ok this is lengthly and theres more to it than meets the eye but to make a long story short....
My car is 1983 camaro. came with automatic. I did the whole MANUAL TRANNY SWAP thing thats suppose to be soooo easy...
Bought NEW:
Pilot bearing, pressure plate, 11" clutch plate, Lakewood Bellhousing for 4-speed with the angeled clutchfork, throwout bearing, clutch linkage, block plate, flywheel, hurst super comp plus shifter (with install kit), 4-speed Muncie tranny rebuilt, basically everything i needed in case i forgot to mention somthing....

ON GOING PROBLEM SINCE BEGINNING:
NOT ENOUGH THROW TO Disengage the CLUTCH plate.
TRIED: Changing Z-bar to stock and transam Z-bar... redilling hole to change pivot point, changing Pedal linkage pivot point, changing clutch fork pivot ball point, adding tons of pre-load on the throwout bearing... NOTHING WORKS.

I'm DEFINETELLY getting enough throw, I get soo much throw the clutch pedal almost takes 2 feet to push, and the CLUTCHFORK hits the BELLHOUSING before the pedal even hits the floor!!!!!

IT seems to me there is somthing wrong with the pressure plate.... is an 11" clutch disk working on these 3rd gen cars? the bellhousing is lakewoods specialty for a 4-speed tranny and seems fine. I'm getting totally enough throw, but I'm thinking pressure plate is wrong size or bad.

PLEASE tell me what kind of pressure plate should I be using.. and what clutch plate.. these dont seem correct.

When i Try to put the tranny in reverse it GRINDS but i can force it into reverse and the car doesnt pull or anything... Same thing with first i can get it into first when the car is ROLLING but not when sitting still... i have to FORCE it in, and i know thats bad for the tranny... its what blew my old one up.

ANY info on this kind of swap would be usefull... THANKS in advance for insight, Ive been messing with this for 4 months now without many results...

Found out today that with a 1/4 pedal i get the same amount of disengagement as with a full pedal of clutch... seems like the pressure plate isnt responding corectly... the throwout bearing is moving ALOT the more pedal you give the further it moves but no matter WHERE it is, I get the same amount of clutch disengagement.

I DONT think its the tranny now, cause when it IS in gear everything seems to work fine, no slippage and the car runs REAL sweet, but getting it into gear is a Bitc*... still think its the pressure plate. no telling. Anyone know the measurements of a stock pressure plate and a stock clutch on these camaros from the factory? Yes i know they are all 5 speed stuff but maybe it will give me some clues...

Im assuming you got the adjustable clutch fork pivot ball with it.. so how did you adjust that? do you think it could be maybe too far away?

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FloridaRacer.com

What kind of pilot bearing or bushing did you use?

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

I used the BRass Pilot bearing, i tried the roller pilot bearing but the tranny would NOT go into it all the way so i removed it and when i removed it the tool i used crushed it up so i had to use the old brass one. As for the pivot ball, it is NON adjustable in this bell housing, it kinda snaps into place... but then again im not the one that put it in my friend knows all about this stuff hes the one who helped me get everything together.

Today we are removeing the tranny and checking out whats going on with it. we will buy a stock pressure plate from pep boys and check its dimensions then return it and see if my pressure plate is BAD or WRONG. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the throw of it now, since everything matches....

Ill let you know what happens...

Blah change in plans... My friend is unable to get off work soon so we are goina have to do it later...

Until then.. I'm tryin to think what it could be... I thought MAYBE a warped clutch could cause this? but no, then it wouldnt be O.K. while driving? I don't know for sure, but somthing isnt right.

ANYONE have the Phone number for HAYES... I have the part num. for my pressure plate and clutch I have, but i need to call them and ask them if I'm using the right ones. they should be able to tell me since I know the application im using them in.
Anyone? Suggestions?

Hays is part of MrGasket corp.
www.mrgasket.com

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FloridaRacer.com

yeah thanks i tracked it down already LOL you came in like 1 hour short heeh. no matters, im goina call em' an see what they say. i emailed em too... see if they respond sooner than i call.

My stock 83 Z used a 10.4 inch clutch disk and pressure plate. If you look in manuals you will see that this is the stock size for that year. I even used a 10.4 inch clutch when I put my muncie in my 83.

