Okay first off, Merry Christmas.

Today I finally had some more time to do some work to my Camaro. It's been on jack stands for about 2 weeks since I had to change the fuel pump and do some other stuff.

Anyways, I believe I found out my input shaft is damaged and would like some advice on how to proceed. I believed I had a damaged throwout bearing due to an intermittant grinding sound with the clutch enaged (depressed), so I bought a clutch kit and decided to tackle the job.

After finally getting my transmission down today, I found out the throwout bearing was perfectly fine, and the clutch disk had a lot of life left on it.

However, peering inside past the disk, I noticed a whole bunch of metal flakes and it seemed the pilot bearing was complete toast.

I then took a look at the input shaft and it looked like this:


Unfortunately, this looks horribly chewed up to me.

I decided to take the input shaft off to see if there was any damage on the main shaft/bearing, but upon taking the input shaft off this is what it looks like:









I have never messed with the internals of a transmission before, so I don't know exactly what to look for, but everything seems like it's in great shape to me. Before taking the transmission down, I had NO troubles with shifting or anything else besides the intermittent grinding noise.


I am pretty sure that the pilot bearing got destroyed because when I purchased the car, I found out the transmission was missing the TWO bolts connecting it to the bottom of the bellhousing, and it was oriented at a slight angle do to this. I had to drive the car home so it was driven about 40 miles before I got to inspect underneath. After getting new bolts and changing fluid, everything seemed good, besides the issues I mentioned earlier. The car was horribly neglected otherwise (cosmetically at least) but seemed to be mechanically sound. I drove the car for about 1200 miles before I had time to take the transmission down, so it may have been wearing down this whole time.


Anyways, my questions regarding my issue are:

1) Is this input shaft repairable and if so, what should I expect to pay and how long to wait to get it done? (Or can I do it myself?)

2) If the shaft is repairable, based on the condition of the bearings/shims etc, can I reuse everything and bolt it back up once repaired?

3) if the shaft is not repairable, can I just get away with purchasing a new input shaft/bearings and install them back on my transmission?


I haven't taken the cover off to inspect the rest of the gears, but I have had no issue with the gears at all, and I am a little intimidated by taking the tailshaft off etc. I have broken the seal on the top of the tranny, but then realized I have to do more work to take the cover off. The input shaft retainer/cover thing (that the throwout bearing rides over) did not seem to have any wear either.

Any help/advice on what I should do would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: I forgot to mention more specific specs. The Camaro is a 91, V8 305 TBI with about 160K miles. I believe it was always a manual transmission car, but believe this transmission is not the original one (based on incorrect speedometer readings and other signs of a transmission being removed.) I think the previous owned (who owned it for about 2 months) said the owner before him said the transmission was just replaced.

 

if it were my car, i would replace the shaft ... only other way i can see fixing it would be to add more metal to it (welding) then have it turned on a lathe back to factory specs ... or have it turned down to an undersize and "sleeve" it to the correct size ... or have it turned down to an undersize and get a thicker pilot bushing to make up for the missing metal on the shaft ... if you go down in shaft size, you make a weaker shaft, and to weld and turn it back to spec would most likely cost more than a good used shaft ... just my opinion though

 

That clutch gear (the actual name for the "input shaft") is not repairable. Gotta replace it.

The whole transmission is suffering severely from metal chips. The tip of the mainshaft has GOBS of em all ground into it. It needs a mainshaft too.

Look closely at the 2 sides of each gear tooth on the clutch gear. Note that on the drive side, i.e. the teeth on the left-hand portion of the gear in your 4th pic, there's metal chips ground into the teeth surface, and you can see where they've been misaligned to the teeth of the countergear, which has left a sort of "groove" in the gear with metal chips embedded in their surface where the teeth meshed with the countergear teeth. Compare to the right-hand portion of the gear teeth in the same pic, which is the "back" side of the teeth, which don't handle engine power. You'll be replacing the clutch gear, which will fix those particular ones; but, the mating teeth on the countergear, will have EXACTLY the same wear on them. It's toast too.

A good question to ask would be, where did all the metal chips come from. What does the reverse gear look like? Did this transmission suffer from a driver that didn't put it in a forward gear before shifting into reverse?

