Did anyone see this article?

I wonder if the Ford T5 internals they're talking about would fit in one of ours?

 

Many of the ford internals will fit our t5's. Can you add alink to the article? Kinda surprised that a t5 is getting a write up in a mag.

 

It's not on their site. They normally run several months behind in posting articles on their website; it'd cut into magazine sales.

 

I just skimmed through that article a couple of days ago. Most of the forward gears in our trannys will interchange with the ford units as long as it's the ford trans with the 2.95 ratio first gear. I think the heavy duty 5th gear sets interchange as well. Unfortunately, the input shafts won't interchange though. If they did, we could buy the whole gear upgrade kit for ours. I emailed astro performance not long ago, and they claim they're working on the upgraded gearset for the f-body trannys as we speak. I can only hope that they really are doing just that. The one interesting thing I saw in that article was the one paragraph where they stated that the world class f-body V8 trannys are supposedly just as strong as the ford units.

 

even with stronger gears you will still have a weak stock case. if your putting down any sort of power its not even worth sticking with the stick t5, your better off upgrading to a aftermarket 5 speed or a t56.

 

I hear ya loud and clear man. I'm seriously debating picking up a 3rd gen style TKO-500 from a guy I know locally.

 

Yeah, I caught that too; it's what got me thinking along these lines.

For me, upgrading the T5 would be smarter than a TKO500/600 or T56 swap. I already have a ripper shifter and a balanced aluminum driveshaft, so I'd save at least several hundred bucks right there over swapping trannys.

I'm going to call the guy they reference in the article tomorrow. On his website, he's offering the rebuilt and upgraded Ford 3.35 1st gear T5s for 999.00 (He also lists an upgrade for the 2.95 gearsets which have the same ratios in every gear as my L03). Depending on how good those upgrades are, if he could do an F-body T5 for that or a few hundred more, it'd be a GREAT bargain.

T5 5 SPEED TRANSMISSIONS

I've also been looking at the G-Force upgrade. It looks like it'll take around 2,000.00 to have them rebuild the transmission for me, but they claim it'll be good to 400+lb/ft torque. That would still be cheaper than going to a TKO or a T-56, especially since I'd have to change rearend ratios with the T56.

G-Force Transmissions and Long Shifters

 

I've been doing some further reading. Apparently, you CAN run the upgraded gearsets for the ford T5's, you just use the GM input shaft and switch to the Ford yoke on the driveshaft.

 

I've been talking with a guy who road races T5s behind a 450+hp small block. According to him, the problem isn't the case nearly so much as is the rear bearing retainer. He said this fixes it:

T5 5 Speed - Parts - Gears - Transmissions

Honestly, if the inherent flaws in a T5 could be corrected for under two grand, I think it'd be smarter to stay with one. By the time you buy all the adapters, crossmembers, new shifter and new/shortened driveshaft, you're looking at at least 3 grand to swap to a TKO or T56.

Yeah, some will argue you could get a used T56 from a Camaro or Firebird and save a lot of money, but the stock T-56 can't handle 400+lb/ft, either. While it's certainly stronger than the T5, stock LS1s break them all the time.

 

I still hope Astro Performance comes out with a gm gearset. The heavy duty one they sell for ford units is about $550. If they could offer a set for our trannys at that price, I'd be all over it. The price of the G-Force gearset is completely ludricrous in my opinion! You can buy a whole new Tremec TKO for that kind of money. The only part you couldn't reuse with a tremec swap would be the ripper shifter. I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to that. I just bought a brand new Hurst Billet Plus shifter for my T5 setup. You can still use your aluminum driveshaft, you'd just have to change the yoke to a 31 spline ford and use a conversion u-joint.

 

I have to correct myself on the price I quoted for that gearset from Astro Performance. It's actually $1095 on their ebay auctions. They also have the rear bearing/cluster support piece sean was talking about for $35 with free shipping. I'd probably still go with the one from medatronics though. Theirs is made from steel whereas the $35 ones are made of aluminum.

 

its traction and power shifting that kills these things

if your out at the track with 450+ or even like 350+ torque at the wheels and your lanchin the thing and getting traction it aint going to last very long, same thing if your power shifting

and you can get a whole t56 swap for under $1k if you look in the right places.

 

I think you should visit the vendor review board for info on T-5's.
You might be shocked

 

I swapped my 91 to a brand new TKO 500. Everything cost me $2300 from Forte's in Burlington, MA. He gives you the tranny, adpater plate to bolt it to the bell housing, relocation brackets for the cross member, c6 yoke, speed sensor adapter, and 3 qts of fluid.