The pilot bushing or bearing is responsible for alot of supposed clutch failure-to-release complaints. If it fits the trans shaft too tight, it will produce the same results as the clutch not releasing; i.e., even with the pedal all the way down, there's still some degree of coupling between the engine and trans.

I've had just about every brand of clutch there is at one time or another; I have a CF DF now, I can remember a Hays, some Rams, a McLeod, a Lakewood, some B-Ws, and I'm sure there were others. I have yet to ever see a new clutch that was "improperly" made, from any of them, in my (ahem) decades of motor activities. Every one has worked fine. I've never had to use any funky adjustable pivot ball setup, never altered anything in any way, ever, when using a stock dimension clutch in a stock dimension bell housing. If the clutch is installed properly, then for all practical purposes, it has no choice but to work.

There's no reason that the stock bell housing for one of these cars would not have worked for you, except that you would have been stuck with the 10.4" clutch. The various transmissions all have the same bolt pattern and clutch gear length. The flywheels all have the same thickness (within .050" or so) from the crank flange to the clutch surface. The 11" and 10.4" discs are the same thickness, the diaphragms are the same height, everything is the same between the 2 clutches (assuming you have the right splines of course) except their diameter.

I notice you mentioned you used the block plate; sometimes that causes problems, because it moves the BH rearward, away from the flywheel, which makes a longer throwout bearing hecessary; it should need lengthning by the same amount as the thickness of the motor plate, or a spacer of that height would need to be installed behind the flywheel, or a thicker flywheel should be installed. That is not something the manufacturer of any of the parts has any control over: they assume that the installer has enough mechanical savvy to know that, and to choose the parts accordingly.

Just out of curiosity, how did you deal with the rotated trans? Or did that BH mount the trans straight up? Which Muncie have you got? That is, which clutch splines, which driveshaft yoke, and which countershaft diameter (15/16" or 1"), and which gearset (you can tell that by how many grooves are cut through the input splines)? Is it a Muncie, or is it really a Warner T-10? You can tell by the cover shape: the Warner's cover has a sort of rounded bottom, the Muncie's is square, with some of the bolts within the area of the cover so to speak, and some going through "tabs" outside the main mass of the cover.

You really should have switched over to the hydraulic system. It's about 10,000 times better. I changed over my 83, I love it.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

out of curiousity, what makes the hydraulic system so much better?

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FloridaRacer.com

OKOK heres the break down.
Muncie 4-speed, i can tell because its aluminum, and no other tranny comes in aluminum. Its a 21-spline shaft. About the throwout bearing, a longer one is necessary only if your not getting enough throw correct? Im geting enough throw, im sure of it after all this.
The pilot bearing deal sound like a winner, Although i never said the CLUTCH was bad, only the pressure plat could be. I've talked to a few people they say this could definetelly be the problem.
As for the bellhousing, it is specifically made for ThirdGen camaros with 4-speeds, since a 5 speed bellhousing will not harbor a 4-speed, (bolt pattern) and drilling and tapping one FOR a 4 speed will not hold that much torque ( Im running over 400+ ft. lbs. )
Hydroulic croosed my mind but I didnt realize it was an option when i started this. its too late now. My friend has a Hydroulic throwout bearing. You can push the clutch with your FINGER its sooo nice. I want one, when i can afford it. I've already spent over $2500.00 on all this bullshi* for this car Im so sick of it not working. The clutch disc i used it 11" and I'm not sure about the pressure plate. I had the same problem with both pressure plates i Tried so maybe just maybe its the pilot bearing, the only thing I HAVNT changed on the entire car so far. Unbeleivable.

OK here's the real deal. Obviously you have alot of misinformation going on.

Both Muncies and Warners are aluminum for the most part. Saginaw is cast iron. A very few Warners are cast iron; I've never had or even seen one, all of the 20 or 30 I've had or built for people at different times were aluminum, but among all of us 4-speed people, that was the case we were looking for. My late little brother built an iron one for somebody once so I have on good authority that they exist. Ext hsg is still aluminum in both trans. Most Muncies use the small driveshaft splines like T-350 or 700; Warners are about evenly split between the 350 output spline and the 400 one. Most of either brand that have the 28-spine input use the big output, but it's possible to mix-and-match the clutch gear regardless of the spline on the mainshaft. Look at the cover like I described, what you think you know about the 2 is wrong.

