Got a 92 Camaro Rs... Was looking to get a 9" like the one that Spohn has, and i could use some help... I had asked a few guys about it and they had told me what they'd do, but i was looking for more technical answers... So would you guys mind running down these options from Spohn... http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...-Complete.html ... Id like to hear what you guys recommend and y? The other thing is, do i want the 82-92 or 93-02 rear? I'd been told the 4th gen cause its longer and no spacers needed, but other than that im not sure y ones better than the other. Id like to run 17's and most likely a 315 out back. Help me out pro favor.

 

a lot of the options depend on what you are doing with the car. any ideas?

as for the length, if you are running 4th gen offset wheels, get a 4th gen width rear, if no, get the 3rd gen width.

 

Street and strip, slightly more street than strip, no DD. Say in the range of around 450-500 RWHP, give or take. What else do you wanna know? What's the 4th gen offset? i was looking at 17's and a 315, basically whatever requires no mod, but so i sits nicely with no rubbing... Unless thats not possible, then whatever the biggest i could run.

 

seriously?

wheels come with many different specs, offset and backspacing are the location of the mounting surface. You can get a wheel to fit a 315 that will fit a 3rd gen rear or a 4th gen rear. You should figure out what exact wheel you want first.

Aff the shelf cheap wheels can be found more redially in the 4th gen offset, but good cutom wheels can be had with the proper offset for the 3rd gen width rear.

as for a 315 and no mod, unless the wheel is dead flush with the outside of the car, you will have to at least do a little hammering and cutting.

As for the internals, i have the aluminum moser case and a tru-trac, very nice stuff. I would get the rear setup for 4th gen 98-02 disc brakes, cheap to pickup and a nice upgrade over whatever you have stock. Sway bar mounts, axle flange drilling ect is up to you.

do you research before buying this, its a large investment and you might as well do it right, once.

 

Seriously what? I have a general idea of backspacing and offsets, i have just never done this before thats y i ask... Forgive me if my questions seem stupid or simple, but im not on the same level as you guys... experience wise.. i was askin about the 315 cause i had read a post which said (running 315's)... but i think i had read that someone was running them with no mod, i may be mistaken. Im just trying to understand what to choose and y.. If you have something that i could read to understand what option is best for a certain application, id be more than happy to read it. That way i wont have to ask every little question. Id just like to, as you said... Thats what im trying to do, so i know that say for example... For my application a 3.89 is a better choice than a 4.11 or a 4.30, or std flanges v.s. a flange w/ lightening holes or star flanges.... I just ask 1 thing, and this isnt person specific.. Please do not rip on me, ive had enough here already about not knowing my s**t, or not knowing what it is i want... Im just trying to learn... N before anyone says anything... I do know about searching here on the forum, just havent found specific answers.. Now that aside, //<86TA>\\ , why'd you go with the tru-trac vs say a trac-lock or an auburn?

 

Heres what i was thinking...

Center Section: Detroit Truetrac - 31 spline
Axle Options: Standard
Axle Flanges: Standard
Case Type: Undecided
96-02 (TCS) ABS: None
ABS Reluctor Rings: None
Gear Ratio: Not sure 3.50,3.70, or 3.89
Wheel Studs: (Dont know how to decide)
Rear Brakes: EB Miller (Probably LS1 rear discs)
Fill or Drain Bungs: Both
Sway Bar Install Kit: Yes
Conversion U-Joint: No
LCA Relocation Brackets: Yes
Housing Finish: Undecided

Id like to hear some input if you guys wouldn't mind....Was also curious if you guys think id be better to get the 9" complete from Spohn or piece it together? Cause i had also stumbled upon Quick performance's 9" GM F-Body Bolt-In Housing (Moser) w/moser axles... I was wondering which way would save me some cash or if it'd end up close to the same price?

 

For 450 to 500 HP a 12 bolt would probably be much better than the 9 inch. The 12 bolt is lighter, uses less power to turn and is cheaper to build. It's good to about 700 HP or more. Moser makes a very strong 12 bolt for the 3rd gen F cars.

If you are stuck on a 9 inch then a 31 spline Traction Lock or Truetrac with a nodular case and Daytona pinion housing will work fine for you.

