded. Now, can i use that, and measure the two ends of the T with a micrometer?

Also, i found a dial indicator, but no magnetic base. Can I rig up a way to make it work without a magnetic base?? get me some tubing and stick it in the hole on the backside of the dial indicator and bend it to where it needs to be, and vise grip it to something?

yes yes i know i should go run out and spend 200 bucks on the *proper* tools but, i think theres Small ways around it.

i believe the telescoping T things will work, i wish i had a pic of them to show you what im talkign about, i found them at Harbor Freight. I tried my best to explain them above. they are a really simple design, shouldnt be hard to imagine, or perhaps you know exactly what im refering to.

 

here ...found a pic...and my idea is to bolt a piece of metal across the carrier housing brackets, and use the T between the piece of metal, and the end of the pinion. Then pull the T out, locked in place of the measurement, and then measure the T with a micrometer.

Sizes…
A- 5/16" (8mm) to 1/2" (12.7mm).
B- 1/2" (12.7mm) to 3/4"(19mm).
C- 3/4 " (19mm) to 1-1/4" (32mm).
D- 1-1/4" (32mm) to 2-1/8"(54mm).
E- 2-1/8" (54mm) to 3-1/2"(90mm).
F- 3-1/2" (90mm) to 6" (150mm).

 

and will this torque wrench work for the inch lbs?

"120-960 inch/lbs. lock in torque settings"


Do I need one that goes lower than 120 OR higher than 960?

 

you need a dial type torque wrench that reads in in/lbs to check preload. maybe a beam type wrench would work too, but i've only used the dial types. the tee things are called snap gages or telescope gages. i'd guess they'd work if you could get your hands in there and keep them squared up. no resaon you need a mag base, but it'd be a lot easier. you'd need to make something to use for a datum to use the snap gages

 

oh yeah you need to be able to read from zero to around 25 in/lbs so you don't need a lot of range on a torque wrench but you do need to start at zero.

 

you mean i need the type that has that lil uhm...beam or whatever that sweeps across a chart type deal??????

if you could show me a pic thatd be great.

and i found a mag base dial indicator and a depth mic on ebay for 25 a piece....for both.....good good deal there....

i just need a pic of what kind of torque wrench i need

 

Make sure the dial indicator reads in .001 or smaller increments. Also, get calipers that read in .001" increments.

I wouldn't try using the snap gauges for pinion depth. Either use the right tool, or just do it by trial and error. If you start with the factory shim you should at least be close. When you run the pattern you'll be able to see if you need to go up or down in thickness. Eventually you'll get a feel for how much thickness changes affect the pattern.

I use a clicker style pounds/inch torque wrench that reads from 5 up to over 100.

I got my measuring tools at Harbor Freight and my wrench at Sears.

 

see our harbor freight isnt very big, so they didnt have the magnetic base, but they did have a dial indicator. they did not have a depth mic at all....they just had the telescoping T's.

the dial indicator reads .001 as well as the depth mic.

harbor DOES sell the slide type depth guages....the one thats like a slide rule type deal.....i dont trust those though.

and im pretty sure i could get away with not using the guages at all, just by trial and error, and reading the pattern a few times....but im going to have to run from point a to b to use a press and i dont feel the urge to run across town 8 times by trial and error. id rather just get the guages, do it one time and be done....ya know....

 

how can you measure preload with a click type torque wrench? the break away torque is always considerabliy higher then the actual preload torque.

i really doubt a beam type torque wrnch would be very good since the numbers tend to be very close together and it's hard to read when the wrench is spinning around.

 

where do i need to use the inch lbs torque wrench??
what are the torque specs for the ring?
what are the torque specs for the pinion?
torque specs for the carrier caps?

sorry, i cant seem to find that info anywhere, the haynes manual doesnt get too in depth on tranny
or rear end related things.

i heard a cadillac manual has pretty good rear end tear down specs, is this true? is there a manaual i can get that shows good specs and pictures? as well as instructions?

 

buy a good manual, motor, chiltons, helms. use the in/lb torque wrnch to check preload on the pinion and carrier. considering your lack of knowledge and tools do you think this is sometihng you can undertake on your own? know anyone that can help out in person instead of on line? it isn't that hard but it does require some specialized tools and equipment as well as a bit of ability. if you want to continue with it go slow and think everything through before you do it.

