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well car was almost done lol...the GM 9 bolt is making noise so time to upgrade putting in a 12 bolt strange, 3.54 gears and a 3 inch chrome molly driveshaft should hold lol....
Less efficient ? ok there strong tho not looking for an all out race car something that can be raced of course just want something strong/.
Not rebuilding the stock rear by the time your done might as well buy a built rear for it
If you are paying someone to do all the work then maybe...... if you are WAY overpaying for labor. Raw parts cost is about $1200 for the 9 bolt with all rebuild parts, Torsen, 3.7 gears, etc. It's significantly cheaper..... the Strange unit is going to be $3000+ with shipping, you have to figure out the brakes, a driveline upgrade is required, and still pay for install so I would say even paying for labor it's going to be between double and triple the cost of an upgraded 9 bolt.
And yes the 12 bolt is larger and heavier and will suck up more power.
You aren't going to break an upgraded 9 bolt on street tires. There's not enough traction to break it.
This is NOT the 10 bolt. The same old rules don't apply to the 9 bolt. It is significantly better. It's much more like the late 4th gen rears with 28 spline axles and a Torsen. Those cars were 350 HP LS1's from the factory and even the upgraded 10 bolt's are fine. The 9 bolt is a step up from that.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-12-2020 at 04:29 PM.
If you are paying someone to do all the work then maybe...... if you are WAY overpaying for labor. Raw parts cost is about $1200 for the 9 bolt with all rebuild parts, Torsen, 3.7 gears, etc. It's significantly cheaper..... the Strange unit is going to be $3000+ with shipping, you have to figure out the brakes, a driveline upgrade is required, and still pay for install so I would say even paying for labor it's going to be between double and triple the cost of an upgraded 9 bolt.
And yes the 12 bolt is larger and heavier and will suck up more power.
You aren't going to break an upgraded 9 bolt on street tires. There's not enough traction to break it.
This is NOT the 10 bolt. The same old rules don't apply to the 9 bolt. It is significantly better. It's much more like the late 4th gen rears with 28 spline axles and a Torsen. Those cars were 350 HP LS1's from the factory and even the upgraded 10 bolt's are fine. The 9 bolt is a step up from that.
GD
You would be surprised at what its costing parts and labor... and its behind a 383 stroker..built 700r4 ,9.5 vigilanter billet 2600 stall convertor...and it will be going supercharger car has a holley HP efi system controlling it...it were going to spend money ill do something i know wont break...i like the 9 bolt but not enough to keep it...
I have an old Strange 12-bolt built 20 years ago. It's been a good unit, quiet (I'm lucky), and working fine with a manual trans, drag radial, and high torque LS stroker engines. C-clip eliminators constantly weep grease onto the wheels. No compatibility issues with stock style suspension parts.
I think Strange now uses a different axle flange and end bearings so maybe doesn't weep grease. I don't think it will accept 3rd gen brakes any more like mine will. (But that's a benefit, not a drawback. LOL!)
I have an old Strange 12-bolt built 20 years ago. It's been a good unit, quiet (I'm lucky), and working fine with a manual trans, drag radial, and high torque LS stroker engines. C-clip eliminators constantly weep grease onto the wheels. No compatibility issues with stock style suspension parts.
I think Strange now uses a different axle flange and end bearings so maybe doesn't weep grease. I don't think it will accept 3rd gen brakes any more like mine will. (But that's a benefit, not a drawback. LOL!)
We just did all UMI suspension he said it will bolt right up to the strange which is good ..he is using 93-97 LT1 rear disc brakes...and using a 3 inch chrome moly driveshaft.
I installed a Moser 12 bolt setup just abotu a year ago (March 2019). had moser build it and I installed it in an afternoon. 3" axle tubes, 3.55 gear ratio, chrome moly yoke, detroit trutrack, ford style "big end" bearings, 1/2" arp wheel studs, 33 spline axles (no c clips), powdercoated black. etc. ran my own brake lines onthe housing with copper-nickle, re-used my C4 12" rotor PBR brake kit frome d miller who sent me over the proper backing plates for free.