The pressure plate IS the clutch. The other (thin) thing is just the disc.

Throwout bearings are the same for mechanical and hydraulic systems in these cars. The differences are all outside the bell housing, not inside.

5-speed and 4-speed transmissions for GM have the same bolt pattern on the BH. They directly interchange at that point. Of course, since it's a F-car, the trans (and the shifter, and the mount pad on the ext hsg) would have to be rotated if the BH is a stock configuration; but the bolt pattern itself is the same.

Torque at these levels is irrelevant.The BH for a 60s 396 or 427 is about the same thickness as the stock one for these cars. Right now I have about 140,000 miles (hard miles, I assure you) on a stock BH for one of these cars, behind a roller 400 with more than any wimpy 400 ft-lbs of torque.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but it sounds like you kind of went from Chicago to St. Louis by way of LA then NY then Seattle then Dallas on this deal. Apparently you have gotten some bad advice from people who lack BTDT. What you really need to do is take all the stuff you've got and lay it out carefully right beside the stock stuff, you'll see that what you've been told does not square with reality.

The hydraulic system is superior because there's no friction in the master and slave cylinders, as opposed to all the binding that occurs in a mechanical system. Also, a mechanical setup actually pushes the body and the "frame" apart; you can end up with a fair amount of lost motion that way. A hydraulic system doesn't do that. I've seen cars (frame cars, not unibodies) with mech clutches where the body actually moved as much as ½" forward when the clutch was pushed; keep in mind the "Z bar" has one end attached to the body, and it's pushing the clutch fork rearwards, so if the body bushings (in a A-car for example) are loose, the body will move forward on the frame while the clutch fork sits still. I don't know how much a F body will flex, but I do know that when I changed my 83 from mech to hyd, it was like night and day as far as how easy the car is to drive, without giving up anything as far as performance.

Another way of dealing with the motor plate situation is to use a spacer between the flywheel and crank. I hate doing that personally, but I know of many who have dealt with the situation that way with success. Think about what happens when you use a motor plate: the BH is spaced back by that much, but the clutch fork is attached to the BH while the clutch is bolted to the flywheel which is bolted to the crank, so as the BH is spaced rearwards, the fork moves farther and farther from the clutch; either you have to use a taller throwout to take up that space, or you have to move the flywheel and clutch rearwards, or you have to get into the special funky tall pivot ***** for the fork. Problem with the crank spacer solution is, motor plates are usually thick enough that if you use a spacer at the crank, it has to be so thick that the flywheel doesn't go onto the crank far enough to meet the centering part.

Long story short: check the pilot bearing / bushing first, then look for lost motion between the pedal and the fork, then look at the BH heoight versus stock, and see if your throwout comes up short. I'd almost be willing to bet a paycheck that there's nothing wrong with the clutch itself.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

I won't Argue but I know most of what I've said is true. It is definetelly a Muncie, regardless of aluminum or not, of that I'm sure. As for Hydroulic, The throwout bearing has to be changed if you use a master cylinder and no slave cylinder. The throwout Bearing itself IS HYDROULIC. I've called Jegs to order one, It is $270.00. The hydroulic setup that came on these cars is a Slave cylinder that acts as clutch linkage.

As for calling the clutch a pressure plate, As far as I now there is the CLUTCH PLATE and the PRESSURE PLATE not a clutch and a disk. Why call the clutch plate a disk and the pressure plate a clutch? Either way we are talking about the same thing so no argument there.

