Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Ok so I know the LS1 housing will not bolt up to a gen2 SBC. I also know that you need to switch the input shafts.
Anything else I am missing?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

If you want to bolt the LS1 F-body T56 to an LT1/LT4, it can be done without changing the input shaft but by doing other things.

How dedicated are you to shifter position and driveshaft length? Got a trans. already? Waaaaay too many variables and ways to make different combos work to narrow down your question.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

the '93 T56's are the ones you have to watch out for. Thats the M28 and M29 gear sets. These require much more substantial changes to make a F-body T56 work with an LSx based engine.

The 94-2002 F-body T56s can be converted back and forth pretty cheaply in comparison to a 93 T56.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I see. Thank you for the information.
I should have specified that I am looking for a t56 for my 89 Iroc. There is an LS1 T56 from a 98 trans am in the classifieds and I was wondering what it would take to convert it.
Its a good deal, is why I am asking.

EDIT

Forgot to ask another question;
I have the T5 master cyl w/ my pedals I got from the JY, Should I buy 1.25" cavelier slave and a 4th gen clutch line or get the whole 4th gen master/slave combo? Basically cost vs effectiveness.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Just find a 94-97 T56. 98-02 will require extra money on conversion parts. You need a input shaft and front cover for a LT1 T56. Then you'll need to source the clutch, pressure plate, PP bolts, flywheel bolts...etc. The LT1 Pressure Plate bolts are VERY specific and special. They are not the same as LS1 PP bolts.

I got a screamin' deal on LOTS of stuff, and I still had nearly $1k into the swap. This included the price for parts/labor to rebuild my M28 T56 which came out of a Cash For Clunkers car.

Be aware of the total cost, its not just the transmission.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Spend the $110 from Rock Auto and get the pre-bled assembled T56 hydraulics and avoid un-nessesary complications.

Also, use 4th gen pedals. While 3rd gen pedals work, they allow too much travel on the slave cylinder and might cause the clutch fork to dig into the PP if you aren't careful. Also engagement is right off the top.

DeltaElite121

if it's for the right price, it's definitely worth it. IIRC those conversion parts will set you back a few hundred dollars. Just depends how bad you want the transmission.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Its not a good enough deal that I would be willing to spend a couple hundred more converting it. I will wait and track down the right one.

I will purchase the master/slave from rockauto. Its $93, and your right, not worth the hassle of setting it all up for that price.

I got 3rd gen pedals from the JY, was worried about having to cut off the gas pedal and ream those holes at the top. Is it pretty straight forward?

I plan on purchasing Centerforce flywheel# 700107 when I find a transmission.

As for a clutch, I'm not sure. This tranny will go behind a stock L98. Don't plan to beat on it, its my DD. But I am sick of having to run 2.70's w/ a 700r4 to get 20mpg. I assume a stock 4th gen replacement would be just fine for my application?

I also assume summit will have the PP and flywheel bolts?


EDIT*

PP bolts
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-130-2201

Flywheel Bolts
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-2801

DeltaElite121

I've heard a lot of people had great success with RAM clutches. My buddy had one behind his 383 and it felt great. Not much different from stock. A little firmer on the pedal, but gripped a whole lot better.

if you plan on building the car, you definitely should buy a GOOD clutch now and get it done and over with. If your car is just going to be a cruiser, then a baseline standard aftermarket clutch will do you just fine.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

There is a 70$ difference between the Rhinopac and ACdelco clutch kits.
There is a 77$ difference between the ACdelco and the Ram 88516 kit.

So 147$ between the worst (cheapest) and the best (most expensive). Isn't that how it works?

Anyone have experience with Rhinopac? If not I'll go ACdelco. If ACdelco doesn't cut it, I'll be switching to RAM on my first clutch replacement.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Most LT1 pressure plate discs are the same anyway, regardless of brand or performance level. Allegedly some use different springs, I see no proof of this, but it's possible. They seem to rely on the clutch disc itself more to determine the grip level.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Nope, those PP bolts will not work. They are wrong. Notice the length of the shoulder in the picture below. This locates the pressure plate and centers it. Normal bolts won't have the shoulder and could cause a balance issue.