-also installed a super strong 3" driveshaft from Denny's Driveshafts
You would be surprised at what its costing parts and labor... and its behind a 383 stroker..built 700r4 ,9.5 vigilanter billet 2600 stall convertor...and it will be going supercharger car has a holley HP efi system controlling it...it were going to spend money ill do something i know wont break...i like the 9 bolt but not enough to keep it...
Doubt I would be "surprised" by the price. I do this for a living every day at my shop and on my DynoJet. Doesn't change the fact that it will be twice the price (or more) than a built 9 bolt. Unless the stuff is used.
And we'll see what that combo makes. It's not the easiest thing in the world to put together a winning combo of heads, cam, intake, and exhaust or have it properly tuned to all function perfectly together. Everyone thinks they are going to make stupid amounts of power from their build and the honest truth is that a LOT of these small block builds have real trouble breaking 300 to the wheels because it doesn't take much of a mistake to kill a lot of power.
EVERYONE shows up at the dyno with the idea their combo is going to make more than it does. Some are just more disappointed than others. And many have to come back another day because they overlooked something, or it broke on the rollers, or they don't have enough fuel, etc. Happens about 80% of the time with customer builds.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-12-2020 at 10:15 PM.
Doubt I would be "surprised" by the price. I do this for a living every day at my shop and on my DynoJet. Doesn't change the fact that it will be twice the price (or more) than a built 9 bolt. Unless the stuff is used.
And we'll see what that combo makes. It's not the easiest thing in the world to put together a winning combo of heads, cam, intake, and exhaust or have it properly tuned to all function perfectly together. Everyone thinks they are going to make stupid amounts of power from their build and the honest truth is that a LOT of these small block builds have real trouble breaking 300 to the wheels because it doesn't take much of a mistake to kill a lot of power.
EVERYONE shows up at the dyno with the idea their combo is going to make more than it does. Some are just more disappointed than others. And many have to come back another day because they overlooked something, or it broke on the rollers, or they don't have enough fuel, etc. Happens about 80% of the time with customer builds.
GD
for the price and it's new I'm ok paying the price for quality and strength... so a gm 9 bolt is as strong as a 12 bolt strange?
And for what its worth I'm not building a race car just a good street car.. that has some decent hp and torque... the shop the car is at he is very reputable and I trust him...
for the price and it's new I'm ok paying the price for quality and strength... so a gm 9 bolt is as strong as a 12 bolt strange?
The 9 bolt is not a GM diff. It's a Borg Warner diff that's made in Australia. I wouldn't say it's stronger than a 12 bolt, but it's been proven behind some pretty serious machines in Australia. They came in Nissan Skyline's and Holden Commodore's over there.
Here's a 9 second Commodore with 510 HP at the rear wheels from an RB30. Still running the 28 spline 9 bolt (same as used in the F body):
It's your money but don't kid yourself into thinking it's "necessary" or blow wind up my skirt and try to tell me your 300 RWHP street car with radials is going to break the 9 bolt. Because it's not.
I'll wager his Supercharged 383 will be farther north of 300RWHP and the accompanied torque, than you may give him credit for.
So let's ask it like this..
I buy 1200 dollars of parts and bring them, along with my 9 bolt to you. When it leaves your shop, how much am I into the 9bolt for?
Now compare that cost to a 12 bolt/8.8 or 9 inch. As far as the brake package goes, yes...the 12in-etc, disks are expensive, anymore expensive than upgrading to 12inch on a 9 bolt? Not much, so there's a wash. But he has to have brakes, let them be comparable and have him just put LT1 brake's on it.
After all that, is it really that much more to have a superior product?