I already checked my clearances and everything, my THROW isnt the problem. The throwout bearing can be moved around depending on where I set the linkage. I can start the throw sooner by changing the pivot point on the Z-bar. I have 3 holes drilled in it, and 3 holes in the clutch PEDAL linkage to maximize my throw. By moving starting points around I can change the amount of throw I get. No matter what I do however, with only 1" of throw, or 5" of throw, I have the same result. Three transmission "Experts" have looked at this setup and decided it was either the pressure plate (clutch.. whatever), Clutch Disk, Or transmission Syncros acting up. I asked if the throwout bearing may need to be longer or the pilot bushing should be changed... they say the pilot bearing would not have this effect, when the clutch is pressed and the car is IN GEAR the car does not move AT ALL but you cannot shift, they say this is not a cause of a bad pilot bushing. The tranny was working fine with the stock Setup EXCEPT when the car got hot after a long drive I would have THIS PROBLEM... would not go into or out of gear, and would GRIND in reverse no matter what. ONLY WHEN THE CAR WAS HOT. SO i started replacing items. Pressure plat and Clutch disk were the first to go. Same problem. Replaced linkage, fork, Bellhousing, Z-bar, Pedal, etc... same problem. Everything is BRAND NEW in it. Only a malfunctioning part or Incorrect part is going to be the problem in this case.

Your information is helpfull, I'ts giving me ideas on how to solve this shi*. I really appreciate it ALOT. I'm not trying to me a smart *** know-it-all you definetelly know your shi*. We simply call different things differently lol. It's hard for you to tell what the problem is since you CANT SE the car, so I understand your throwing the most common instances at me. Trust me, this is not a simple case of mis-matched throwout bearing. It's been 4 months now, 3 tranny guys later, and a rebuilt transmission, and $2500.00 worth of stuff I've gone through, and my problem isnt getting any better. Maybe I got the 1 out of 50000 Pressure plates that is simply F*cked up.

I talked to HAYS and the guy on the phone said try a longer through out bearing. thats all he could come up with. so I went and bought a stock one to see if it looks different than the one im using now. we will see what happens from here on out.

If your fork is in the front of the opening
in the bellhousing (with the pushrod off),
the throwout bearing should be long enough
to disengage the pressure plate from the disc. Unless the spring side of the disc is
toward the crank! I recommend turning the driveshaft by hand to check for clutch
disengagement rather than driving the car,
but finding a willing asssistant to push the
clutch pedal on cue can be difficult.

the clutch is in correctly. the fork can be viewed. thats how they made the bellhousing. its lakewoods $309.00 bellhousing especially made for 4-speeds in a thirdgen with the angled heavy duty clutch fork. it doesnt help my problem at all however.

OK We pulled everything out again, and pulled off the pressure plate. everything looked OK so we decided...

Put 2 Grade 8 Washers in front of all (6x) of the bolts that hold the pressure plate on. This will drop the holding pressure down from 2950 Lbs. to about 2400 Lbs (1500 Lbs is stock) but will allow for full disengagment of the clutch disk.

We got everything all done and put back in 2 days later BUT Now the car wont start... Must have screwed up a wire somwhere. Battery will run the lights and turn the starter but the fuel pump and fuse box is getting no power. We will see....

Ok we rigged a new switch to start the car and a button for the starter, my key doesnt do anything anymore. BUT at least we got it running.

2 washers was tooo much, we are reduced to about 1000 Lbs of holding pressure. Today we are removing the tranny one last time to remove 1 washer and we should have it fixed.

King, interesting thread, couple of Q's, not using the torque arm? There is'nt a tailshaft or adapter kit for a Muncie, is there? Or are you using traction bars? I use a comp plus shifter for my Saginaw, is there an installation kit for a Muncie now? I'd like to change out the Saginaw for a M-20, but i need to find or make an installation kit. Hurst?

Why did you use a block plate, and why did'nt you use the factory BH? My '82 came with a universal B.O.P.C BH with the starter reliefs on both sides. Did yours? If you have this BH, it's woth at least $200 in the paper.

I had the same problem about 12 years ago with my '82. I was sold an incorrect pressure plate. If you set it on a bench it was about 2 inches high. Mine needed one that was about 3 inches high. I installed it and went through similar hell. Never noticed it was wrong when i turned in the core.

89GTA383, a genuine '83 with a four speed? I knew it was possible, from manuals and such, but i've never seen one. There must be very low numbers of them. Was yours a Saginaw or a T-10 originally.

The parts manuals and software for '82/'83 with four speeds are messed up because GM threw what ever they had laying around at them because the five speed was coming out and they did'nt care.

King, whats the latest?