That poor thing is in really horrible shape. IMO not an economically effective candidate for a rebuild, with all those damaged parts. With all the metal chip damage, it's not even a good core, for salvaging parts out of to build some other transmission with. I've got a shelf FULL of transmissions like that, that I haven't thrown away yet.

If I had pulled that out of a car I had just bought, I'd be looking for another transmission rather than trying to fix that one. I'd recommend the same for you.

 

Looks like an 83-87 14 spline V6 T5. But you said it worked okay for a while.

If you have a lathe, turn it down and hardened bushing pressed on will buy time.

Would I put much more effort into a V6 T5 for a 305? No. But if it worked a while and you're on a budget, that is what you might do. Plan ahead for something better. And drop me a line if you want me to look at it.

 

Thanks for all the replies and info. I saw the posts at work today and was a little upset that my situation is worse than I thought.

I talked to some semi local guy over the phone on my break at work today and he informed me that my transmission is a V6 tranny.

He did have a replacement input shafts for a V6, so I figure I will buy one off of him, install it, and not mess with anything else. The transmission did work well for everything I used it for before, but I know now that I'll need to be looking for a replacement when I get this one up and running.

Becasue I'm on a budget now, I'll have to make this do in the meantime. I'm not sure how long this one will last, but hopefully it will get me buy until I can find another transmission.


Because a new transmission is in the order within the year, what would your guys' opinion be on getting a new one?

Should I go with a v8 World Class T5 (if I can find one, they seem kinda rare here in AZ), or should I look at swapping in a T56?

I don't know how much a T56 swap would be, and I can't really spend a whole bunch, but maybe it is worth saving up for.

 

Yes a newer transmission would be better.

I SURELY DO wish people would quit with the "World Class" BS, although I know we're stuck with it. How that stoooopid "TQM" "PIT Team" Six Sigma" whatever whatever whatever buzzword, ever got "officially" applied as the designation of the 2nd design of that transmission, I'll never know; but it sounds like the Marketing Dept's summer intern had taken a class about it in the spring semester, and the "boss" had never heard the buzzword before (probably had his head stuck up his rectum), and decided that it sounded "trendy", "hip", "modern", etc. Think of it as the mid-80s equivalent of naming a product the "i" something or "e" something today. All it means is, the revision of the T-5 that was released by B-W in about 1986 or 7, and was adopted by GM in about 1988. The 2nd design. It does NOT mean that such a transmission is any "better", "different", "more desirable", etc., than its predecessor, except to the extent that they had learned a thing or 2 (mostly about how to make it get slightly better gas mileage) about their product, and made a couple of slight changes to it.

ALL T-5s in GM cars from about 88 up are the {ppp} W.... {pppp} Wo..... {pppppppppuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkke} "World Class" version. So yes, since it's a slightly improved design, and would likely be several years newer and therefore lower mileage, you want to locate a 88-up T-5 from a Camaro or Firebird. If your car has a 6-cyl, then a 6-cyl trans like you have now, would be fine. If it's a V8, then you ought to look for a V8 one, and put a V8 clutch disc in it too.

 

IIRC, "WC" nomenclature came from the mudstain camp (i rebuilt those things A LOT back in the day)
With the price of a upgraded or new t5, I'd look at a t56 swap in a heartbeat..
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aw...snsaAkdD8P8HAQ

 

Not really... It came from some airhead at B-W that evidently thought they were "making a statement" in the trendy language of the day. Frod simply changed over to the 2nd design a year or 2 before GM did. I guess testing, warranty concerns, CAFE, emissions, etc. took GM's bureaucracy even longer to work through than Frod's.

 

I have heard a of people dislike the T5 transmissions so I didn't think the newer "world class" transmissions were much more desirable really. But potentially being more fuel efficient would be nice.

However, once I get this transmission back up and running, I'll probably save up for a T56 swap. I hope the transmission will last me long enough to save up for the swap. Either that or if I find a super good deal on a newer V8 T5 I'll take it, but I see more T56s for sale on craigslist and eBay then I see T5s so that probably won't happen.