 

ill be the first to tell you, i know nothing about rear end work.

but ill also tell you i didnt kno wanything about engines and that didnt stop me from ripping it apart , didnt know anything about heads, or porting and polishing...valve lapping,installing a cam , ecm crap...the list goes on, and my car runs great.

the bad thing about that is, 90% of engime mods is pretty self explainitory, take a part off, slap the other on, make a small mod here and there for a bracket or a fuel line and its done.

i feel 100% confident that i can take the rear apart and put it back togather. Its just the measuring and specialty tools required thats gonna throw me off.

i ask alot of simple stupid questions that i *should* already know because i want to be 100% sure that what i think i know is correct.

and yes , if i get in trouble at all, i can get someone to help me.
one of my friends has done this before, but i hate asking for help, that and i like being able to say "yeah i did that by myself"

my plan is to completly take the whole rear off and have it sitting on horses so i can see what im doing instead of fumbling around under a car looking upwards with no real sense of direction. i feel that this will prolly take me about 3 days to do,maybe even a week, and i have the time to forrest gump my way through this.

define Preload please.

 

The torque wrench I use works fine. I've built three rears with it, and have had no problems for tens of thousands of miles. In truth I prefer the beam style torque wrenches, but I couldn't find one when I needed one, so that's why I got mine from Sears.

Randy's Ring and Pinion offers a book on gear installation that is amazing. It's short, to the point, and easy to understand.

If you are careful you don't need a press to put the bearings together. You can use brass punches and a hammer. I rebuilt rears, transmissions, and transfer cases like this for years before I got my own press. Use the old rear pinion bearing (as long as it is in good condition) and hone the inside out with a brake hone so it becomes a slip fit on the pinion. This will allow you to set your pinion depth without having to press the bearing on and off, which is nearly impossible to do without destroying the bearing, even if you have a press and the proper shells.

You can always order stuff from Harbor Freight online, but I've got to believe that they can get anything from their inventory at one of their stores.

Working on rears is something that a lot of people find intimidating. I'm glad to see you're willing to take the plunge. It really isn't all that difficult, but it requires more knowledge than it takes to just bolt something together, which is probably why a lot of people don't want to do it.

Preload is best defined as negative clearance. If you had a bearing assembly that measured .562" before installation, and .560" after assembly you would say that it has a .002" preload.

 

ty, i appreciate you, and everyone else,, taking the time to tell me how to do this. i know its alot more to it than just bolting stuff onto an engine which really takes no measurment at all, it either fits...or it doesnt.... cam shaft swap was prolly the closest ive come to having to be real precise, other than setting timing and junk liek that. but thanks to alot of people on this board, and alot of research and reading, in the last two years ive come from not knowing how to change oil, to being able to rip the whole engine out, and rebuild it, and modify just about everything under the engine bay. i still have some stuff to learn, no doubt, but im a far cry further than where i was two years ago.

thats a REALLY good idea about honing the old bearings out to where they are a slip fit to use as a guide until i find the correct shim depths, THEN use the correct shims with the new bearings.... A+ on that idea man....gooood call. that saves me so much time and kicking and throwing tools. cant stress it enough...GOOD IDEA!!!!

but yeah...i have always been less than wealthy, i can afoard parts, but no labor costs. that and i like to be able to say , Yes, i did that. all me. i saved 400 bucks doing it myself. and in the long run if something ever breaks in that area, you know how to fix it.

so if anyone else has any ideas how to make this easier, thatd be terrific.

any ideas how to crush down the crush sleeve without an impact wrench? if not its cool, im taking the whole rear out so i can take it wherever to get help on it if i need it. i think itll be alot easier working on the rear , NOT under the car. with the rear on horses, so i can see wtf im doing, and take my time, and have 2 halogen lights on the assembly...

 

guess i over simplfy how i think of preload. i just think of it as the amount of force require to keep the part spinning, not break away torque to get the part spinning but to keep it spinning. there's nothing wrong with jumping in and doing something you've never done. i've done rears on cars that launched with the front in the air and never did one before. rebuilt automatic and manual trans with never seeing the insides of one before. being the dumbass that i am i have to go a little slower than most and think a little longer but the end result is a functional repair or mod. also getting into something new is a good way or reason to buy more tools. i've been doing this a couple of years now and have more in tools than i do houses.