If you even approaching 2 grand for a built up T5 just get a TKO. You wont regret it.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense.

I really don't see a need for a 6 speed, so a 5 speed is fine. The ratios on the T56-011 are essentially the same as ours, anyway, with a .80 5th gear thrown in. That wouldn't be useful for me, I'm fine with the ratios I have.

Were you able to use your existing driveshaft?

What shifter did you use, and does it mount further forward/rearward than the T5?

How about the crossmember brackets? I have Spohn weld-in subframes. I wonder if there'd be interference?

By "Forte's", do you mean 5speedtransmissions.com? I've been surfing their site after reading your post. The only thing I don't like are the ratios. My T5 with it's 2.95 1st gear and my 3.42 rear gear are exactly the combination I want. The TKO500 has a 3.27 1st gear, and the TKO600 has a 2.87 1st gear. I think the 3.27 might be too steep for street tires with the power I'll be making after my engine swap. 5th gear is problematic, too. I really like the .62 overdrive; The TKO500's is .68. I guess the TKO 600's .64 would be close enough, but then I'd lose on 1st gear. Since my new tires and wheels will already be taller (therefore cutting the gear ratio), I wonder if it would lose too much?

 

The super alloy gears built for the Ford will work in a GM T5. They are the 2.95 1st gear and accompanying other ratios. The input shaft is different, so I substitute a new stock input shaft in the GM super alloy transmissions. Input shafts rarely see failures in T5s. Typicaly 2nd and 3rd are the gears that go boom.

At $1095 that has to be a G-Force Street Synchronized kit. That's the list for the kit from G-Force, and per their non-compete clause all dealers must sell at their retail price.

 

Forte's is Forte's Parts Connection (781)-273-9900 - TREMEC DEALER, FACTORY FIVE COBRA PARTS, FORD RACING PARTS, FFR MKI and MKII, MUSTANG PARTS, TRANSMISSIONS, T-56, T-5, TKO, TR-3550
5speedtransmissions.com is just a distributor for them. I'm ordering directly from Forte's later this week, hopefully Wednesday as long as money clears bank ok. Purchasing the TKO600 and was quoted $2200 shipped for the parts I needed a few months ago, hoping it hasn't gone up any. I'm getting bare minimum as I allready have a T5 and the spohn heavy duty drive shaft so I don't need the slip yoke and a lot of other pieces that drive up the price.
I'm running a posi 3.73 rear so I'm expecting the 2.87 first gear to be right where I want it. I can't wait!

 

sorry to bring this back to the top but I wanted to try and clarify. Astro currently does sell the G force gear set but they also have there own high alloy gear set that is supposed to handle similar power at a similar cost to the G force. The difference is that they will be selling it with an output shaft upgrade as they feel this becomes the weak link. There is a car out there with these gears in it as a trial run and all looks good so far but I am not sure how much drag racing that car is doing. Their gear set is really not available yet. (talked to them last week)

 

Yeah, I kinda got the same response from them. I'm just hoping they're really working on this and not just blowing smoke up our asses. All these businesses don't manufacture stuff for our cars claiming there's just not a big enough market, but I think a lot of them would be surprised how many of us are out there. Besides, the only additional pieces they'd have to machine over the ford kits is just the input shaft and mainshaft. The rest of the gears work in either application. Summit and Jegs need to sit up and take more notice of this market too. I'm 35 years old now, and those guys are still pushing mostly the same crap they were when I was only 16! I do still own a 69 Camaro, but my 89 is almost 20 years old now, and it's still a PITA to find decent performance pieces for it. Okay, that's enough ranting for now. Lol.

 

I would like to introduce myself to Thirdgen.org members. I don't know how to go about answering some of your questions about our New Super T-5 Gear Kit, without being accused of Spamming. However, I am having an issue with the Advertising Department not getting back in touch with me. I would like to answer some of your questions in reference to this New Super T-5 Gear Kit we manufature, and state that it is definately not a G-Force Gear Kit. We offer G-Force Gear Kits, but the Super T-5 Gear Kit is based on the same principles as G-Force Kit, but is an Upgraded Version. But without getting in trouble for Advertising I would like to know if any of you know a better way of getting in touch with who I need to?