I'm having someone install a used input shaft on mine now. I figured I didn't want to mess with shimming the input shaft since I don't have shims, have never shimmed before, and wouldn't want to risk wearing/damaging the transmission more than it already is damaged in case I do it wrong.

On a good note, my Bronco has been getting about 16.8 miles a gallon! That's the best it's ever got, and it's got 33 inch tires and a small lift. I'll need to work on the camaro to get its mpg up when I get more time/ money.

 

I didn't realize the account on my phone (Crumbly_Jiub) was a different one than my computer. Anyways, the guy ended up replacing some forks, input shaft bearings, and shimming it along with the new shaft and it was still only 100 bucks.

I'm going to put syncromesh fluid in and hope for the best. I post back up when I get it running (maybe tonight, but it's already dark and cold.)

 

It was probably in BWs press release to frod and the mustang mag guys because I was reading about it in the mudstain rags long b4 it was a GM thing.
However, the WC does have some decent improvements to the internals to help increase its strength and lower its drag a tad with all the bearings instead of bushings in the NON-WC.

 

Yup, using that stoooooopid 80s buzzword as the product's actual "name" was B-W's idea.

Of course, "non-WC" didn't exist; that would be about like assuming the ancient Romans counted their years as "B.C.".

You're right, Frod adopted the 2nd design a yr or 2 before GM did. Not sure why GM continued to specify the old design for as long as they did. Frod was not responsible for the idea of applying the buzzword to it though.

 

For a T56 swap, make sure you get as many pieces with the trans or you'll be nickel and dime-ing yourself into a blown budget.

Pedal assembly - Your original 3rd gen pedals should work. Otherwise, for 4th gen pedals, with the trans is nice. Separate transaction works fine,too.
Hydraulics - the hose on the 3rd gen isn't long enough. You may buy new, or get a Tick master, so this is not as critical.
Trans package - besides the trans itself, get the;

• flywheel,
• clutch/pressure plate (re-used may work for a while to let the budget recover, or buy new),
• pressure plate bolts (LT1 specific and NOT "just bolts that fit". See this.),
• bellhousing,
• trans-to-bellhousing bolts
• reuse your bell-to-block bolts
• slave extension (little aluminum piece),
• throwout fork,
• dust cover,
• shifter.

Other parts you will probably get new or replace;

• pilot bearing/bushing,
• trans mount,
• cross member (purchase aftermarket swap piece, or fab your own)
• wiring/pigtails - existing reverse light switch should work, reverse lockout solenoid, VSS

Two other hurdles:
- Controlling the reverse lockout. The Samoco module is $100 and is IMHO the "best" way to do it, vs brake light activated, or clipping the spring.
- Mechanical vs electronic speedo. Search TGO for alloy and T56 conversion, such as here, here, or Dan/Alloy's website here.

 

Joe's point about getting all the little parts & pieces besides the trans is a good one; a bunch of that stuff is either unavailable separately, or is $$$$$. It'll kill you trying to piece it all together. GM has discontinued a bunch of it, as those cars are all over 15 yrs old now.

The pre-filled and pre-bled hyd assy is also available from GM & rockauto.com for the T-56.

When I swapped a T-56 into my car, I just removed the reverse lockout solenoid altogether. I don't find it particularly difficult to simply not put the car in reverse while driving down the road, any more than any of the 3-, 4-, and 5-speeds I've driven for the last 40 yrs or so.

Got rid of the "skip shift" solenoid as well when I installed mine. You can leave it in and just not hook it up, but there's no point in leaving all that dead weight hanging off your car.

The T-5 dust cover will fit the T-56 bell housing if you drill 2 holes in the already-present matching tabs in the T-56 BH.

Trans mount is the same for T-56 as for T-5.

Crossmember is different between the 2. The stock T-56 one will not work. Gotta get or make a T-56 "swap" crossmember.

Stock T-56 flywheel will work on a 86-up 305/350. Gotta have a "special" "swap" flywheel for 85-back motors.