I broke a 9 bolt with a bolt on car lol. They are 7.75” vs 8.75” for a 12 bolt. They are much weaker
Go with the strange 12 bolt its a great rear. I have had one for several years in my car. 33 spline axles, detroit truetrac diff with Richmond 3.42’s currently. It has big ford Ends but uses stock ls1 4th gen brakes. Been 8.20’s at 169 mph and many sub 8.50 runs on that rear. Transbrake 1.28-1.36 60 fts at 3750 lbs. its still in my bbc twin turbo car now which makes more power
I broke a 9 bolt with a bolt on car lol. They are 7.75” vs 8.75” for a 12 bolt. They are much weaker
Go with the strange 12 bolt its a great rear. I have had one for several years in my car. 33 spline axles, detroit truetrac diff with Richmond 3.42’s currently. It has big ford Ends but uses stock ls1 4th gen brakes. Been 8.20’s at 169 mph and many sub 8.50 runs on that rear. Transbrake 1.28-1.36 60 fts at 3750 lbs. its still in my bbc twin turbo car now which makes more power
Thanks i.am it just gives me more room to go I figured do it right once and be done with it..
S60 is giant and not worth it. Go 9” if you need the strength. Else 12 bolt gm is imo the best option
9 bolt aint bad but imo its marginally better than the 10 bolt which can hold alot of power still lol for a street car that doesnt hook hard like a drag car they can live a while
I've read this too The 9.750” ring gear can endure a tremendous amount of abuse- equal to a 9” Ford at a fraction of the price. It is also more efficient , taking less horsepower to drive the ring and pinion.
D60 is way overkill and needlessly heavy. The D60 is a 1 ton truck rear differential often used in the daully configuration in such classics as the F-350....... You aren't even a fraction of the way to needing such a differential at your power level. Ridiculous.
That's just going to needlessly suck power and increase parasitic drivetrain losses.
The S60/D60 is NOT THE SAME as a GM corporate 12 bolt, which is what we all thought you were talking about. The D60 is generally not called a 12 bolt. It is, however, completely ridiculous for your application - which would be just fine with a good rebuild and a Torsen in your existing 9 bolt.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-15-2020 at 01:28 AM.
Go on strange website it's there design of the older dana rear they moved the ring and ping up for less robbing hp..take less hp to move it..its about 60 to 100 lbs more then a stock rear..I see alot of people running them cant be all that bad..
Also aleady on order tired of dealing with rebuilt junk...its the second 9 bolt In the car.
Go on strange website it's there design of the older dana rear they moved the ring and ping up for less robbing hp..take less hp to move it..its about 60 to 100 lbs more then a stock rear..I see alot of people running them cant be all that bad..
Also aleady on order tired of dealing with rebuilt junk...its the second 9 bolt In the car.
And yet your engine is "rebuilt"...... it matters how it's done and by whom. Rebuilt does not mean junk. It's junk when someone screws it up. My car has 175k on it and the 9 bolt is doing great before and after the rebuild and handles my 400 HP 350 without any complaints. I will Procharge it and I am fully confident it will do just fine. 99.9% likely your unit just has a worn out cone type posi and needs bearings/seals.
Make sure it gets saved because some people do want the 9 bolt.
100lbs is 100lbs. That's approximately a tenth at the strip. That's a light passenger.....not insignificant.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 05-15-2020 at 08:41 AM.
And yet your engine is "rebuilt"...... it matters how it's done and by whom. Rebuilt does not mean junk. It's junk when someone screws it up. My car has 175k on it and the 9 bolt is doing great before and after the rebuild and handles my 400 HP 350 without any complaints. I will Procharge it and I am fully confident it will do just fine. 99.9% likely your unit just has a worn out cone type posi and needs bearings/seals.
Make sure it gets saved because some people do want the 9 bolt.
100lbs is 100lbs. That's approximately a tenth at the strip. That's a light passenger.....not insignificant.
GD
Where are you located do you want the rear? I'll give it to you.
