I have the t-5 in my 89 gta and i've been having some trouble with it. I live in Finland and almost all cars here are manual so i definately know how to use one so that's not the problem the problem is that it "complains" sometimes when "racing" around town. The operation isn't smooth, the gears will not go in easily, atleast not as easily as i feel they should or du on other cars. It's not REAL BAD but It should definately be smoother and/or faster. But worst is reverse... it often makes a bad grinding metal noise, even when first shifting to a forward gear while standing still.

I think this pic is of a ford t-5 model but if at all possible please explain exactly what parts could be the cause of this all. I'm not at all familiar with transmission operation, nor am I with the names of parts, other than the ones i see in the pic so feel free to "fill it in"

So do i need to throw the old one out completely or what?

 

The part that's responsible isn't in the pic.

It's the clutch.

Hard shifting, grinding, etc. are almost always cause by a clutch that doesn't disengage properly, for whatever reason. Very often, it's caused by the pilot bearing.

 

Okay. Could the cause of this kind of clutch trouble be caused by a worn transmission mount? If i replace it would the damage be permanent? or until i replaced the clutch parts?

 

Unlikely, especially with the hydraulic clutch in a 3rd gen T5 car. Most likely the problem is with the master/slave or the clutch itself.

If the car has a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch in it I'd say this is normal, because they never seem to disengage fully. If not, then the disc may be worn out, in which case just replace it with a new assembly (disc, pressure plate, TO bearing, and pilot bearing).

Check the fluid level in the master and look to see if you've got any leaks anywhere in the hydraulic hoses, or if the area where the slave goes in to the bellhousing is wet. This could indicate a possible problem with the hydraulic system.

BTW, shift into 2nd gear, then reverse. This will line up the reverse gear in the trans and it will go right in. Every manual I've ever had needed some kind of pattern like that, except the T56 because it actually has a synchronized reverse gear. No other trans I've ever seen does, and this is why it grinds. It's like trying to downshift into 1st gear in an old car that didn't have a synchronized 1st gear. You've got to double clutch it, and even then it still might grind if you don't match the engine speed to the driveline speed.

 

Yes but the mount is in pretty bad shape and causes the whole trans to move from side to side when I accelerate. I don't drive at all now because of this, not until i get it replaced.
how can u tell if it has a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch in it? and what is that anyway? It's all stock from what i know.
I remember from looking under the car at the mechanics when checking the mount there is som liquid around some "connection". but don't know wether it was between engineblock and clutch or transmission and clutch. If anyone has a pic that would help me remember.

 

Centerforce is a manufacturer; Dual Friction is the trade name of one of their top-of-the-line products.

I'm on my 3rd Centerforce Dual Friction clutch at the moment. I've run them for around 120k miles in this car so far. Not a hint of whatever this problem everybody talks about that they "all" have. I wouldn't place blame automatically on the brand and model of clutch, even if that's what it is.

The trans mount won't cause the clutch to fail to work right; but it will cause other bad things to happen. You need to fix it right away.

As I said, sounds to me like a worn pilot bearing or bushing.

 

RB, not everyone that runs a Dual Friction seems to have this problem, but I've witnessed it first hand on some cars. I got curious with the first car that came in complaining that "something is wrong with the trans". I drove the car, and noted abnormally high shift effort, and a tendancy to grind gears, especially when downshifting. I pulled the trans and put it on the bench. Shifting it on the bench it had excellent shift effort and was very smooth. That got me thinking that the clutch was worn out. I told the customer this, and he said "Oh that's not possible I just had a brand new Centerforce Dual Friction clutch installed a month ago". Curious I pulled the disc and pressure plate off the engine. Very little wear was evident. For point of comparision I went down to GM and grabbed a stock clutch and pressure plate. I compared the discs side by side and noticed that the Centerforce disc was significantly thicker than the stock disc. I mic'd them just to be sure and found the Centerforce disc was much thicker. I concluded that the disc being thicker wouldn't allow the throwout bearing to fully disengage the disc from the pressure plate, even with your foot on the floor. There just wasn't enough travel, and you can't adjust the slave cylinder like you can a mechanical linkage, which is why I've used Centerforce Dual Friction cluthces for years on old musclecars with zero complaints. After talking it over with the customer I purchased a replacement clutch from S.P.E.C. after talking to their tech department and verifying the disc thickness. When the car was back together the shift effort was back to stock.