I don't know of any way to get a mech speedo to work other than Alloy's conversion (if he's even still doing it). Jags That Run used to do em but they quit offering it at least 10 years ago. For a car with electronic speedo (91 TBI car should be such a one), a conversion box such as Dakota Digital works; just gotta divide the pulse train down from 17 pulses per rev to either 2 or 4 depending on which one your car needs. (early TPI needs 2/rev, TBI needs 4/rev, not sure if or when TPI ever changed to 4/rev)

This is for the LT1 version of the T-56. The LS1 version is a bit different. I'm no expert on the details of that one.

 

Awesome, thank you for all the useful info!

Compard to all the other options, a t56 swap is definitely what I want for the future.

I will probably accumulate some of the stuff slowly, or save money slowly then try to purchase everything at once. Since my Camaro is a 91, I have an electronic speedometer, so I'll look into the Dakoda Digital unit for a TBI.

A guy here in Arizona (Tucson, so kinda far from me but I could manage driving there) is selling a T56 for it looks like 900. It apparently has around only 50k miles on it, but it doesn't appear that he has the bellhousing, bolts, throwout fork etc.

I'm not sure if 900 is a good deal without all those parts, but it doesn't seem too bad to me. I could probably spare 900 in my budget within the month however, so in a few weeks if he still has it, I may drive down and buy it if you guys think 900 would be good without all the other necessary parts. Otherwise, I'll just keep saving up.


Some other news. I finally finished putting in my transmission and bolting everything else back together (from my fuel pump job, I did that and the trans at the same time) and was able to take it for a test drive. I added penzoil syncromesh fluid in this time instead of mobil 1 synth ATF or gear oil. The transmission shifts super smooth now, better than any manual I've driven before actually. It seems that I may be able to get by on this transmission for a while now, so hopefully it lends me some more time to save up for the T56. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to get the T56, and have this transmission as a spare to mount in something else I get in the future. I suppose the real test will be when I have to take it on the highway tomorrow for work. I made sure to have the car idle for about 7 minutes, then drive it around for about 6 miles to help "break in" the transmission after it was semi-freshened up. It had some assembly lube in it and stuff so I was told to take it easy initially.

 

Best way to get a T-56 these days is to buy a whole car with everything still in it.

Don't try to piece it together, it'll drive you crazy and you'll have a REAL TOUGH time coming up with it all. Low price is NOT your friend in this situation: reason the price is low, is all too likely because it's not all there and nobody will buy it at the "normal" price.

When I was in Phoenix the other day I drove down a road with about 30 junkyards on it, in the stretch of about 3 miles. Kinda southwest of the center of town, on the way from the airport to the Laveen area somewhere. I'd suggest you go there.

 

Hmm okay well I'll definitely keep that in mind then. I know there is a road south west of phoenix that has an incredible amount of junk yards. I think it's Broadway or something. Anyways I'll definitely check there. Too bad I live on the other side of the valley, but it's very scenic out here so I really like it.

Since I'm still in college (only 1 year left!), I'm still living at home. I didn't know if my parents would be too happy when I brought home the Camaro (especially when it was half grey and flaking, basically looked like I got it from a junk yard), but they didn't seem to be upset, especially now that I painted it and done some other work so it is a pretty nice looking vehicle now.

However, if I brought home a donor vehicle for the tranny swap, I think they might get a little upset. If I only had it there a few days it might be okay, but I don't want to push my luck.

Now if I could find a donor vehicle in a junkyard, and take everything from it while I was there, that would be good. Would junk yard prices for that stuff be much over 1000?

 

Best advice ever and I agree 100%

 

I just thought of this question in the meantime since I have to stay with my T5 for a while now.

I have an electric speedo. When I first bought the car, the harness to the VSS on the transmission was cut. I got the end of the harness from a junkyard for an electric speedo and spliced and plugged it in. This worked to get the speedo to register, but it was off by a certain percentage, so I know I need a new driven gear (hopefully just driven gear) for the VSS.

Even though I have an older T5 tranny, since the speedo harness plugged into the VSS, does that mean I should be looking for an electric speedo driven gear? Or would I need to get a mechanical one?

Is it possible that the tailshafts have been swapped to accommodate the electronic VSS compared to the cable driven one? I'm new to this gear stuff, and recall reading that the older camaros (from 89 down) with the T5s had mechanical speedos, and they used a cable that plugged into the tranny, not a wiring harness.

