Hi all. So i'm just about done building my 357 stealth ram motor and I'm guessing it will have approx. 400hp at the flywheel. I have an auto tranny 700r4 which was beefed and rebuilt 2 years ago w/ roughly 2k miles now. What's next? Rear end I suppose. I know 9" w/ new brakes and driveshaft will cost me roughly 3 grand if I go quality but I just don't have that cash to drop if I want to drive this summer. From the article here I could build up my 10 bolt 3.23 to handle what I'm gonna throw at it for about $1000 with all new components and keep my brakes and driveshaft. The car only has 17k original miles so these are in great shape still. I have owned it for 6 years now and only do about 700-1500 miles per year. I plan on hitting the track at least once a year just for bragging rights and to help me tune as I add more speed parts. I will be getting a 3600-4000 stall converter when I finish the engine swap. And some type of radial drag tires to fit on my stock IROC rims 16". If I end up getting more HP over the next 5 years then I'll be ready to go 9" then. I'm just trying to keep some money in the bank for suspension too. I really want a balanced car.

What do you think of my parts list below? Is it complete or am I missing anything? Did I get the correct/best spline counts? I can't seem to specifically find the "solid pinion spacer". Is there a better/cheaper kit or combination to purchase these parts so I don't end up with duplicates? Are there any other upgrades which will help? Here is one or the articles I have referenced which leads me to believe a 10 bolt upgrade is not completely insane. http://www.lt1howto.com/articles/diy9inch.htm

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-7115/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-8255/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-9200/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-9563/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-A102804/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RAT-308TK/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STR-RS01875373/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-8510400/

Thanks

 

The trouble with beefing up a 10 bolt is that you're going to spend a little less money than buying a 9" and when you're done, you still have a diff with a tiny ring and pinion.

You can get started simply with a 9" housing package as mentioned in the diy9inch article but don't need to spend a who lot more to get it running. A simple junkyard center section can get you on the road and it can always be upgraded to something better in the future. I was able to pull a 9" center out of an old Bronco for $100. It had a 31 spline posi in it and 4.10 gears. Chances are you'll probably only find 3.00 - 3.50 gears and an open diff but it's a cheap way to get it on the road. As finances allow, keep buying upgrade components to build a better center then pop it in when you're ready.

As for spline count, I don't recommend 28 spline even for a street car. Get 31 spline. Factory 9" diffs used either 28 or 31 spline so junkyard parts are available. If you want to upgrade to 33 or 35 spline axles, it's going to be all aftermarket stuff.

 

My car has around 400 flywheel horsepower and the 10 bolt has lived with radials and I have no reason to think it wont keep going because it will probably never have slicks or even drag radials on it. I have about $700 in the 10 bolt with a 4.10 gear set(very small pinion) and an Strange LSD, If I ever spray it I will have to go to a 12 bolt or 9 inch but I couldn't spend the extra money at the time.

Mark.

 

I'm know pro when it comes to rear ends,but I do know a little about 10 bolts because I upgraded to a stronger one . I will "not" say its the "ultimate 10" that is mentioned here on this site. You on the other hand have put it together with your list above.I was new to this site and only had general idea on how to strengthen mine.I went to a shop here called " "The rear end shop "Thats all they do there for the last 20 years. .I asked him to build me a 3.42 with posi. and new support cover. He did ask me what my plans were for the car . I told him a street car and DD. , that might see some 1/4 mile track runs. He did just that. With all the standard parts ( bearings and seals ,etc. ) upgrading to the new 3.42 gears,28 spline axles and a 28 spline Eaton posi.with a L.PW. Ultimate cover.He told me as long as I run it at the track with the set up I have know, (engine not exceeding 400 horses,automatic,with street tires "no slicks" ) He said if I can break it he would install another one for free. Any way here's some photos and prices to the build.Here's the link =

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...de-photos.html

 

Ron I did come across your article before putting together my build list. The information there was very helpful and made me want to take a second look at keeping my 10 bolt. Luckily for me too I already have a 3 series limited slip. It seems like the only thing I'll have that your builder might not agree with is mild drag radials. Otherwise a 10 bolt might be adequate for 2-3 years I would think?