 

Less power to turn... hows that work? You saying its cheaper when putting it together piece by piece myself? Cause all the moser ones on their site are like 3 G's... FYI, i dont wanna use any used parts, in case thats what you meant by cheaper to build. Its not that im stuck on the 9", its just that ive read that its easier to work with, at least thats how i interperate it.. Center section comes out without removing axles.. This being my first build Id like to build whatever is convienient, so as i could get familiar with how everything works.... Id like to learn a lot, even the fab stuff guys do to get bigger wheels/tires on, but i think thats too much to do right now... Obviously, money is a factor too.. Based on mosers site for the 12 bolt and Spohns for the 9", price seems about even... Im curious to know how you would build it cheaper.. .with new not used parts.

 

The way that the 9 inch Ford is designed there is more drag on the gears as they turn against each other. It takes more power to turn the 9 inch. The 9 inch is also quite a bit heavier. There are more parts in the 9 inch, so cost is usually higher. That's with new parts, not used.

You can not remove the center chunk without removing the axles in any rear end.

The only thing easier about building a 9 inch is shimming the pinion depth and setting the backlash. Everything else is just as hard or harder.

Moser 12 bolt with Eaton Posi, press on 9 inch Ford axle bearings, gears of your choice, 30 spline axles, 1350 yoke, assembled $2250 plus shipping.

Moser 9 inch Ford with nodular case, Traction Lock, gears of your choice, 1350 yoke, 31 spline axles, press on bearings, assembled $2320 plus shipping.

This is apples to apples with both rear ends having press on axle bearings and no c clips. The 12 bolt can be quite a bit cheaper with c clip axles. All parts are new including the housings. Both are bolt in for the 3rd gen F body with the torque arm brackets.

 

im not trying to belittle you or rip on you weaz, just trying to help. Without know what you want to do and what exact wheel you wan tto run its difficult to tell you what would work better. Projects like this require a lot of different parts to work together and fit together to achieve a finished product.

I was through out the wheel idea because without know what you want to spend on wheels, its hard to say what axle you would want. The most common wheel people here use for a 17" and 315 tires, are the zr1 vette wheels, origional or repoduction ones. these would require a 4th gen width rear, or you would have to use spacers.

However, if you are going to pickup a set of nice custom wheels, that can be ordered in any size and offset/backspacing, they you could put them on a 3rd or 4th gen rear. So thats why im asking about what wheels you want.

as fir the tru-trac. I heard a lot of good about them, and its a great setup for the street and some strip use. they are reall smooth on the street, they dont drag wheels in turns or shimmy, make noise ect.

If you have to have a 9", and at your power level, the moser aluminum case is really nice too and will save you some weight. If you are going ot be upping the power and drag racing more than street use, i would go with a heavy duty nodular housing.

wheels atuds, stock is 12mm, unless you ahve a need for anything else, i would just stick with those.

And finally, a buit of advise on wheels again. I ordered my moser 9" in the stock 3rd gen width. When i got it, it ended up being aobut 1/2" narrower on each side than stock. I already had wheels for my car setup for the -proper 3rd gen width, so now im stuck with using a 1/2" spacer and longer wheels studs on the rear. Not a big deal, and if i ever get a different set of wheels, i will correct that, but sometihng to keep in mind, sometimes there are production differences to account for. So i would wait on actually ordering wheels untill you have the rear in hand, just incase something like this happens so you can make adjustments.

With the 9", if the car is lowered, the torque arm bracket will rub the tunnel a little, and the upper torque arm bracket bolt will hit the floor behind the rear seat. It will "clearance" itself, but there will be collareral damage. I not have a hole in the front of the hump behind the rear seats, right at the top of the tunnel.

If you go with a 12 bolt, i would stay away from mosers. they use 4 little bolts to hold the torque arm to the axle, and those bolts always find a way to wiggle loose and cause damage to the torque arm and the rear if not corrected in time.

 

//<86TA>\\ We're good, i know your not, thats just for anyone else that comes thru here.. no names.. and trys to give me s**t.

As far as the wheels, i know i want 17's, its more about the backspacing... Im trying to get what the difference is between running wheels with 6-7"'s of backspacing on a 4th gen vs 4-5"'s on a third gen... or is that just preference... I figure it probably has to do with brakes and other thing too...