Thanks,
Tony Sarvis
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

Hi Tony. Thanks for the response! You can always contact the guys who run this site. I know there's a link on here somewhere. They can tell you how you can get a banner put up at the top of the site, just like Spohn, TDS, Hawks, etc. I'm also glad to hear your kit is not actually the G-Force one as they've been having quite a few complaints about their set in one of the posts here. I'm also hoping your price is a little more reasonable than theirs! I realize there isn't a huge market for third generation f-body five speeds, like the Mustangs, but this site is definitely the best one by far to spread the word on your T5 kits when they come available. Thanks again for the reply.

 

Pat,

Well I can't say our "Super T-5" is any more Reasonably Priced, but I can say our "Super T-5" Gear Kit has "Larger/Wider" 1st-4th Gears than Competitors! Both the Super T-5 and G-Force are made out of 9310 Alloy Steel. Both are "Drop-In" Replacement Gear Kits, for the 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro V8. The Gear Kits will not work in Earlier Cores due to the Synchronizer Sliders/Assemblies being set up for Brass Design Synchronizer Rings. They both also work with the Factory Output Shafts found in the 88-92 Camaro. However, G-Force will be offering a Upgraded 9310 Alloy Output Shaft, we just don't know when. This Upgraded Output Shaft will allow customers to run close to 500 Ft. Lbs. of Torque @ Flywheel through a Super T-5! However, the "Super T-5" is good for 400-425 Ft. Lbs. of Torque if mated with a Factory/OEM Output Shaft.

As for now we only have "Super T-5" Gear Kits for the 1985-95 Ford Mustang 5.0L. Upon receiving Samples from the Gear Vendor in December of 2005, we requested that we get 3 different length Input Shafts:

1.) 1985-93 Ford Mustang 5.0L
2.) 1994-95 Ford Mustang 5.0L
3.) 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro 305/350"

We received 1 Input for the Camaro, which we installed into a Customers Core from North Carolina. The Customer's vehicle is a 1991 Camaro with a 383 Stroker pushing 425HP @ Rear Wheels. The Car is equipped with Nitrous, which when "Sprayed" puts down 575HP @ Rear Wheels...close to 525 Ft. Lbs. of Torque. The customer owned a Tremec TKO-600 but hated the 2nd-3rd Gear Shift, along with Vibrations out of 5th Gear. He called us to see if we could offer any "Service" to help improve his brand New TKO-600. I told him there were very few Proprietary Modifications that could be performed. I proceeded in asking if he would like to be the "Test" for our Camaro Super T-5Gear Kit. He agreed, and sent his Core to us for us to install Gear Kit. The Gear Kit not only got rid of his Vibration issues, but also allowed him to Shift the T-5 alot "Smoother/Easier". It also allowed him to put more Power/Torque through the Drivetrain, because the T-5 is about 30 Lbs. Lighter than the TKO Series 5 Speeds. I will not rate the "Super T-5" at a Higher Rating than what has been stated above. You can see that the customer that did the Testing has more Power/Torque than what I state they will handle. The Transmission Torque/Horsepower Capabilities are determined by the Application.

I am not saying that the Super T-5 is the answer to everyones Manual Transmission "Woes". The Stock T-5 Casing has taken up to 500 Ft. Lbs. of Torque @ Flywheel. Once you get above this rating, it is a good idea to either upgrade to a Heavier Duty Case, or switch over to a Tremec TKO-600 Series 5 Speed. I know most like the T-56 6 Speed, but the stock T-56 is rated at around 200 Ft. Lbs. of Torque less than the TKO! Granted, we can build a T-56 up to support 800 Ft. Lbs. of Torque, but its not cheap! The "Super T-5" Gear Kit was produced to give customers an additional option for vehicles producing more Power/Torque than what the Factory/OEM T-5 supports, but not going through all of the modification of a Tremec TKO Swap.

As a conclusion we sent 5 Input Shafts from our "Super T-5" Gear Kits back up to the manufactuer for modification to be able to use in 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaros. I am expecting all back in 2 weeks.

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

G-Force has had 9310 mainshafts for GM applications for some time. I used one in a trans I built not too long ago. The key is having them available, and G-Force hasn't been that great about keeping inventory in stock over the last year or two.

 

TKOPerformance,

Your correct in stating that. We use to be able to get parts out of G-Force on a Regular Basis. But, "Back-Orders" have been plaguing them. And for me, adding the fact that I have a Gear Kit that is in somewhat "Competition" with theirs, doesn't necessarily help us get parts as quickly as others! We still purchase components to build G-Force T-5's along with several T-56 6 Speed Components from them. Its just the T-5 stuff has not been "flowing" through as quickly as it used to.