Alkyl. What about this setup for approx. $1600 w/no brakes. I would jump on this no prob if I could find a way to reuse what I already have. I have access to a fabrication/welding shop so is there a way to make a free backing plate myself. Why is it that all aftermarket housings only accept 4th gen brakes. I understand they are superior but if someone is gonna take the time to build and sell a unit for our cars can't they fab a bracket to keep existing rotors and discs and save me $400.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-inch-Ford-...ht_1377wt_1037

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-inch-ford-...#ht_703wt_1037

Edit: I forgot to mention the driveshaft as well. I would guess I have to purchase a new one? Might as well go aluminium while I'm in there. Can I reuse my stock one for now?

 

From the c-clip eliminator page:

Explain how this is a good idea.

Add up

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-8255/ plus
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-9563/ plus
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-A102804/

then consider how that could possibly be a good idea compared to

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...sagev104&dds=1

which is a better part to begin with (rolled splines and hardened AFTER splining, compared to cut splines and NO hardening).

The other thing you were looking for is this

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...=rat4111&dds=1

A posi carrier is conspicuously absent from your BOM.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ETN-19599-010/

If all you have now is an Eaton Gov-Lock or a stock Auburn, you'll be right back inside that housing in no time flat.

Now... given that you will be replacing EVERY SINGLE wear part in the whole thing, the # of miles on it now is COMPLETELY irrelevant. I would put that as a serious contenda for the lamest excuse I've ever come across for leaving a bunch of 1940s drum brakes on a supposedly "modern" (or "modernized") car.

Bottom line on that is, if you're going to spend all this money on some old core, why start out with ANYTHING LESS THAN the ABSOLUTE BEST core you can get your hands on? Which of course would be, a 89-92 with disc brakes. Don't shoot yourself in the shorts by wasting ALL THAT MONEY on the garbage that's under your car now. If wasting money on a 10-bolt AT ALL is a questionable idea, how much worse is it to waste it on one with crappy brakes?

Not sure why you'd "have to" replace the drive shaft; but yeah, if you do, might as well do the same as with the rear housing core, and get the best. Get a junk LS1 one.

The reason the aftermarket housings only accept 4th gen brakes, is the only people willing to spend the money (at least, large #s of people anyway) are the 4th gen owners. The majority of these cars have moved far enough down the chain that the people who have them now, post on message boards about "what's the cheeeeepest ..." instead of "what's the best...". There aren't many left that are worth dropping coin into. So if YOU owned a company, and your PAYCHECK was directly connected to how many upgrades you could sell, which crowd would you rather tool up your company for, to manufacture upgrades for? The mfrs have all moved on to where the money is NOW, even though some years ago, THESE cars were in that spot. Rest assured though, in another couple of years, it'll be the same for the 4th gens; the mfrs will be building 5th gen stuff instead, for the same reason.

You can easily see, by the time you make that 10-bolt into something even remotely near stout, you'll already have 2/3 of aftermarket money in it, but you'll still only have a 10-bolt. Kind of like, you could spend $10,000 putting a custom paint job on a Kia Rio; but in the end, you'll still have .... a Kia Rio. There comes a point where it turns into putting lipstick on a pig. Given the economics as they stand TODAY (different from 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years ago) the scales tip more and more toward going aftermarket once you get up into that kind of $$$$$ level.

 

So Thank you. Now we are finally getting to why I originally posted. Which was to comment on the parts I had selected and why they may or may not be the proper choice for a 10 bolt build up. It makes complete sense to purchase the 1 kit you displayed instead of piecing the 3 parts I selected. I also overlooked that the c-clip eliminators were for drum brakes only. So I'll keep searching for a set that is compatible with discs. (if they even exist). As for the driveshaft I was referencing the 9" swap Alkyl suggested. I know with my 10 bolt I could keep the shaft I have but wouldn't I need to get a new one with any other rear housing?