And me? I prefer having feet below my ankles. Stock LT1 PP bolts from GM can be re-used over and over. They aren't torque to yield.

The ones you want look like this:

jmd

iTrader: (4)

To answer your original question, the input shaft and it's bearing, the 94-97 front adapter plate, the counter and input bearings need re-shimmed (requiring teardown) and of course the bellhousing and clutch parts.

Worth it to changeover after selling leftover parts? Could be.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Haha, been down that road quite a few times now. No thanks.

That's interesting about the PP bolts. Why is it that none of the bolts on summit match that style bolt for a 95 V8 Camaro? Surly someone has to make them?

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

They are made by mcleod.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-1502

Picture is not what they look like. They are identical to what Thirdgen89GTA posted. I originally put mine together with regular hardware store bolts but have since gotten the proper bolts the last time I pulled it apart.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Great, good to know. I'll put those on the list!
Thanks

Question, how do you like your t56 with 3.27's?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Would be fine.

I can't speak to them in a thirdgen. My M28 has a very short first gear, 3.36:1 actually, with a 3.23 rear. For a 94-02 T56 to match that it would have to use a 4.10 rear. This is why despite going with a fairly large cam, I am not swapping out to a shorter rear ratio. 5th gear also hits 201mph @ 6800rpm. Which is very near where peak power will be made. Would be nice if i had enough power to break 200 in 5th.

Not that I'll ever get a chance to try unless I head to the Silver State Classic.

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

I have the M29 with the 2.97 first gear with 3.27 rear and it is a great combo as it is basically meant to be together. I do 75 in 6th at 2000 rpm. The later T56s are meant to be in front of 3.42 rear gears and have a taller 2.66 (stronger) first gear.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Interesting. So, it is reversed from the rear end. Numerically lower in the trans means more power/torque, higher RPM?

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

No the trans is the same as a rear. Numerally higher means shorter gear and more RPM. Pretty obvious when you think about it. Say on the M29 first gear is 2.97:1 where 4th is 1:1. You going faster in 4th than you are in 1st and at a lower RPM. The you have OD which is .80 and .62 on the M29 at an even lower RPM.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

To figure out the final drive its a series of reductions, or if you have an "overdrive" then the input RPM is slower than the output RPM hence the "over"

Example.

M28 T56 gearing with a 3.23 rear end.

Input RPM = 6000rpm
1st gear Output RPM Would be 6000 / 3.36 / 3.23 = 552.9rpm at the the tailshaft of the trans.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Right right, thats how I always figured it to be.
Just made and assumption and confused myself on a post above.

I have 3.42's from a 4th gen. I have heard mixed reviews on that vs 3.73's with the later t56's. I'll probably end up using the 3.42 as I'm looking more for a cruiser.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

There are obviously lots of variations, but I think from 94+ the F-bodies ALL got a 2.66 first gear. That's why I think EVERYONE should have at least 3.73's in a T56 car unless their engine is COMPLETELY stock. Any kind of cam and 3.73's are the bare minimum. The problem is the 10-bolt gears become weak sauce at 4+ ratios. But you could easily get away with a 4.56 geared T56 car and do plenty of highway cruising. I dont think 4.56's even get you above 2000 RPM at 70 mph.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Thats only if you think in terms of a street/strip drag racing application.

For Road Course work Anything over 3.73's is useless if its a high speed track, you'd run out of gear.

A 3.42 axel 4th gen F-body starts hitting the rev limiter at 145mph or so in 4th at before the end of the straight at Road America.

Its all about what you want.

Me? I'm not moving away from my 3.23's.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

No drag strip or racing here. Of course, the occasional stop light action but that's about it.