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Kenney
82 Trans Am WS7 notchback
83 Trans Am WS6 T-tops
Painter @ Chevy dealer
GM junkie

OK SHIZNIT!!! 2 washers was TOO much but 1 washer was NOT ENOUGH. Now I'm in a real jam... If i use one washer i cant get the car into gear, but if I use 2 washers, I will burn up the clutch... WHY ME!!

To install My Muncie I needed to make my own Torque arm Bracket / Bushing, Make my own clutch linkage, and make my own pivot point for the clutch pedal. Everything else I bought Brand new. (except the tranny of course) The car was originally automatic. The hurst Competition Plus shifter comes without RODS so I bought the Install Kit for it which works on T-10's AND Muncie Trannys.

I'm about ready to sell the whole damn thing at this point, there is no releif in sight. This is the 8th time I've had to pull the Tranny (and driveshaft, bellhousing, pressure plate, clutchfork etc...) I'm getting to be a pro at it though. So depressing, 4 months and nothing has worked. Hays says the pressure plate and clutch are the right size however. Tough luck I guess.

Tuesday Im going to Drill a new pivot point on the Clutch Pedal to give it a longer throw, I't should be harder to press, but not WAY too hard since the pressure plate is Shimmed with 1 washer on each bolt. We will see.

On another note, I had a good laugh today after I pulled the bellhousing. Last night when we finished installing everything with 2 washers under the pressure plate we drove the car around. Since we removed power valves to tune it with the new cam we just installed, We assumed the car was acting funny and Idling really weird because it only had jets. It still ran good however, pulled O.K. for an Un-Tuned car. Turns out, After pulling the bellhousing, I look up from under the car and see 1 Spark Plug Wire is missing! We were driving on 7 Cylinders, and couldnt even tell that it lost power OR that it was Missing, the new CAM is soo Lopey you couldnt tell at all. I'm wondering if maybe what we considered Clutch Slippage was actually Power loss from only running on 7 cylinders.... ??? We will see.

Till next time!

Tommarow I am moving back up to 2 washers. My quest to find thinner washers has ended without luck, and I'm hoping 2 washers will not lead to clutch burn / warping. I guess ill find out in about... 2K miles.

Ok well for 1 you can definatly tell it is a muncie by looking at the side of it. The cover should have 7 bolt and the reverse is not on the cover just the 1-2 and 3-4. Also I have gone through some of the same problems you have. Mine was orginally a 6 cyc. manual 5 speed. I put a V-8 327 which requires a V-8 bell housing. I can assure you the the 4 speed and 5 speed bell housings are exactly the same as long as it is for a 3rd gen f-body. Other Chevy V-8s have different shape bell Housings. But anyways I got the v-8 lakewood bellhousing for hyd clutch f-bodys. I've had ha 4 speed muncie a 5 speed BW and now have a 6 speed richmond on the same bell housing. Also there is no difference in throw out bearings between hyd and mech. clutchs. My brother has an 83 mech. clucth and he has the same bearing as I do. Ok well I had some what the same problems as you did. I thought the V-6 clucth fork would work when I matched it up with my bell housing later on I found out it was a 1/4 too short. Also since I couldn't find a V-8 manual 3rd gen F-body in a junk yard I had no Idea what the clutch fork looked like so I just got one for a v-8 chevy which was angled. Later I figured out this one didn't work too well. So I went to NAPA auto parts and ordered on for a V-8 Trans Am and it was completely different. It was totally straight. It made all the difference. So the point is if you have an angled clutch fork you may have the wrong one. Try ordering one from NAPA or the dealer. Also if you got the pedals from a F-body don't change the pivot point until you at least try the new fork with everything in the stock config. (no washers) and see what happens. Well Good Luck et me know what happens and maybe I could possible help you some more..... Erik

Ack OK We've done ALOT since last time I made a message!!!

#1: Instead of 2 washers, we tried taking 2 washers, grounding one down to half size, then welding them together. (1.5 washers hehe) installed under pressure plate, hit clutch and BAMMOOOO drive shaft was turning with my hand!! go disengagment! go rigged washers!

#2: Found out that even with disengagment that good, it still wasnt moving the pressure plate far enough away from the flywheel to allow the clutch to suspend and stop moving all together. when the car got hot, it would get really hard to put it in gear. thats not good!! very bad! very bad!