As for the side discussion of which rear end is better thier is no contest and I completely understand this. What I am ultimatly trying to figure out is would a $1000 invested to beef up my current rear end which I could retain my stock brakes and driveshaft meet my goals? I am also open to the idea of slowly building a ford setup if I could have my car up and running for approx the same initial cash investment. It seems though for custom housing, third member, disc brake swap, and driveshaft I am looking at $2500-$3000 just to get rolling. Junk yard parts are an option. Although I don't think I would be satisfied with thier fitment on my car unless they have been professionally reconditioned by either myself or another shop which usually adds an expense as well. Local summertime car shows are an enjoyable past time as well as race night at the track. Whatever route is chosen it needs to be good quality because it is a reflection of me.

 

[QUOTE=sofakingdom;5171859]From the c-clip eliminator page:



A posi carrier is conspicuously absent from your BOM.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ETN-19599-010/

If all you have now is an Eaton Gov-Lock or a stock Auburn, you'll be right back inside that housing in no time flat.


Are you saying that my stock limited slip is not up to the task even if I build up the parts I've listed?

 

The man that built my rear end said anything up to 400 horses with the set up I'm running now,
so I believe a basically stock 5.0 like mine with auto. and no slicks will survive with the rear end I have built. If it does break at that time I have decided to jump on the band wagon and buy a 9" .I priced how much a 9" would be with all new parts .I came up with $ 2,600.00.Im going to use the method with used parts.I still will be with the 5.0 I have now for a few years. I figured I could sell my 10 bolt Eaton posi. on TGO,etc. for a few dollars,then start saving for it.I love to work on my car so this will just be another project.

 

Thanks Ron. Did you have a posi before you put in the Eaton? Is an aftermarket unit a must with 400HP?

To anyone else. Any input on whether an adapter plate is a viable option to retain my stock brakes with 9 inch setup? And the driveshaft thing again. What should I do about that? Can I get the aluminium one out of a 4th gen and have it cut and balanced to accept the 9" yoke and u-joint.

I've been saving the best for last here. If I do go 9" then I plan on adding a 150 shot of No2. Will the new driveshaft handle this? About 550hp total theoretically. I know the 10 bolt will explode with this but like I said before, If it would meet the goals of the motor N/A for a couple of years then I would do the nitrous and new rear end together later on.

 

First link is just a housing package with axles. It's no different than buying a Moser housing package for roughly the same price.

Second link uses a mini spool. Unless you're dirt track or off road racing where wheel slip is expected, you don't want a mini spool. If you're driving on the street, a good posi will work better. If it's a strip only car, a full spool is stronger than the mini spool.

As for the driveshaft, get a custom built steel shaft. The factory aluminum shafts are weak and I don't know the limits of the aftermarket aluminum shafts. I'm pushing 800-1000 HP through a 3" x .083" steel shaft with 1350 yokes.

 

Okay, 9 inch rear w/aftermarket brakes and driveshaft. $3200. I guess it is what it is. If I keep with street tires and just spin em crazy till I get the correct rear in, will it still snap like a twig even though its not hooking up? My 305 had no problem spinning them either. If its not grabbing then the torque forces will be less correct and it will survive till next year if I go easy?

A guy down the street from me has this for sale for $600 obo. Is it a good deal? He says its posi and is a good rearend. It seemed clean in person. He was gonna put in his 83 firebird. Bird needed too much so he sold me his megashifter and is working on a Monte SS and has no need for the 9 inch now. 4.11's. Is this a good start? Thanks

 

^^^ That looks like a spool not a limited slip.

Mark

 

yes that's a spool

 

It makes sense then. he may have been building a drag only car. His Monte was definatley a street car so that explains why the spool was no good for his application anymore.

 

And, Richmond gears, quite probably the drag-race ones which while PERFECT for full-time single-purpose drag racing, are BAD BAD BAD if you intend to put street miles on them; and, a 2 series carrier; and, a ring gear spacer.

That means, you would be putting the equivalent of 3002 - 6003 passes on those gears EVERY YEAR, as far as how the gears themselves would view it.

I would not pay $600 for that given your stated goals.

 

If the seller of that unit says its posi.and it is a spool,he may be using the term "posi."when it comes to any rear end.