 

ok so, update, i ripped the whole rear off , took 2 hours without ever doing it, as well as bolts being rusted on for 12 years...nto too shabby......dropped the rear end onto a skate board and rolled the sucker out ...did the same with my old tranny from the 86 lol.

so ...i pulled the cover off the rear, drained the fluid, pulled the axels out......pryed the carrier out, which was harder than expected...

so now im left with the pinion i havent taken out....i got tired, hungry....decided to call it a day and be happy with the fact that i made a good dent in the project.

so now owuld be the time if anyone knows anything they feel i need to know, TELL ME lol ty

 

With the rear out of the car you can hold the pinion with a big pipe wrench, or make a tool that bolts to the u-joint holes so you can hold it steady with one arm. Then use a long breaker bar (most likely with a pipe on the end) and start to crush the sleeve. It's a lot easier to do this with two people, but if you are reasonably strong, and your friends never seem to be around when you need them, you can do it yourself.

Another option is to measure the sleeve that came out of the rear. Then start to cursh the sleeve in a press. Don't take it all the way to the same measurement, but just start the crush. Starting it is what requires all the force. Once it's started the amount required to eek up on the right preload is minimal.

A third option is to reuse the orignal sleeve and install a shim or two under it.

 

i take it , that it was a good idea to just pull the rear out completly?

Where cna i get GM posi additive? and where can i get differential fluid?

auto zone nor napa seemed to have any, im sure they can order the fluid, i more than likely have to get the posi additive from a GM dealership correct?

i CAN do this without the depth mic and dial indicator cant i? i mean IF i cant get them, which im trying.

i have read a few instruction booklets about gear installs and they oddly enough didnt call for those tools, they just said paint the gears and roll em over and read them....

about crushing the sleeve. can i use the Drive shaft brackets and bolt then on over a large pipe and use that to hold it? i mean i have a huge pipe wrench i can use if i need to....im just worried about geting the gears in right. i dont wanna eat them suckers up in 30 miles

 

You will need a dial indicator to set the backlash. I don't see any other way of doing it. Some old guys I know do it by feel, but they have been setting up rears for 30 years!

You'll most likely have to go to a GM dealership for the posi addative. Use 85w90 gear oil in the rear. This is easily available at Pep Boys, NAPA, ect. Look for oil that meets GL5 specs. It will say this right on the bottle.

Setting the crush sleeve wrong won't affect the gears. It's the pinion bearings that would get ruined if it was done wrong. I guess you could use the driveshaft straps and a pipe, but I don't see how you would be able to tighten the nut doign it that way. Also, I would worry about deforming them. The pipe wrench is a better alternative.

 

ok well i can get a dial indicator from harbor freight, they just dont have the magnetic base.

How exactly do i use the dial indicator....i have never used one and i dont have a clue what im supposed to be doing with it..

can i get away with not having a depth mic?

yeah i see what you are saying about the bar bolted onto the yoke, it wont work.....ill just use a pipe wrench.....

 

this is basicly what told me i didnt need a depth mic or a dial indicator... *not saying its correct* im jus tgiving the reason as to why i didnt think i needed it.....and why i think i can do it by reading the pattern

http://www.drivetrain.com/ringpinioninstal.html

edit

more info i just found, helps me a good deal, maybe someone can pass it on to the next new commer to gear swapping.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...148_0207_bolt/

the more i find , the more ill post here.....id like to compile some sort of folder or SOMETHING that cosists of good pics, info and guides to do this.

that chevy site has ALOT of useful info in it.....everyone should check it out...its worth the time

 

Just reading the pattern isn't the end all and be all of gear setup. It will let you know that the teeth on the gears are meshing properly, but backlash also has to do with how the carrier bearings are set. You could have a perfect pattern with too much or too little backlash, trust me I've seen it.

You really will need a magnetic base to use the dial indicator. Essentially you position the end of the indicator on the back (coast) side of the ring gear. Rock the ring gear all the way the opposite direction of where the indicator is mounted. Zero the dial (loosen the set screw and spin the outer face until the needle reads .000"). Now rock the gear back towards the indicator and take a reading. This will tell you the backlash. If the backlash is too high add shims to the left and subtract them from the right. If it is too low, add to the right and subtract from the left. You'll be looking for between .005" and .010" for a street car. Drag cars will be a little tighter .003-.005, while road race cars a little looser .010-.012.

 

so do i place the shims under the carrier bearings like i do the pinion? or do i put the shims on the outside of the bearing cases?

ill try my best to find a dial indicator today.....can i get away with not having the depth mic? the mic is whats gonna cost th emost, and no one responded to my questions on ebay...i dont like to buy things from there without asking questions and getting a valid response.

i still dont really understand how im supposed to use the dial indicator, i looked at the pic of it being used and didnt see how it worked too wel...im a kind ahands on person, you can tell me how to do something 100 times and i wont understand until i see it done....sucks for me....oh well....ill figure it out sooner or later

 

you need to buy a manual that has rear end gear set up in it. it'll have pics and specs. the carrier shims go between the bearings and the houseing, just like the ones that were in it when you took it apart. if you're reusing the original carrier just put the same shims back in where they came from.

