I have some problems with my car..
I am not sure if it is something about my TPI system or the 700R4 transmission I got..

I have a 87 Camaro with 86K miles on it...Stock transmission.
I have just finished a swap from carburettor to TPI but some small adjustments is left to get the TPI going smooth.
There is a little bit rough idle but not any extreme idling.

Here is my problem: When I am driving the car in slow speeds in DRIVE.
The car starts shaking if it is going to shift from 3rd to 2nd...
If I put the car in about 30mph the car wants so shift down...When RPM reaches about 1000rpm the car is shaking a lot and rpm jumps from 900 to 1250...if I touch the gas pedal the car is driving fine again about 1500RPM.

As soon as the car is decelerating to 1000RPM and wants to shift down from 3rd to 2nd the shaking begins...This is the same when in 4th to the 3rd gear...

Any ideas of what this could be??...I also have to accord that I have seen some gear oil leaking the last days...But I don't think that have nothing to do with the weird shaking, because I have been under the car and it looks like the leak is coming just from the gasket...Not the TV cable..that area is dry..And around the pipes and everything..

Anyway, is here any ideas???

 

Sounds like the torque converter is not releasing from lockup. That's a comon problem as they get old. The clutch wears out and basically welds itself in the on position. Replacement is the only option.

 

Sorry Man,
I would change out the torque conv as well. Had this happen to me on a SWB Silverado a few years back. Swapped tons of stuff before someone one told me to have the torque convertor checked and walla. Bad
Good luck

 

Yeah I thought so too actually. That is was something with the lockup.
I think a rebuild kit would be the best thing to do here.
I have found a nice master rebuild kit on ebay. Since I live in Norway that is the best place to shop for me.

I have been looking at this kit:
Rebuild Kit

Wouldn't that kit include everything I need, except the torque converter though. But I think it is weird if the torque converter is already bad just after 85K miles...But everything is possible...

 

The problem with the converter isn't the converter itself. It's just the lockup clutch inside the converter (which of course, isn't repairable unless you have the equipment to cut the converter open, rebuild it, and then weld it back together). It's a common problem on the 700R4, usually from 75,00 to 100,000 miles. Sometimes earlier, especially on trucks if the person towed with it in OD. Bottom line you need to replace the converter.

The rebuild kit has all the internal trans parts (except the bushings and sprag which I always replace when getting that far into a trans). It uses the good BW frictions though. I like the kits from Pro-Built as they are more complete. I would also recommend a TransGo shift kit (Pro-Built has these too). Dana is a TGO member under the name Pro Built Automatics. If you are considering a rebuild I would get his parts and talk to him. He's forgotten more about the 700R4 than I will ever know. He even helped design some of the parts in the kits he sells (both the BW parts and the TransGo parts). Great tech support too, I spent about three hours on the phone with him in ten to twenty minute increments while rebuilding my first 700R4 (first auto I ever did too). The trans came out perfectly and made me a Pro Built believer for life.

BTW, glad to hear that the third gens are alive in Norge! There are people here from all over the globe. That's one of the things that's so cool about this community.

 

Ok..Thanks a lot for the information. So you think it is the lockup clutch that is worn out inside the converter??...Then I would have to buy a new converter then...I have seen repair kits with converter included so I guess that would be my bet....

The car has never towed anything but I have been using the overdrive as long as I have driven the car without any problem at all..This problem arrived after I swaped to TPI....

Nice to hear you like that there are third-gens in Norway (Norge
You find them all around the country but the only problem here is that parts are EXTREME expensive...
for example. 1 oxygen sensor (O2)..Is about $100...
100$ for 8 spark plugs...1200$ for roller camshaft & lifters etc.etc..

So you see it is much cheaper to get parts from US and if I find a reasonable shipping prize everything is perfect.

 

Hmn, it's interesting that the problem started when you swapped to the TPI. The problem could be that the ECM is not telling the clutch in the converter to unlock (that's what the four prong connector on the side of the trans is for, so the ECM can control the lockup). The carb setup would have used a computer too, if I'm not mistaken, that also would have controlled this function. You might try unplugging the connector from the case and see if the problem persists. With the connector unplugged the converter shouldn't lock up, so the problem should go away, and if it does I would suspect that the problem may lie in the ECM and not the actual converter. Where did you get the ECM, and where is the chip in it from?