 

You are correct: Early (pre-90?) T5s had a gear-cable drive for the mechanical speedo. 90+ have a gear-VSS with wiring and either 2k or 4k per mile pulses.

Check out these threads for pics, info, and links to possible gear sources. The last link has really good info and pics.
here
here
and here.

 

The third gen uses speedo gears to drive the 86-up Firebird and 90-up Camaro VSS. The tailhousing hole is offset from the output shaft.

Other applications used a reluctor wheel VSS where the VSS is right in line with the output and reluctor wheel.

 

Awesome info thank you for the links!

I suppose I'll be looking for an electronic driven gear then. I'm not sure what drive gear I have, but maybe I can peek in when I take off my VSS housing. From what I understand according to the info on the links, the electronic VSS can be installed in the place of the mechanical housing, so that's what must have been done on my Camaro since its an older T5, but accepts the electronic plug. I sure hope I don't have to change the driven gear because taking off the tail-housing doesn't seem like it will be too much fun.

I just have to figure out my rear end gear ratio, and look up the size of my rear tires. I don't think finding the gear ratio is too hard and I know there are some pages out there to run me through what to do, I just have to find and read them first!

 

Don't worry if you do. Removing the T5 is not that difficult. Removing the tailhousing isn't much harder:

• remove shifter
• drive out roll pin holding shifter block to shaft
• remove 5 (or more) bolts holding the tailhousing to the main case.
• remove tailhousing. You may have to wiggle a little to clear reverse gear
• installation is reverse of removal.

 

This intermittent grinding. What do you think it was and why?

 

I'm pretty sure the grinding type sound was coming from the input shaft. The part of the shaft that would normally rest in the pilot bearing was worn down considerably that it's diameter was a bit smaller than it should have been. On top of that, the pilot bearing inner race was completely missing, so only the outer race of the bearing was there. This had to have made it so the shaft could bounce around a whole bunch in the remainder of the pilot bearing if the clutch was not engaged, making a rattling/grinding type sound.

It only happened when the clutch was disengaged (pedal pressed), which I think makes sense because since the pilot bearing was not holding the input shaft in place, when the clutch was disengaged, the disk wouldn't be locked in position between the flywheel and pressure plate.

It's totally gone now, and I made sure to get a good quality bushing in place of where the bearing went.

The transmission does seem to whine a little in the gears, which it did before. I've read some people say the whining is fine and they have had no issues with it, but others say it means the transmission is on it's way out. The transmission probably isn't in the best shape it could be, but I hope it lasts me a while until I can save up for a T-56 swap. The tranny isn't leaking currently so that's a good sign.

 

Some noise is normal in a manual even when the factory shifter boot is in place.

Watch for leaks at the area by trans./bell meeting point. And save up.

 

Thanks for the detailed response Bubba- see mine is doing the same. Thing is if that was the cause it would be far more frequent- on mine it is once every so often (with clutch engaged). We are talking once every 200 miles or so. If it was caused by the input shaft in a similar state it would be near enough every time you pooped the clutch.

 

No problem ZZ42Fast. I would not have expected the input shaft to be the way it was when I took mine apart. Based on how it looked, it seems that I should have heard the noise much more frequently, basically every time I depressed the clutch like you said, but it really only happened when I was inching forwards in first or backwards having the clutch partially engaged.

I did hear the noise once in second and third, but it was also when I was going slow and had the clutch partially engaged. The noise didn't happen every time I was engaging the clutch either, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 the time. Pretty much every other time I was parking I heard the noise.

Now that I think of it, I never heard the noise if I disengaged the clutch (pushed pedal down) and didn't press the gas, but if I had the clutch partially disengaged to fully disengaged (like while inching in to park), and was feathering the gas, I heard it about half the time. So it only made the noise if I had the gas pressed and clutch pressed at the same time.

When I would take off from a stop light, I never heard it.



So potentially you could have something of the same issue going on, just not as sever. Maybe you'll get lucky and just have a worn bushing or a pilot bearing that is messed up that hasn't chewed up your input shaft yet.