Let me understand this... You say that its better to run nodular iron for race and aluminum for street, if thats the case im curious why it costs extra for aluminum, i figured it'd be the other way around... Price wise. I wasnt planning on ordering wheels any time soon... The rear end is gonna take a descent chunk outta my wallet.

Thats messed up, wonderin how low exactly. Is everyone running the 9" lowered have this problem? (rhetorical question)
How do i choose what gear i need, i havent read anything that says sepifics about choosing?
Maybe i misunderstood what i read, ill see if i could find what it said exactly...
OKay, but will it have all the options i posted above as well?

 

Remember with a 4th offset, you cant run deeper-dish wheels. I know that's a silly thing to worry about, but for me I cant stand the look of most modern wheels. I like the wheels to have a bit of lip to them. Gives the car a much more muscular look, and going with a 4th gen offset will compromise that. If you go wtih a 3rd gen offset you wont need spacers in the front, but if you decide later you want to go with 4th gen wheels, you can add spacers all around. One is, sort of, compatible with both.

 

i agree InfernalVortex, thats y i was askin about using a 4th gen instead of 3rd.. I like a little lip as well kinda like this pic.... Looks pretty sick..

Was gonna ask something but ill keep that for the tires/wheels part of the forum. Got some other ?'s though... I know what the splines are, but what would say a 31 vs a 33 spline do? Would it be that big of a difference? The other thing i still havent found an answer to is choosing gears.... I know depending on which gear/tire how it affects rpm.... But how does one go about choosing based on application... Im safe to say that it mostly depends on torque not really horsepower (atleast not so much), am i correct? So yeah, hows that work?

 

If this car will be mostly used on the street then you need to choose the gears for street use, not racing. You need to figure out what RPM you can live with on the highway and then use a gear ratio calculator to figure out what gear will give you that RPM with the tire diameter that you want to use. You also need to consider the torque converter stall speed. If you have a 4000 RPM stall converter you don't want to use a gear that is going to give you 2000 RPMs at cruising speed.

The $2295 price that Spohn listed is for a basic 9 inch rear end, like the one that I listed above, except their price is with a spool and not a LSD. You would have to add $220 to their price for the LSD over the spool. Brakes, sway bar mounts, powder coating and other options are extra cost on the Spohn rear end too.

 

Agreed, but how would it be chosen for the strip vs the street?.... This is what i calculated for street/highway driving...

315 rear / 245 front

3.5 ratio
65 MPH x 3.5 x 336 / 25.68 = 2976 RPM

3.7 ratio
65 MPH x 3.7 x 336 / 25.68 = 3146 RPM

3.89 ratio
65 MPH x 3.89 x 336 / 25.68 = 3308 RPM

295 all around

3.5 ratio
65 MPH x 3.5 x 336 / 27.45 = 2784 RPM

3.7 ratio
65 MPH x 3.7 x 336 / 27.45 = 2943 RPM

3.89 ratio
65 MPH x 3.89 x 336 / 27.45 = 3094 RPM

How do i figure that out?

Yea, i know.

I get that too... So with your Moser 9 inch Ford... Its a nodular case, Traction Lock, my choice gears , 1350 yoke, 31 spline axles, press on bearings, all for $2320 plus shipping.... But does your price include all the extra options or are those gonna be more? As far as traction lock, i assume your referring to the trac-lock posi. Id rather have the detroit true-trac... Do you have a website?

 

aluminum parts always cost more than steel/iron, irregardless of what they are used for.
no reason you couldnt use the aluminem center on the track, or the iron on the street, but iron is a lot stronger than aluminum, and if the car is really getting beat on at the track, the iron will last a lot longer.

as for the 9" and the floor, its going to hit on any car, the chassis is the same. Depending on ride height it can be more or less, but it still hits.

The gears question seems ot have been answered, it again has to work with many other parts, the engine powerband, the trans gearing, wheel diameter, ect. To get the very most out of the car, you need to set things up taking all this into consideration.

 

all the options are more, they even say so when you select them. Looks through the list of options, the ones that have extra costs say so and how much added to the base price

 

Yeah i know aluminum is more, i was just askin in case theres more to it than just that... guess il figure that out when i get around to engine and trans... I know that, I wasnt askin about Spohns. I was askin Big Gear Head about what he had posted (post 9), and whether he could get a rear with the options i had mentioned above(Post #6) which are the options off of Spohns site... He hadn't stated whether the rear end he offered ($2320 plus shipping) includes all those options too... N if they'd be more, then i wanna know how much it would be total with everything (from him/ not Spohn).