I heard you guys get hit hard with tarrifs too. I read an article in Hot Rod about a guy in either Norway or Sweeden that had told the person he bought parts from to claim they were something other than what they were to reduce the declared value and therefore the tarrif, but he got caught and it was not good. It's hard enough to build cars in the US, you guys deserve a special place in the hot rodders hall of fame.

 

Yeah I also find it a little bit strange that the problem came after the TPI setup..
I am going to tell you quickly the story of this swap.

I bought a wiring harness with ECM and PROM from a 88 Camaro 305 TPI.
I have swaped my old wiring harness with this one, including the ECM.

The to connector points of the wiring harness to the TPI is at the C100 connector (under dash at drivers side). and the C207 connector at the passenger side.

When I was finished with the swap and started the engine I was going to take it out for a test ride...And then I noticed that the lockup didn't work.
I had about 1700RPM in 50MPH and that was much more that when I had carburettor system...What I can remember at that time was that when I was hitting brakes the RPM just went slowly down..Not like when I had carburettor..When I had carbed system the lockup should be disconnected when I hit the brake pedal but the car didn't do so...

Many hours of research to find this little electrical problem. And I found it out, finally. On the wiring harness I have under the dash from 1987, the TCC lockup was going throught the C207 connector from the brake pedal.
In 1988 they changed the TCC connection to the C100 connector uner the dash. So I just ran a new wire from the brake pedal and throught the right pinout at the connector. And then I took the car for a test ride and the TCC worked...

After that problem was solved i noticed this strange things with shaking and stuff at RPM's about 1000RPM...

So after cheking fluid level and everything I am still confused of what this could be..I have actually thought about the ECM myself...Shouldn't the ECM disengage the lockup itself???

Hope my english is understandable, because like I said..I am from Norway and this is not my main language...

And THANK YOU very much for those very nice compliments about Hot rodders hall of fame...We try our best

 

The way the system should work from the factory is that the ECM will lock up the converter anytime the trans is in 4th gear. The brake switch is there to disengage the lockup any time you step on the brake pedal. The ECM should, I believe, disengage the lockup if the trans downshifts as well. I know it is possible to make the trans lockup the converter in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, but I think that a stock system only does it in 4th.

It sounds like the lockup function is working properly now, but the lockup is not releasing when it should.

Your English is very good. I've found most people outside the US speak English well, and usually a few other languages also. Americans are weak in that area. I speak Spanish pretty well, but that's about it. I'd like to learn some others, but without a good reason (like a trip overseas) it's tough to make the time. I hope to travel more as I get older, so maybe I'll learn some more then.

 

Yeah I think the lockup is working properly because when I hit the brake pedal the lockup releases and the RPM changes...
But I also have a little high RPM when idling after driving a few miles because my MAF sensor is bad...

What do you suggest I should do with the lock-up system...
Change PROM or ECM?...

 

My advice is to troubleshoot one thing at a time. If you know the MAF is bad replace it first. Get that part of the system right. Once that works try and troubleshoot the trans problem.

 

Yeah I think that might be the way to go...
I will come back to you guys after I have solved the problem with the TPI system...

 

Hey there..It's me again..Now I have solved the MAF related problem. It was actually something wrong with my wiring to the ALDL connector and the SES light so now my car drives more normally. I think my ECM was in "LIMP" mode for most of the time beacuse my wiring was wrong to the ECM.

But I still have this shaking problems..What could this posibly be?.
I have done some more testing to find out when this problem comes.
And the problem comes when I just tapping the gas pedal a little..Not much..Just a half inch or less...Then this shaking is starting out.

If I let go the gas pedal my RPM jumps a little bit up and deccelerates nice... But if i just touch the pedal and stay on the pedal the car is shaking and RPM jumps...

If I push pedal more down the shaking stops at once and car accelerates very nice...

 

So the shaking occurs when you are lightly accelerating? Does it do it when the car is parked? If it is smoothing out as RPM increase or if it is in a certain sweet spot you may have a balance issue with the engine or harmonic balancer. See if you can duplicate it with the car parked.

 

Could be a low RPM misfire. When was the last time you changed the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor? You should do it about once a year, even with good stuff. Chevys have a problem with a 5-7 crossfire condition too that can become a problem with older wires.

 

I was thinking of the same...a misfire or something...

I changed the spark plugs 2 weeks ago and the rotor,cap and wires 2 years ago...But the car has not been used so much the last two years...