SORRY ABOUT THAT !!!
I cleaned it up

 

Its def a posi !!! 100% full time posi

 

I don't know him from Adam but based on our encounter I would think he was using the term Posi generically. The only thing he knows about my car is I wanted to go fast and in a straight line. I am glad though that though that you guys picked up on this so quickly before I went marching down there cash in hand. I learn something new everyday. If I did go to some boneyards and started searching for a good center section are there any obvious signs I can look for to identify a true posi with decent gearing?

 

Ask him what kind of Posi.

 

Good chance I'll never speak with him ever again.

 

SORRY ABOUT THAT !!!!!
I cleaned it up

 

That's an old Richmond gear set. The new part number is 69-0179-1

For an OEM case, spool and gears all assembled and ready to install, $600 is an average price. Without knowing the case casting number or it's condition and the brand of the spool, a fair offer would be $450-$500. Make sure the spool is for 31 splines and not 28 splines before purchasing.

4.11 gears however will be a little too much for a 700R4. The low first gear ratio multiplied by the diff ratio would be good for a 4x4. If you're having traction problems now, it will be worse with those gears unless you swap to a 3 speed tranny like a TH350 or TH400. If you feel you need an OD, use a 200-4R instead unless you have the money to upgrade to a 4L80E which is a little big and heavy for drag racing.

 

At this point I'm steering away from this particular gear case and looking for a Trac Lock Posi, True Trac Gear, or Detroit Locker in one of these series 1310, 1330, or 1350. http://www.9inchfactory.com/third-member.shtml . Besides the price is what are the street/strip pros and cons of each. Below I've posted my camspecs. Any recomendations with gear size?

350 4-bolt .040 over
forged flat-tops w/ 4 valve reliefs
stock crank
World Sportman II heads
62cc chambers
HEAD FLOW @ .600 LIFT
245 intake, 165 exhaust (Super Flow 1050)
260 intake, 176 exhaust (Super Flow 600)
Intake Runner: 200cc, standard port location
Exhaust Ports: 69cc, standard location ( ported )
2.02 intake, 1.6 exhaust valves
Springs good to .600 lift ( I think?)
1.5 roller tip rockers
30lb/hr injectors
Lunati hyd. flat tap cam 30142
Cam Style Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range 3,200-6,500
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift 235
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift 245
Duration at 050 inch Lift 235 int./245 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration 285
Advertised Exhaust Duration 295
Advertised Duration 285 int./295 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.507 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.534 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.507 int./0.534 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees) 112
Computer-Controlled Compatible Yes
custom PROM tune
StealthRam
3600-4000 stall
3.23 gears
Built 700-r4 gm transmission
Megashifter ratcheting
93 octane gas
Eventually 150 shot nitrous.
All necessary subframe connectors
Weight 3600 lbs

Holley has already come close to testing my combo before but with different heads come to find out:
Mpi3008 Base Map For 355 small block Chevy, 30 lb/hr injectors, StealthRam intake, 58mm throttle body, 20 degree Holley heads, Lunati 30142 cam (235/245 @ .050, .507/.534, 112 LC), 9.5:1 compression, 43 PSI fuel pressure, 418 HP @ 5500 RPM, 422 ft/lbs @ 4700 RPM.
This is with their commander 950 software. I am reusing my stock ecm and tunerpro.

 

Here is an interesting idea. I could keep my brakes if I did this I suppose? I have a junk s10 parts truck I could trade for my coworkers 99 explorer 4x4. He has an s10 now too and its always breaking down. If his ford comes with posi and a good gear I could build this setup for little to no $$$ at first and get it under my car. Then as things need replacing I could build it stronger.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt...l#post12889177

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/st...h_rear_susp_ta

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/co.../MMTA-3_LG.jpg

 

Check Craigslist-Boston, there's a Ford 9 inch with 31 spline axles, Hotchkis control arms and panhard bar, all for $1000. Looks like a good deal.

 

yeah I did see that one. Doesn't come with the center section so that'll add another $1000 maybe. It does look like a good start though with the brakes and all. Thanks for lookin out.