#3: Changed pivot point on clutch pedal that I drilled about a month ago. now i get WAYYYY more disengagement than i NEED, but pedal is sooo hard to push it almost takes 2 feet. I wore out my foot shifting from first to second to third.. couldnt make it to forth! too hard! but that gave me an idea....

#4: (NOT DONE YET) Im pulling out the clutch pedal and my drill press. we are going to add a third pivot point right near the middle. this should even everything out!!! go rigged clutch pedal!!!

#5: on another 3 notes, my driveshaft is hitting my torque arm mount (dont ask, its rigged too) and I have no power valves in my carbeurator, and my power steering reservoir leaks completelly out once per day. Nice car.

WE WILL SEE!!!!

Ok now, I really dont want to pull out the tranny for a 9th time so I'm goina hold off on changing anything inside of it for now. The clutch fork Im using is the one Lakewood and hayes both say will (should have) work with my setup, it is almost perfectly straight and it is very heavy duty and made for racing. I need to change the pivot ball location however and screw it out some, but I dont want to pull the tranny... I need to figure that one out. As for the Clutch Pedal, I havnt drilled another new hole in it yet, still tryin to decide whats next. I think ill add the power valves and go from there.

Ok getting sick of this car... Real fast...
Heres a New Question. although it doesnt relate to trannys or drivetrain issues, maybe you can help anyways, I have bad luck with people somtimes...

Problem:
While Taking off car runs Great (no power valves but still...) car runs REal nice, but THEN i go to SHIFT to 2nd gear and...
BOOM BOOM BAAM BOOM!!! BACKFIRE CRACKLE BANG Shi* FuC* Dam*!!!!!!
Then i get into 2nd gear and it runs REAL NICE pulls really hard and nice then I goto shift into third and....
BOOM CRACKLE BAM CRACKLE FUC* SHI* DAM* BOOM BANG!!! BACKFIRE CITY!!! (sounds not nessecarilly in that order...)
OK so i figure its running WAY rich and I pull a plug and...

Get this, its like nothing I've ever seen in my life, Im running NGK race plugs (expensive ones) They seem to be COATED with some sort of BLACK POWDER it rubs off when you touch it easilly, almost SHAKES off when you smak the plug, underneath the plug looks like new once you wire brush it once or twice... Real strange, SOUNDS RICH TO ME I say, so...

I pull out the Jets, Im running 76's in the front and 77's in the rear with extended jets... NO power valves. I dropped the jet size down to 73's in front and 74's in rear and left the power valves out...

SAME PROBLEM. pulled a plug, got same result black power lookin crap, plugs are NOT WET not even KINDA wet they are really dry and the black crap is power-like. Im thinking drop the jets a little more and check again, does this sound like it might work? how much further down should I go on jets? 70's? Its a radical 355CiD with a muncie 4-speed. (read first post for engine specs) I've never had the car running with my new cam before so this isnt a sudden problem, it never ran right to begin with. sounds rich right? i hope so... Its a 600 Double pumper by the way. and at idle it idles fine (except for the crazy loud thumping of the engine, I was running on 7 cylinders one time and didnt even realize it!)

Ive never ran W/O the power valve but I would think that If your power valve was removed it would run rich.
Ah Im glad I traded my M22 for a nice TB400 .
SSC

the LOUD CRAZY BACKFIREING was cause by ONE simple thing:

Open headers. I found out why my car was so loud after all, my collector gasket had blown out and the screws holding the headers to the exaust pipe had come out and My headers were WIDE OPEN!!!

the cold air rushing in under DEcelleration was enough to cause serious backfire problems. I doubled up on Felpros this time and Torqued the hell outa them.

As for running rich it STILL IS I'm thinkin about putting back in some 6.5" HG Power valves and dropping jet size about 8 on the front and back. My carb takes 2 power valves cause it was converted for square jetting with an extra fuel bowl and crap... some race trick the guy i bought it from did to it.

On another note I bought some of those new IRIDIUM PLUGS by NGK they were $9.25 a peice and I have not used them yet. I plan on usin them when my carb is nice and jetted in. I'm also considering adding an O2 sensor so i can adjust the carb perfectly. Air/Fuel 14.7:1 for regular driving, 13.5:1 for high performance I am told.