This is only happening when i drive the car...I also sometimes hear a noise from the transmission when this is happening...

 

Two thoughts. One the wires go bad from age, not use. The insulation degrades over time as various chemicals leach out of it into the atmosphere. The cap and rotor not so much, but it is possible that the dielectric strength of the material surrounding the contacts could degrade over time as well. I'm not sure about that, but I'm sure about the wires. Two years isn't that old, but depending on what they are it may be old enough.

Second, with the transmission noise it might be a problem with the converter lockup. If the converter is locking at low RPM it could cause shaking. The best way to test it is to unplug the connector at the case (you won't hurt the trans running it like that; the converter just won't be able to lockup). If this solves the problem then you have an issue with the converter itself or the electrical components of the system (I would troubleshoot the electrical side first because swapping a converter only to find out that you had a bad 4th gear switch or something much easier to repalce would make me irate).

 

Okay...I think I want to buy some new spark plug wires and cap and rotor just to have them also renewed.

I am not sure if I am remembering right, but after my TPI swap I had some problems with my coneverter lockup...It was actually not locking up at all..
The reason why I figured out this was that the brake pedal switch that has a purple wire that should go to the connector at the transmission, was going to the C207 connector at the carb system and through the C100 connector at the TPI system. So i rewired that one so now it goes to the connector and lock-up is working...

I recongnized that when I was driving for about 55mph the RPM in overdrive was about 1600RPM and I thought that was too much when comparing to when I had carburetted system so I knew something was not all right with my transmission lockup.

After I rewired this the lock-up engages and RPM is about 1300RPM in 55MPH so this is more normal...

I am pretty sure that this "shaking" problem was not there when the purple cable was not attached...

Do you think it has something to do with the 4th gear switch??

 

It is possible. If the 4th gear switch is stuck in the on position the converter could lock up. If the switch is hanging up it could lock up and then unlock mysteriously. You sound like you know what you are doing with the wiring, so I would troubleshoot it. Map out exactly how the system works and then test each leg of it with a voltmeter to make sure that the grounds are good and that there is voltage present in the varius wires when there should be and not when there shouldn't be. I can't offer more precise tips than that, as I'm not 100% familiar with the exact nature of the system (I understand how it operates, but don't know which color wires do what, etc.). It's just electrical troubleshooting 101 from there on.

 

I will try to disconnect the connector that goes to the gearbox and measure the voltage on that one. If I am not wrong there are 3 wires on that connector. One from the ECM and one from the brake pedal switch, and one ground.

I think that is how they are wired up. And I am not sure how to test it but I think I can put ignition key to ON and then check if there is any voltage..
I think the electronics should be fine so I am wondering about the 4th gen switch and the lock-up solenoid itself....

I think I also have to mention that I have big leaking problems now.
I notices 2 weeks ago that it was dripping transmission oil out of the oil pan gasket...I bought a new gasket and filter kit and changed the transmission oil and put on the oil pan again. Tighened the bolts many times so they should do their job.

Drove the car for about a half hour and stopped the car and the new transmission oil was dripping a lot again...

Bought another gasket that was a little bit thicker and tried again.
Drove the car for 15minutes without any leak....
Then the next day I drove the car for about 1 hour and stopped the car and it was leaking A LOT again...

What could cause this leaking?...I am sure it is out of the oil-pan and not the sealing to the converter...

Could it be the oil pan itself that is not straight?...Could this have something to do with the shaking?...I mean, is there a possibility of some pressure inside the transmission that is pushing the oil out?..

Any ideas appreciated...thanks..

 

I tried to measure voltage today at the TCC connector..

With the ignition ON i got 12volts at all the 3 wires at the connector.
This is with the TCC connector disconnected of course...

I tried to put a jumper wire between the A and F terminal on the ALDL connector and I still got 12volts at 2 of the wires.

I don't have any volts at the tan/blk connector.

What does this mean?...Is there a way to test if my TCC is working?..
Please help me out here...

 

What kind of gasket are you using on teh trans pan? Most of the auto parts store kits come with a cork gasket. These are absolute junk. They always leak. My advice would be to use an OEM gasket, which will be a black rubber coated one, and then torque the bolts to factory spec (not sure this spec, but it will be in a Haynes manual and/or someone here might know it). The pan could be warped, but with the amount of bolts in a trans pan you should be able to flatten it out when tightening it down. I would check the pan when you have it off with a straight edge. If it's bent in any place, or warped you should replace it.