Otherwise, maybe you throwout bearing is on it's way out too. I was surprised how easy it was to take down the T5 transmission compared to my Bronco and my neighbors F-150 (he had the same tranny in a truck 12 years newer.) The worst part about it is putting the car on jack stands if you don't have a lift, then taking the shift lever cover off from inside the car was next. That really wasn't hard at all though.

If you get a free weekend or something, I think it may be worth your time to take your tranny down and inspect/replace the throw-out and pilot bearings just to ensure something like what happened to mine doesn't happen. You honestly could probably take it down and put it back up in 4-5 hours if everything goes semi-smoothly.

 

Thanks Bubba. Good luck with yours!!

 

I have some more questions and opinions I want to clarify because I may be purchasing a T56 this Friday and don't want to get too far into it if it's a bad idea.

I talked to a guy who has a T-56 with a rebuild with about 1k miles on it. I don't know everything he has, but I think he has most of what I need for the swap.

He does NOT have the flywheel though, so I was wondering if I can purchase a standard flywheel at a parts store and bolt it up to my 305.

I know earlier MoJoe said this previously for what I should get:

-------------------------------------------------------------
flywheel,

clutch/pressure plate (re-used may work for a while to let the budget recover, or buy new),

pressure plate bolts (LT1 specific and NOT "just bolts that fit". See this (LT1 pressure plate bolts....being made again).),

bellhousing,

trans-to-bellhousing bolts

reuse your bell-to-block bolts

slave extension (little aluminum piece),

throwout fork,

dust cover,

shifter.


Other parts you will probably get new or replace;

pilot bearing/bushing,

trans mount,

cross member (purchase aftermarket swap piece, or fab your own)

wiring/pigtails - existing reverse light switch should work, reverse lockout solenoid, VSS

--------------------------------------------------

I have an electronic aftermarket speedo now, so as long as I can get a pulse signal from the T56, I will have no problem getting the speedo to work correctly.

The guy said 1300 for the transmission setup, so I would like to get that if it comes with everything except the flywheel. If it's missing more parts, I may skip on it.

What in that list would be okay if he doesn't have? Like can I buy the flywheel bolts and slave extension (or new hydraulic assembly) and pivot fork new or from ebay, or will some of these things be too hard to find. Also, I just put a new pilot bushing in when I put in the T5, will this bushing work, or do I need a different size?



Sorry for all the questions, I'm just try to see if I should get into this or not with my tax return money. The other option is an 85 V8 T5 that apparently is good to go, which would be better than my pre 88 V6 T5. The T5 person is only asking 275 for his transmission, so its pretty tempting too.

 

If it is an LT1 T56, it is pretty ideal to easily swap into the 3rd gen. Other models have other challenges for fitment.

One main thing is stock LB9 and rear gearing isn't well matched to the 94-97 T56. If you have plans to do a larger engine and rear gears, great. If you are thinking it is a great trans. to run with the LB9, it is not. BTDT.

Get pictures and the service tag number from the one you're considering. If he has most parts other than flywheel, that's a fair price. But the devil is in the details.

Yes the pilot bearing is the same.

 

Hmm okay thank you for the information.

I'm going to check it out tomorrow and see. I believe its a 96 T-56, but I'll check it out more. The only things I've done to my 305 are add an open air filter and full 3" exhaust with hooker 2055 headers.

I didn't have plans anytime soon to swap the motor or gears though. Eventually I would like to, but not for a few years.

Would the T56 feel better than a pre 88 V6 T5 transmission gear ratio wise?

If the T56 will make the car lug and feel like it has no power.. I'm not sure if I should jump on the trans or not then. The speed and power my car has now feels good with me (of course I would like more, but I don't go to drag strips, I use it as a daily driver.)

Someone is selling an 85 V8 T5 I may get instead. My V6 T5 is holding up well after the new input shaft, but I have to shift very quickly due to the gearing of the transmission.

My friend just purchased an 88 305 camaro with the stock WC T5 and it feels much better than my car. I don't know how similar a pre WC V8 T5 feels in comparison, but the one I was looking at is only 275.