I just love cruising. The 4th gen came stock with the 3.42. Must be alright?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

3.42 Manual 6 Speed on all 4th gen after 93 IIRC 93 had 3.23 and different gear ratio for first i believe also dont qoute me i could be wrong then all 94 and onward switch to 3.42

2.73 , 3.23 Auto

Option code
2.73 GU2 and 3.23 GU5

If its all stock aluminum drivershafts got 3.23 ...steel 2.73

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tra...-pictures.html

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

LT1
93 2.73
1st: 3.36
2nd: 2.07
3rd: 1.35
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.80
6th: 0.62

93 3.23
1st: 2.97
2nd: 2.07
3rd: 1.43
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.80
6th: 0.62

94-97 3.42
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.50

LS1
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.50

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I believe I will be sticking with the 3.42 set and try and find a 94-97 t56. I just get that warm fuzzy inside about that combo

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

i had same setup totally transformed how the camaro felt , you will love it

get 4th gen pedals i didnt like the high pedal that the 3rd gen gave me but thats me and is a subjective option, unless you modify 3rd gen pedals or run adj. master cylinder or if you like a high pedal then its all peachy
Thats the only thing i really played around with untill i got it right

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Just for the sake of asking, is the centerforce # 700107 flywheel the only option for this conversion?

EDIT
I just was reading and answered my own question. Amazing how that works right?
So pre-86 blocks are 2 piece main's? Which would mean the stock LT1 flywheel would work perfect for my application. (89 block)
Good deal.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

you are correct can use stock lt1 flywheel
unless its for some odd reason a 2 main

make sure you get correct pressure plate bolts as stated above as auto store dont carry the correct one

and if your missing some bellhousing to trans bolt ensure you get the correct length M10x1.50x40 any longer you will get interference with pressure plate

lt1 starter bolts right up might need to align it abit cant use a auto starter as the snout is abit bigger

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

locktite on the PP and flywheel bolts?

I was going to ask about internal / external balance stuff but after reading about it, I think I need to go take a nap

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Yes locktite on pp and flywheel dont want them to back out as you dont torque them down very much and it is possible

i used red loctite

i here you can use blue also

internal balance of ?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Well I searched this but just got a bunch of information I was not able to make sense of.
Mounting the Flywheel in relation to the crankshaft and the pressure plate in relation to both of those. Is it just, "bolt it all up" and it'll work?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

thats what happens when searching got weed out all the bad info thats but out there good thing Thirdgen isnt that bad, LS1Tech on the other hand is a pain at times gees i hardly ever try to search over there for good info

i wont go into detail as there threads for that but
just bolt it up lol
of course resurface flywheel and put in pilot bushing
bolt up flywheel then pressure plate/ clutch assembly

then bolt up trans

ive found it easier to bolt up bell housing to engine with out trans attach
then bolt up trans to bellhousing

i did full swap by myself so its easy as cake i was tired as hell but its a gravy

these are the threads you need all others are just not on par
got to read a little for this one but reading is good lol
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ap-thread.html

short and sweet
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...swap-made.html

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I couldnt stand trying to drive my car around with 3.27's. I've got a pretty small cam. It doesnt mind crusing at 1200 RPMs. And I still thought it was a chore to get the thing rolling with a stock clutch. I wouldn't want to do it agian. If it was a race car and I didnt have to drive it around on the road, that'd be a different story.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

3.23's let 4th gear top out at 160mph, and 5th is good to 200mph with the M28 T56. Redline on my new build is 7k. Cam won't make power that high, probably closer to 6500-6700. I don't think the car will do 200, but 5th will certainly be usable if I ever go north of 160.

M28 T56 gear ratios...

1st - 3.36
2nd - 2.07
3rd - 1.35
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.8
6th - 0.62

The 1st gear 3.36 is what lets me get away with 3.23's and the big cam. The combination of the 3.36 and 3.23 is like a newer 94+ T56 with the 2.66 running 4.10s.

3.36 * 3.23 = 10.85:1

2.66 * 4.10 = 10.91:1

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Well, got my 4th gen pedals installed today! Can't believe how those fit in there, like a glove! Little drilling here and there and voila! Only thing that kind of gave me fits was that vacuum switch. But just required a tiny bit of thinking.