 

Let's say that you have a torque converter that has a stall speed of 3000 RPMs. If you use a 3.42 gear with an overdrive transmission then you will probably be running around 2100 RPMs at 60 MPH. That means that the torque converter is going to be slipping the whole time that you are driving down the highway. This will build heat in the transmission and can cause problems. If you have a lock up converter then this isn't a problem anymore. This is just something to consider when choosing a converter and gears.

I don't have a web sight. People are not suppose to do business on these forums. I listed the prices on the assemblies above to compare the 12 bolt to the 9 inch. I probably took it a little too far already.

 

Ill go read up on that stuff, havent really got into trans's yet.. Guess its more reading for me... Understood... i wont ask then.

 

Does this sound about right....the 82-92 10 bolt Camarorear measures 55.750" housing flange to housing flange?

 

Was curious if n e one is from illinois and knows of any good powdercoaters... Quality and price wise. N yes i know of a thing called google and search, but i was looking to hear 3rd gener's experiences/ info.

 

The reason I'm going to stray away from the Moser 9" is price. The price they quote is for a stripped rear end. For the options I want, it would be 3700 or so. Then again, I want to eventually hold 1k hp.

The one I'm going to probably go with is Midwest Chassis and Performance's. Theirs is a fabricated 9" with all the options for roughly $3k shipped.

Then again, with the economy the way it is, it will be a long ways into the future.

 

Thats a lot... Are you doing something custom wise or just a basic setup?... Cause i was lookin around at different prices with the options i listed in my #6 post (except 3rd gen rear not 4th gen) and PAracing quoted me a complete unit minus brakes around $2550.00 + UPS. That includes LCA Relocation Brackets and powdercoating... Just throwing that out there.

 

with all the info you have.

i can tell you

on the dyno my car was 2 to 3 Hp less with the 9" but picked up 4mph in the 1/4 with taller tires.. so was faster. when done..
that was with out NOS and running 11.s
is it heavier.. some (9LBS) but with a stock panrod and trailing arms makes up the Diff...

bolted right in 100% 9" Hits Nothing any place.in My 92 Z28
and that's with a catback going over the top of it just like stock only a bit Bigger on the Tubes.

you can run alum or steel. IT'S GOOD TO 1000 hp
(what carri entrpz tells me)

if you get the stock size 9"("100% bolt in) you will never have anything rubbing your trailing arms im running 13" wide slick type tires 29" tall
no probs AT ALL.

1.just pick your spline (31 cheap to get ) and strong good to 1000Hp

2. Studs12x20 screw in studs (lugnuts everyplace)

3 u joints. bolt right up

4. pick what brakes you want. (or have on the car)

and check you plateing places in your City.. also

i have had gold Zink plate (milidon oil pan color stuff. done for $60)
and they blasted it for me also. (rust proof)

you prep some paint shops are less spend also.
maco charged $20 to shoot my rearend in artic white.

Good luck and always shop.

my 9" carri

4.11
det locker
31 spline
5" screw in studs
92 camaro bolt in
yoke matchn U joints. (beefy type)
N housing
bilt pin suport (trick anodizing)
and a few other things i forget now

truck dropn off in my driveway $2200

 

Thanks for the info articwhiteZ... You got the Currie.. I was looking at the Moser 9", only the housing and axles... If i had more cash id get it powdercoated, but just 250 for powdercoating is much for me... Ill look around and if i can get it PC'd cheap somewhere ill do that, ill figure something out.... I wanted to ask.. N i know this is a stupid question, but when getting the housing it should have the torque arm mount on it.. right? I shouldn't have to tell them about it... I would figure it would unless i was running a different setup instead of a torque arm.

 

Its been a few months since Ive looked, but thats including shipping. Lemme go onto spohn's website real quick and let you know what I would get.

Here we go.....

Without shipping......thats $170 extra to 33157.