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

-
What good are stronger gears in a trans that is broken because of case flex? I realize it's partially shaft flex, meaning the stronger shafts would be of help, but it's still very easy to over-power the case. There needs to be a case with a steel/billet "bulkhead" where the tail-shaft bolts up(the back of the case), thus solidly locating the cluster and mainshaft support bearings. - What do the T5 gurus think about this?

- As for those wanting/running a TKO, I still feel a manual that can't be power shifted is worthless(imo).....If you have to clutch or lift off the throttle you are effectively slowing down.

 

Stronger gears will still improve trans strength, even with case flex. Here's why:

With any helical gearset, those where the teeth are cut at an angle other than straight up, there is always going to be an inhernent tendancy for the gears to try and push themselves apart. This effect can be overcome to an extent by using a very low helix angle, which was the case with the M22 Muncie. The problem is that the lower the angle the more noise the gearset makes, and this is what earned the M22 the name Rockcrusher, because it would whine constantly in operation. If you listen to baja trucks or early rally cars you will hear a shrill whine as they take off. Most people think this is the turbo, but you will hear it even on V8 trucks that don't use a turbo. That's the straight cut gears in the trans that you're hearing. Obviously this would be unacceptable in a streetgoing vehicle. The solution then, is to build a trans that is strong enough with a helical gearset, which is where the T56 really shines. It doesn't suffer from case flex. The gears are cut at a fairly high helix angle, and the trans is silent in operation, but still strong enough to take 450+ lbs/ft. stock.

So what can you do for a trans that has a known case flex problem? One of two things. Either build a straight cut gearset, which G-Force also offers coupled with dog ring shifting, or make the gears out of really strong alloy. By making the gears out of really strong alloy they will tolerate a lot more misalignment when the case flexes without breaking. Effectively, the reason that the gears break is that when the case flexes the shafts are allowed to move apart, the gear teeth move out of proper mesh, and the leverage on the sections of teeth that were not designed to withstand leverage cause the teeth to break right off the gear hub. If the alloy is strong it can tolerate a lot more of this than the stock gearset. This is the thinking behind G-Force's street synchronized kit. Additionally, if possible given the confines of the stock case, you can make the gears wider to spread the load over a wider surface area. G-Force does this as well.

Under a tremendous amount of power the mainshaft can also flex, or even fail at the splines. GM yokes are for 27 spline shafts, which is about 15% weaker than a 30 spline shaft like the ones used in a Viper T56. If you make the mainshaft from a higher grade material like 9310 or 4340 you can eliminate most if not all of this flex, and also becasue the material is stronger the spline count difference is no longer that important.

Also, I'm unclear as to why people claim that the Tremec transmissions cannot be prowershifted. I can't speak for the TKO, but the 3350 can certainly be powershifted, and very effectively. A close friend runs one in his '95 Cobra, and I've personally driven the car and powershifted in on the 1/2 and 2/3 shifts. I will say that the trans is a lot notchier than the stock T5, and there is some gear whine as well, that was not present with the stock T5. However, it has never broken, also unlike the stock T5, which we tore down three times to fix broken 2nd and 3rd gears. Tremec seems to have paid little or no attention to shift smoothness or noise, which are high priorities on OEM transmissions that must meet he discriminating tastes of the average Joe and Jane. The Tremecs are designed as a race trans, and concessions were made only to strength, and they reflect this in operation. You're never going to get the best of both worlds. If you want a trans that can handle massive power and still shifts smoothly and is dead quiet then you need a T56. It's the only trans I've found so far that meets this criteria.

 

Question, what ratio of 5th gear's do you run? I see G-Force offers a .59 overdrive, that would work nice with me since I drive an hour to work and then back again everyday.

I'd be interested in posible being another test car for one of them 5 new kit's. It would be hooked to a mild 412ci AFR comp port Headed HSR set-up.

 

If we use the Factory/OEM 5th Gear Kit, the Final Overdrive Ratio = 0.59%. However, we have an Optional Upgraded .79% Overdrive Available. It is made of 9310 Alloy Steel, and works out to have a Final Overdrive Ratio of .79% when used with a 2.95 1st Gear Ratio Gear Kit.

We have already done the testing on the "Super T-5" Gear Kit. And within a couple of weeks we'll have 5 Kits available for the 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro. Actually, 2 of the 5 are sold, so we'll actually have 3 Extra.

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

I thought the factory 5th gear rations were .63 or .68, and the custom ratio offered by G-Force was .59. Am I wrong?