I have a set of 3rd gen pedals also that I may try if I dont like how the 4th gen pedals work. I have read so many opinions on 4th vs 3rd pedals that I grabbed both from the JY. I did not grind off the 1/8" spacers on the back of the 4th gen pedals like some said to do. I figured, it was designed with the spacer for a reason.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Question,
The clutch pedal has a spot for a switch. Would this be for cruise disengagement?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Starter Enable Switch.

When the pedal is pressed the switch closes allowing power to flow to the starter.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You mean the neutral safety switch?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Technically its not a Neutral Safety Switch. Trans can be in gear while you start the car as long as the clutch is depressed. Same function.

I think the parts stores call it a clutch safety switch on Manuals.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Basically same thing different name

As long it works !

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Ahh, That was the giant switch on the back of the pedal assembly. (on 4th gen pedals) When depressed all the way, pedal contacts the switch and closes the circuit. Can this be wired to the park/neutral sensor in the automatic gear selector plug? Or do i have to hack apart my starter relay wiring under the dash and daisy chain it in?

The switch I was actually talking about is the one on the front of the pedal assembly (furthest from the firewall). Two small gauge wires to a switch, I would assume it's for cruise.

nosajwols

iTrader: (1)

There should be two clutch switches. The one at the "bottom" is the neutral safety switch, pretty straight forward, car will not start unless it is engaged. The one at the top is the clutch "anticipation" switch, I assume this is for the computer to know you have started to press the clutch for cruise or other reasons.

Depending on what you are doing you may only need the safety/bottom one.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

My T56 swap operates without either.

For "anticipation" thats my right foot.

For the safety switch? Thats my brain.

It was disabled on my car before I bought it, and well, I've never accidentally started it in gear. Got this habit of shaking the shifter before I ever put my hand on the key making sure its not in gear.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

im lazy and dont want to re write anything

"at the end of post under wiring"
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...222-post1.html
also
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...-thread-3.html
Cruise if i remember correctly doesnt have to do anything with the clutch it deals more with the brake as thirgen uses a vacume type setup for cruise

to make things easier you can transfer you sensors on your thirdgen pedals to the 4th gen instead of trying to re wire everything


Automatic wiring harnesse to shifter
only thing you would have to worry about is clutch
"-The top two (biggest wire) Yellow and Purple go to the clutch pedal switch. Just match the colors, this makes it so the clutch has to be pushed in to start the car."

Reverse light right side of t56
"-The next two Blue and Green wires in the harness go to your reverse lights, wire them to the two wire connector on the passenger side of the T56. I was missing the pigtail, so I cut the one that went to the automatic and used it."

No Use
"-The next two wires Black and Orange, tape up and aren't used. They signal the computer that it's in park and neutral. We want it to think it's in drive all the time. "

Reverse Lockout
wire to the brake switch ( so you have to press brake pedal to put trans into reverse)




i have the same habit lol

you only need the black switch when fully depressing clutch looks more like a button

thirdgen clutch switch is white and is mounted above clutch pedal

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

This is exactly what I did when I put my pedals in. Everything is tested/works great. Wish I had a transmission now so I could use them! Soon, soon...


Thank you for the links. I did not mean to turn this into a "what do I need for my t56 swap" thread. I have 18 different T56 swap links bookmarked, I'll get to researching again! It is very clear that ALL of the info for this swap is readily available on TGO. Love this place.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

lol its all good one question leads to another and so on atleast your on track lol

TGO is is actually pretty decent forum not pointing any forums out but there kinda a pain to go thru

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Yeah the only reason I bring it up is because I always remembered seeing it referred to as the neutral safety switch and Im pretty sure that's what the parts stores have it logged as. So I just wanted the OP to be aware that it's the same thing... but you had me going for a minute and I wasnt entirely sure it was... wanted to make sure I didnt forget something obvious.

Either way I agree with your nomenclature. Clearly a more accurate description of its purpose and operation.