 

Didnt have to post every part (LOL) but i see how it would be that much... I see you opted for the most expensive center section... I was just looking at the Detroit Truetrac.. Seeing as i neither have enough to buy a complete 9" nor do i have every detail ironed out yet, i cant get it n e ways... Its probably just the housing and axle package (with all options) minus the center/gears for now... That way when i get around to getting the center/gears ill at least know what i need... I know what tires i wanna run, i have an idea of what power i want the motor to put out.... Im using cam quest just to get an idea of what id be lookin at... Looks to be like 520 HP @ 6000 n 524 TQ @ 4500. N like a 2000 stall... Still playing with the idea of whether or not i wanna go automatic (car was auto) or manual...

Just curious... Why'd you go with the 1/2"-20 Std. Length and not Std-Metric?

 

I didnt know exactly what I needed, so I just clicked anything.

As for going with the 35 spline, I want to abuse the living hell out of it and not worry about breaking it.

 

Just ordered my housing/axles from exotic performance plus... Should hopefully get it by Friday. If the quality of the housing/axles is as good as my experience with them, i know im good... I know this isnt the vendor review part of the forum, but i just wanted to say that i spoke with Bob and it was a pleasure. Didnt feel like i was being rushed, he took the time to speak with me, and even asked/suggested i consider a few different options that i initially wasn't considering.. Actually even saved me some cash, plus free shipping... Cant beat that.

 

Got a few questions... I say i went with either a trac-lock or a true-trac.... R the axles gonna be different depending on which center section i get or the same?.... Cause i was asked what center id be running and they said that if i get a new true-trac there are a lot of problems with them (poppin). If i ordered the housing/axles setup for the trac-lock, could i still use a true-trac and just change it out, or would the axles need to be different as well?

 

N e one know n e thing about this?

 

just get the No Spin/Detroit Locker
they dont pop or anything. smooth as glass on and off the street.



this way you will never have it any better!

stick with the 31 spline parts are less hard to come by.
cost less..and will take 1000hp.. ring gears will let go before your axls will..them big thick axls are for the prostock boys running 6 sec 1/4 passes. with 1400 HP+ just so ya know.

 

Thanks for the info ArticwhiteZ.... Not getting any center section yet, but im still looking for an answer to my previous question about a different axle length based on what center i do get... Heres exactly what i was told and i quote....
I was curious if theres any truth to that statement? The only thing i ordered is the housing and axle package.... Since the guy said that he has to know what center ill run and that the new truetracs (most,not all) have problems, i told him to have it be setup for the trac-lock... So my main question would then be since i told him the setup would be for the trac-lock... Can i run any center section i want, or would i need a different axle for each one because of what i was told (about different lengths)?

 

the 9" ford is off set. 1 axle will be longer then the other.

the place thats making the 9" housing will have the info on how long the axles will need to be. (if they made/use all the parts) they will know.

the 31 spline axle/housing combo will/should fit any 31 spline 3rd member used in a ford housing.even a detrt locker.

the 35 spline is ALL aftermarket..dont know.. but should be the same.
all the axles are held in. by plates at the end of the tubes. that bolt to the housing.
and the axle ends just slide into the 3rd member unit.

this is the point they need to know how long..

 

Thanks man. Ill probably call and ask just to make sure that whether i go with a trac-lock, true trac, or even locker it'll fit no problem. Appreciate the info..... I just got an answer to whether it matters... Talked with Moser and they said that i could run any center i want except the True-trac.... Since i ordered it for a Trac-lock, i could pop in a locker, but if i decided i want a True-trac id need to order a passenger side axle thas going to be 9/16" longer. So i guess it only applies to the True-trac.

 

Quote:

Moser 9 inch Ford with nodular case, Traction Lock, gears of your choice, 1350 yoke, 31 spline axles, press on bearings, assembled $2320 plus shipping.




Or you can buy mine for 1000 less...

 

Wish you said something earlier... Just curious what are the options on/specs of your 9" 88Formulakiller?

 

its got 3.5 gears, trac lok, 4th gen width, not sure on axles, 31 spline i believe

 

88Formulakiller... appreciate the offer. dont even know what gears i want yet... I'm not that far into the project, thanks anyways...

ArcticwhiteZ, r u running the No Spin/ Detroit Locker? If so where you pick it up and how much?

Was also curious... Does each center section have a range as far as horse power limitations goes?

 

Im psyched, got my Moser 9" today. Here are some pics, if you wanna see some more, check out my album on photobucket... http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/k...oser%209-inch/ ...





So i do have a few questions though.