 

im using the zexel torsen from slp ....and ill search today for a good manual to do the swap.....i just dont know which manuals have a good break down.....i know haynes isnt worth a damn....do you happen to know of one thats good?

the only problem is, most of those manuals are sealed in cellephane....and most places dont liek ya opening the manuals without buying them

 

i have an old chiltons that has a very good rear end section. not sure on newer ones. motor makes good manuals but are hard to find. usually the gear sets have pretty good instructions with them.

 

Call Randy's Ring & Pinion and get their gear installation book. It is only about gear installation, so you don't have to buy a whole book, most of which you don't need.

I don't see why you would need a depth mic. You need a good set of calipers that read in .001" increments to preperly measure shim thickness.

Always start the setup with factory thickness shims under the pinion bearing and for the carrier. With new bearings it is doubtful that you will be able to reuse the factory shims. The factory shims are single thick shims. The factory uses a case spreader to install them. Instead measure up stacks of shims that are the same as the factory ones. This will allow you to install them. If the shims are too tight take one thin shim for each pack out (.002" or so). This will allow you to setup the gears without having to fight the carrier into and out of the housing while you are getting the pattern right. The carrier can't be loose, but it doesn't have to be super tight like when you finally install it.

 

ok well, i went ahead and got the telescopring Ts, a digital micrometer --was 20 bucks at harbor!- a bearing seperator to try to use ....a dial indicator that reads .001, i got a magnetic base BUT the bar is way too big to fit into the small hole in the back of the indicator... ill rig a way to make that work....duct tape lol...

hopefully thats enough to get this going.....i still dont have a inch lbs torque wrtench that measures from 0 ......i gotta look around to find one...harbor's torque wrench measured from 20 on....

 

I had to fabricate a bracket to get my dial indicator to work with the magnetic base (both were from Harbor Freight). It isn't that hard. It has to be free of unwanted movement though, or your readings won't be accurate.

I got my pounds/in wrench at Sears. It was reasonable in price, not like a lot of other Craftsman stuff.

 

yeah i got my mag base and indicator from harbor, the shaft on the mag base is way too big for the indicator hole.....

so the bearing seperator SEEMED like it would work lol.....im just gonna have the suckers pressed off, to hell with spending 2 hours using this damn thing

 

What do you mean by bearing sperator? If you mean one of those two part deals with the bolts on the sides and the hole in the middle; those are meant to be used with a press. If you mean a two or three jaw puller then good luck. I've never had much luck removing bearings with them. The carrier bearings are particularly hard. I usually cut them off with a wiz wheel.

 

yeah the kind that had the two bolts on it.....go figure, i thought as you tightened the bolts, the incline pushed the bearings off....Dammit lol. i have one of those cutters you are talkign about, but i need to re use the old bearings as you mentioned....hone them out and use those to shim by....

this post is getting seriously long, if anyone wants they can IM me on AIM

AspiredTwo - AIM

 

you can use a puller with the bearing seperator, i never have but that's what the two tapped holes are for.

 

was wondering what those holes were for....lol...you said you used a Bar across the carrier caps right ede? do you know what the distance is suposed to be from the underside of the bar --closest to the pinion-- from there to the top of the pinion....

and should it be the same length as stock? or no...

 

all mine is is a piece of .5x1xwhatever aluminum drilled to bolt up where the bearing caps go. it works for 12 bolts and both sizes of 10 bolts. i'd suspect it may fit other rears as well. i just use a 2-3 rod on a depth mic and measure from the aluminum bar to the pinion and then subtract .5 for the thickness of the bar. no idea on the length of it, i just made it to fit a 12 bolt i was doing 20 years ago now. also made a special tool to hold the pinion. .25x3x40 steel. transferd the holes from the pinion yoke to the steel then drilled it and used a hole sw to make a hole in the center big enought for a 1 1/4 socket in 3/4 drive. made a new hole later on for 7.5 10 bolts. painted red with a richmond and moroso decal on it.

 

So you made your own pinion depth tool? Could you post a picture of it? I do enough rears that this is probably a worthwhile thing to have, but I'm not paying $300 for one.