This led me to use S.P.E.C. exclusively on LT1, LS1, and 3rd gen cars that come through my shop. Since that initial experience I've had five other cars come through with the exact same problem, and the fix every time was to swap out the Centerforce for a S.P.E.C.

Obviously this problem doesn't affect every car with a Centerforce or they wouldn't be in business anymore. I think there are a handful of cars out there that wound up on the tigh end of the tolerance stack up that just don't work well with the Centerforce setup. I just won't use them on hydraulically actuated cars anymore to save myself the headache. It's also why when someone says high shift effort I always ask them up front what clutch is in the car.

I probably shouldn't make a blanket statement like that though, and I'm not trying to bad mouth Centerforce. My brothers 5.0 has a DF, I ran one in my Nova SS, and never had anything but good luck. I've just reaped the whirlwind of other people's misfortune when it comes to DFs and hydraulic clutch cars.

 

rb your using a hydraulic setup correct? so am i, along with a centerforce dual friction, i dont have any shifting or releasing problems....

 

Yup. I changed my car over from the crappy Stone Age linkage to hydraulics back in about 86 or so; first time I had to do anything to the clutch in fact. I have a T-56 in it now, with a CF DF clutch and of course the T-56's matching hydraulics from GM.

I have no insight into whatever problems those clutches may have in other people's cars; I had one in this car for about 35,000 miles, and I changed it just because I was changing the motor, and sold it, and as far as I know it's still working; I put in another, and ran it until I put in the T-56, and it was still perfect then; and the T-56 one I have now is still almost brand-new, maybe 6000 miles. All of them have been flawless. But then, every single brand-name new clutch I've ever installed, has been that way; I can think off the top of my head of ones from Ram, Zoom, Hayes, McLeod, and B-W, besides CF, that I've used in the last few decades and got excellent results out of. I think it has something to do with knowing how to install them right. Like, whatever it is that people do to them wrong during installation, ruins them for all time. Use the bolts to pull the trans up to the BH maybe? I don't know.

 

What other bad things could it cause?? What exactly is pilot bearing and bushing? A pic would help immensly coz i'm not too familiar with this.

 

There already is a pic.... the one I posted, is the back end of a crankshaft, with a pilot bearing in it.

 

RB, you may well be right about people not installing the Centerforce Dual Friction clutches correctly. I've never installed one in one of these cars personally. I've just been contacted to fix the problem after the fact. The people that have come to me have been refered by a friend that works at a local shop, who knows I know my way around T5 and T56 trannys. They get refered to me because they think they've got a problem with their transmission, which turns out not to be the case. Unlike a lot of less honest shops I actually investiagte the problem without just saying "O, the trans needs a rebuild, that'll be $1,000."

Investigating the problem is what led me to discover the difference in disc thickness. It is possible that this doesn't make any actual difference, and the problem is that the pressure plate was damaged during a ham fisted installation. However, I have noticed on mechanical linkage cars that the Centerforce clutches do seem to require a substantially different adjustment of the linkage to operate correctly. Those two facts in concert is what led me to believe that the clutch disc is too thick to work correctly on a hydraulic linkage car. I freely admit that this conclusion may not be 100% correct, but I'm no longer willing to take the chance of installing a product that may not work right. Also, I've been very satisfied with the customer service and tech support I've had from S.P.E.C. I also feel that the Centerforce clutches are excessively expensive now, in part just because of the name recognition. All just my $0.02 worth, but then that's what 3rd gen's all about isn't it?