1) How do i go about making sure that everything is cool, measurement wise? (should be stock 92 camaro length, set up for LS1 brakes)

2) How do i check if the ends are indeed correct for the LS1's that ill put on? (when i get them) (are these GM Flanges?)

3) I'm gonna paint it myself so what parts do i not want to paint? (or can i paint everything?)

More ?'s to come later... thanks.

 

forgive me if i missed anything in the past post..

you orderd the axls with short wheel studs?

And.. why dose it look like you have leaf spring pads Mt on the housing.
(the first thing you come to from the Mid out, on ea side)

also call the plating shops in your city.

Side Note:
nickle zink / Cad some thimes they can do plate work way less then Paint.
and the out come is Fantastic.and would never rust.. you should take a day and go to a few shops and see what they have for samples...
to do you rearend could be $80 to $120
im redoing mine this spring.. Cad.. is the same finnish on a MILODON
Oil pan... $80 rust proof forever!

 

No, i asked for standard... How long they supposed to be? (mseausered, look like a little more than 1 and a 1/4")

Supposed to be brackets for rear sway bar, at least thats where i think they should be.

You think something dont look right?

 

Standard length = short, long = long.

Yes, those are swaybar mounts, not leaf spring mounts. They are welded to the axle, unlike the stock ones that bolt to the axle.

Eveything looks to be correct. As far as measurements go, just compare it to a stock rear axle (if you have one), and for the brakes, it will be pretty obvious when you go to put them on if something isn't correct.

 

sway bar ..gatcha..

thats somthing i dont use anymore with as slow has i drive on the street anymore...
as for the studs.. most the time guys order the long ones to pass
NHRA tech (show they use most of the lugnut) some guys buy them to look kool..

forgive the rust/dust and water spots 7 years of sitting.. need wash them.


seems the three colors my car has is Red White and Blue

Nos Bottles (Blue)
Red inter
white car

 

Housing length looks to be fine... 55 and 3/4".... I know it'd be obvious, but don't have brakes yet... Need more money.... I do have one question though. Depending on price for plating as "Artic" mentioned, i might paint myself... I was curious what i could paint on the housing? More specific, the housing ends and the surface where the center section bolts up the the housing. Can i paint those 2 surfaces?housing17mod.jpg?t=1263521195

housing21mod.jpg?t=1263521246

 

you can shoot all of it as it sits..clean it up with any good thinner before shooting.
remove any sharp points/ edgs w/File or sanding..

just remember:
shoot all the brakets/inside & unders first.. then do all the rest.of the housing.. when you think you have enof colore on it, put a bright light to it and look a 2nd and 3rd time.. add more.. dont let it run..

the last thing is clear coat.. you will want to add min of 4 coats of clear.
the last one to all the Hi points.. this will will make the Housing shine..
and Keep it from rusting or chipping. it will stand out when the lights of a car shine on it when driving..

you will need a warm place to shoot it about 70ish no more then 80s (sets up to fast on the clear).. fine for colore.. all this info is for spray can finnish (dupti colore)

you also need to leav the room every 2 to 3 mins.. and take a few to get fresh Air.
or get a resprtr (spelling)
when done.. let it sit for 2 days before handling... wrap with old bath towles and tape. and put away till you get all the parts.. it will get chipped.. just sitting out of the way. ILL put money on it!

the ends will be open to work with and try your brakes..

 

Thanks. Since i've never done this I need some info... As far as installing the bearings is this the order that it should be installed on the axle?

100_1995.jpg?t=1263522213

N ill need to get them pressed on right? Whats the easiest way to DIY? Know any links that will help with installing them (on axle/ in housing/ lubricant)? Its probably straight forward, just wanna leave no room for error... thanks.

 

did you get the plates.. that hold the axls in?

you should have some plates that go on before the bearings.

your seals are they the right ones? im asking as they should be pushed into the Axle tubes.
I need another Beer...

 

You talking bout the backing plates for brakes, or something else? All i got was the housing, axles, torque arm bracket, bolts (hardware). Cause i dont have brakes yet. I was looking at the instructions i got with the housing but i dont get 2 things.... heres a pic....

it shows a shim which i dont need for LS1 brakes, but the pic shows 1 bearing and a press ring.... Just trying to figure out what the extra part is for... 2 seals, 2 bearings and the other 2 pieces which it doesnt say where they go.