 

I first bought a new gasket and filter kit from a lokal auto shop here in Norway wich was a total waste of money.
That was a black rubber gasket that was OEM part.
I used blue RTV on both sides of the gasket and tighened the bolts many rounds..first diagonal...

Then I filled new transmission oil in the gearbox and took the car for a test drive...After a half hour there was no leak but just after a half hour more it was dropping a lot of oil...

Then I went to my work. We have the same gasket material here as we use on any propeller sealings. I work at Rolls royce by the way.

I made a new gasket that was just a little bit thicker and tried again.
This time it went longer before the oil pan started to leak but the same problem again. This time i didn't use any RTV sealant though.

When I had the oil pan down i looked at the surface on it and it doesn't look worn out to me, but I didn't actually measure to check if there is not 100% straightness.

The transmission oil pan surface looks very nice so that surface should not be the problem.

 

My only other thought is that if the bolts were over-torqued they may have stripped or partially stripped the threads in the case. If that happened then the bolts can't reach proper torque and the cover gets loose and leaks. How tight were the bolts when you went to remove them? Were any of them loose? Another problem with the 700R4 is that the bolts are steel and the case is aluminum. I've seen bolts come out and take the threads with them because of disimilar metal corrosion. I've also seen bolts that were tightened way too much at the factory and caused problems once they were removed because they had done damage to the threads.

I usually use just enough RTV to stick the gasket to the pan. If I have good access I often don't use any. With the good gasket and proper torque you shouldn't need RTV. My gut says that something is wrong and the RTV acted as a crutch for a while, but eventually the fluid found a way past it.

 

There is a chance that I have over tightened the bolts.
When I took the bolts down the first time they were a little loose.
not as loose as you can take them with your hands but almost no force to turn the key. But this was the first time I took down the oil pan for past 2 years because I saw this leaking.

After changing oil and gasket first time the bolts were much more tightened that first time.

I agree to you that it is not a good thing that the threads in the transmission is made of aluminum. I have forgot to mention another thing.
2 of the bolt holes were broken threads the last time (2 years ago) I took down my oil pan so I had to drill a little bit bigger holes and made new threads to them and 2 new bolts.

Another bad thing is that one of my bolts at the corner in the front are twisted off

This happened also the first time I had my oil pan down to change oil and filter.

I did not do anything with that bolt except I tried to drill it out but no good luck on that one. I only made a tiny small hole in the threads.

The most funny thing here is that the oil pan is not leaking in that corner where the missing bolt is...But almost all other places..More on the sides of the oil pan.

I was thinking of something like this to fix everything out.

* Buy a heli-coil set of M8x1.25 and fix those 2 bolts that have bigger dimension.

* Buy a "left-rotating drill-bit" that I can try to drill out the broken bolt

* Fix those threads with heli-coil also so they got stock dimension on the threads.

* Buy a new oil pan and make a new gasket.


Have you ever fixed threads on the transmission to oil pan bolts before?
Just want to hear your experience...

 

I've never fixed trans pan bolt threads, but I'd fixed plenty of stripped threads over the years. I like the Heli-coils. When done properly I have never had one that gave me problems ever again. The Hel-coils are stainless steel, so they don't rust and are too hard to strip. I've even used Heli-coils in carburetors going into die-cast zinc and had excellent results. Make sure to use some red Loctite on the Heli-coil to lock it in place.

The difficulty is going to be getting the new holes bored square to the pan rail. If you have a lift to use it will be easier. If not I would suggest going very slowly and checkign to make sure the bit is square to the surface with a small square, or object that you know has a good 90 degree corner on it.

I think you are on the right track. For that broken bolt I would suggest grinding down the end to get a flat area, then center punching it before trying to drill it out. This will keep the bit from walking around and make sure the hole is as close to the center as possible.

 

Today I took down my oil pan at the transmission again.
I have also bought a new Aluminum oil pan that is arriving about 2 days.
That oil pan should have new bolts and gasket.

I took some pictures today to show you how my transmission look inside.
Is there anything you can tell me about my transmission, out of the pictures I have been taken?
I was thinking of the TCC system.












Not the best quality and angle of the pictures but I think you should be able to see the most of it...