 

The Factory/OEM Overdrive Ratio in a 2.95 1st Ratio T-5 is a .63%. The .68% is used in the 3.35 1st Ratio T-5 found in the 1985-95 Ford Mustang 5.0L. When you use the Super T-5 or G-Force T-5 1st-4th Gear Kit with the Factory/OEM Overdrive from the Mustang 5.0L, the Ratio or Final Overdrive changes to a .59%.

Now I do have to correct myself, in stating the incorrect 5th Overdrive Ratio in a previous post. I build more Mustang T-5's so please bare with me. To use the Factory/OEM 5th Ratio in a 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro V8 (0.63%) with our Super T-5 1st-4th Gear Kit would give you a 0.637%, or 0.64%. So basically almost duplicate Overdrive as what comes in the Factory 88-92 Camaro/Firebirds.

G-Force does not make a .59%. They do make a .75%, and a .89%. We offer a .79% as an optional Road Race Overdrive for both Ford (28 Spline) & GM (27 Spline) Output Shafts.

Sorry to confuse anyone with what was stated earlier. I had to physically pull a Super T-5 Gear Kit off the shelf to do Caculation!

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

Tony,

I believe the TPI F-bodies had a 2.95 1st gear and a .68 5th.

Also, from the G-Force website:

"Our T-5 kits are currently available with the preferred 2.94, 1.94, 1.34, 1.00 ratios in gears 1 thru 4, and because most performance enthusiasts run a relatively steep rear gear, our synchronized kit utilizes a .59 overdrive. This is slightly taller than the stock .68 or .63 ratio and allows the engine to turn less RPM at cruising speed."

I think that's what Hawk was talking about. A .63 OD would yield a final drive ratio of 2.15:1 with 3.42 gears. A .59 OD would yield a final drive ratio of 2.02:1. He's looking for the few hundred less rpm he'd pull on that long commute.

 

Everything I've ever read states that the two different factory ratios for fifth gear are .63 and .73. The TBI cars got the .63 whereas the TPI cars got the .73 because it pulls better without such a big rpm drop from fourth gear. The factory rpo codes for these were M39 for the .63 and MK6 for .73. For those who actually care, the code for the 6 cylinder T5's is MB1. Oh yeah, fifth gear on the 6 cylinders is .76.

 

Actually for GM cars there were three 5th gear ratios. The .63 and the .73 are the common ones, but 1LE cars got an ultra rare .80 ratio. I have a slightly damaged set left over from a 1LE trans that I converteted to a .63 for better highway cruise RPM. The .80 gears are NLA from Tremec.

 

Medatronics corp. or 5 speeds.com sells the .80 gear set. They call it the Sebring overdrive set. Tony at Astro Perf. also offers the .80 gears. They run about $200. With the Sebring set, you have to grind out the inside of the tailshaft housing slightly to clear them since they're quite a bit beefier than the stock gear set. These gears are great for road racing applications, but for us street cruisers the .63 and .73 are better suited. That's interesting though. I never knew the 1LE cars got that ratio from the factory.

 

Yeah, the roadrace guys love the .80s. When I could get them new from Borg/Warner I used to sell quite a few of them.

 

Pat Hall,

Chevrolet Super T-5 Input Shafts are in. These will fit all 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro V8 T-5 Transmissions.

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

-Picture Shows 1st-3rd M/S Gears of Super T-5 Gear Kit-

-Picture shows Input Shaft/4th Gear of Super T-5 Gear Kit-

-Picture shows Cluster Gear of Super T-5 Gear Kit-

-Assembled 1st-4th Super T-5 Gear Kit-

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

 

So this set-up should have no problem being power shifted and being hit hard at the dragstrip with slicks?

 

89gta383,

The Super T-5 Gear Kit retains the Factory/OEM Synchronizer Rings. So the Shifting Characteristics would be no different from that of the Stock T-5 in the 1988-92 Chevrolet Camaro. However, I would recommend upgrading the Output Shaft to a 9310 Alloy Steel if using Slicks.

Thanks,
Tony

 

The key to that statement is the stock synchronizer system. You should be able to powershift this setup if you can powershift a stock T5. The gear breakage often assosciated with powershifting should be mitigated by the stronger alloy, and better gear design. Synchronizer life will still be short, and you will risk damaging engagement teeth on the gears and damaging the sliding sleeves when powershifting. That's life with a trans that you beat the snot out of. Also you'd better be running a Pro 5.0 or similar shifter with stops or start stocking up on spare shift forks now.