 

they sell depth mics NEW on ebay fpr 25 bucks.....now...i dont know how accurate and reliable/durable they are....but its prolly worth a shot

i think ede is talking about the bars he made to use as a datum surface ...i place to sit the depth mic and measire from....i dont think he made one, ...or at least thats what i understood....if so i wanna see a pic too.

ede i guess i should have clarified my question some more, ....do you know that the depth was from the datum to the pinion?

if so i can use that as a great reference point when i use the T guages.

 

no what i made is piece of aluminum so i could use a depth mic, so i didn't have to buy anything. it bolts across the CL ot the carrier bearings, or in place of the caps. all i have to do is measure with the depth mic and subtract .5 for the thickness of the bar from my pinion depth reading. no i can't post pics i'm a dumbass and don't know how, or have a digital camara sorry.

pinion depth is differant for each gear set, the depth should be etched or engraved on the end of the pinion, something like 2.345

 

where would it be engraved in it?? the head of the gear? shaft?

only thing i see if gm 11-41 and nothing more.....damn you gm!!!!!!

 

should be on the end of the pinion you see after it's installed or the rear most part of the pinion.

 

ok ill give it a look ,i still have the damn bearings on, gott afind someone to press them off for me, so i havent even begun to start this project, other than the rear being off and disassembled.

I read that the differential cover gasket is supposed to have two holes in it....other than the bolt hole si mean. the two holes that are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. My gasket does not have these holes. so is this ok or does the gasket definatly have to have these two holes in it?

 

the holes or lack of holes shouldn't be a problem, there's nothing on the rear cover to mate them to anyway. if you're reusing the same pinion just measure it, even if you're not it'll be close enough to give you an idea where to start from.

 

I read a Q&A column in a magazine a few years back that addressed the gasket holes. Basically they don't make a difference. The guy answering the quesation contacted a garage that did fleet work for the state police. Obviously they dealt with cars that were driven many miles and very hard. They said that they hadn't noticed any difference in rear end life expectancy with or without the holes. There was some info circulating back then that the holes were to direct gear oil to something, but this has been dismissed as either BS or not making any real difference.

Ede, I'm trying to get this pinion depth deal square in my head. Basically you bolt a piece of aluminum across the carrier opening using the cap bolt holes. This is with the pinion installed. Then you take a reading with a depth mic from the backside of the plate to the head of the pinion. Subtract the thickness of the plate, and this gives you your pinion depth. Then you just figure the shim needed to achieve the number engraved on the gearset. Do I have that right?

 

yep tko you have it, since my piece of aluminum is .5 thick my measurements come out .5 too much, subtract .5 and i have the actual distance. if i was going to have to buy the material i'd call mc master carr and get a piece of 1018 steel. cut to length, radius the ends near the bolt holes ,drill 2 holes and you're all set to do 10 and 12 bolt rears, maybe more.

 

Cool. Especially since the cheapest pinion depth tool I've ever seen is $100. Thanks for the info ede.

 

most depth mics are 100+ too....and if you do alot of rears id vote on the real pinion depth tool....im just gonna use edes idea of slapping a piece of metal across the carrier bolt holes and using a telescopic guage lock the T's then pull it out and measure with a digital mic.

harbor has digi mics on sale this week for 20 dollars! :O

 

i've never seen or used a pinion setting tool. i can't think it'd be any advantage over a depth mic, plus i have depth mics

 

The thing to do with precision measuring stuff is look for bank auctions at manufcturing plants. They sell all that stuff for pennies on the dollar. I'm still kicking myself for not buying that CAD/CAM Bridgeport muti-axis milling machine. It went for $3,500. I found out later it was worth over $30,000!

 

damn i'd pay 3500 for a mill let alone nc/cnc. mill is about only thing i'm missing. cousin not far from me has one and i have one in my lab at work so it's not like i don't have one to use. i've bought all kinds of tools and equipment used. garage sales, flea markets, e bay, and car shows all have pleanty to pick from.

 

ok...are there any shims between the carrier and the bearing? i know there are two between the rear end and the bearing that resemble 1/2 inch spacers more than shims..

i ask because i need to know if i need to press the bearings off both carriers to get to to shims, or if there arent any and all i need are the bearings pressed off of the posi carrier.

i have tried 20 different ways to try to get the bearings off.....there is seriously no way.....other than cutting them off.....which i WOULD do if i didnt need the old bearings to use as a guide to shim by --as tko stated, hone the old out...slip fit--

BAH.....i swear...if i had 99 bucks id buy a damn press