GO is gonna tout the 9 bolt rebuild, why, I dunno.
He didn't answer me about what it would cost to do the 9 bolt after I dropped it and 1200 of parts in his l
Even for free, why spnd the $$ on an inferior unit?
Do I need forged pistons? Do I need a forged crank?
GO is gonna tout the 9 bolt rebuild, why, I dunno.
He didn't answer me about what it would cost to do the 9 bolt after I dropped it and 1200 of parts in his l
Even for free, why spnd the $$ on an inferior unit?
Do I need forged pistons? Do I need a forged crank?
Do I want/need a real rear end?
I'll try the Dynojet some day....not likely.
I went overkill on pretty much everything on this build... Holley HP efi...new wiring harness from efi connection, why not a bulletproof rear?....hell the Holley was $1300 the wiring harness was over 1k...not including the fully forged 383 stroker..i figure do the rear once and forget about it...
So we are slim-shaming the rear end, now? LOL Well, we could talk drag or trans, but I'm just pun-funning, now.
The wear on the cones is the 9-bolt's drawback. The S60 is overkill, and Strange pushes it. I couldn't get what I wanted in a 12 bolt from Strange, so strange. I just won't give my money to Moser. An average 9 inch is not that great - you have to sink some money into it. But I'm not a hardcore dragger - more a road race/pro tourer type.
So we are slim-shaming the rear end, now? LOL Well, we could talk drag or trans, but I'm just pun-funning, now.
The wear on the cones is the 9-bolt's drawback. The S60 is overkill, and Strange pushes it. I couldn't get what I wanted in a 12 bolt from Strange, so strange.
The cone type is absolutely garbage. And that's why many of us have installed Torsen carriers. No more problems.
GO is gonna tout the 9 bolt rebuild, why, I dunno.
He didn't answer me about what it would cost to do the 9 bolt after I dropped it and 1200 of parts in his l
Even for free, why spnd the $$ on an inferior unit?
Do I need forged pistons? Do I need a forged crank?
Do I want/need a real rear end?
I'll try the Dynojet some day....not likely.
Probably on the order of $1000 for setup and installation. Labor ain't cheap unfortunately.
What do you have against DynoJet? What's your preferred dyno and why?
Nothing to do about DynoJets....not at all. Maybe go back and read your reply, then you'll see where/why I replied
Now go back to the OP's post, they are building a stoked engine. And the OP mentioned a blower/super cahrger for the future,
Would you think they would be running a round cam and 186 truck heads on it?
I don't need to go back and quote your reply, but let me ask you this
Say I want to build a 300 HP eninge'
I want to run forged pistons
I want a forged crank
Am I dumb for spedning the extra money, or di I but insurance on my build?
So....that said. and asked... do I need a 12bolt rear?
Or do I want insurance on the build?
Insurance? No. It's just needlessly spending money in an attempt to feel good. You know as well as I do that forged pistons and forged crank are ridiculous at 300 HP and so is a Dana 60 even with a supercharger. If that thing makes excellent power it's only going to be good for 10 psi and maybe make 500 RWHP - which with street tires will never have enough traction to break a 9 bolt.
You just don't see anyone on this site or others complaining about the 9 bolt blowing up. The worst you hear is the terrible cone type posi (agreed - but a Torsen is available), and possibly some occasional bearing failures. They aren't blowing up. It's just not happening. 25-30 years later and plenty of cars with bigger engines including the Aussies with the Holden's and the Skylines..... everyone that uses them agrees they are really tough if maintained and mildly upgraded such as the Torsen, etc.
Insurance? No. It's just needlessly spending money in an attempt to feel good. You know as well as I do that forged pistons and forged crank are ridiculous at 300 HP and so is a Dana 60 even with a supercharger. If that thing makes excellent power it's only going to be good for 10 psi and maybe make 500 RWHP - which with street tires will never have enough traction to break a 9 bolt.
You just don't see anyone on this site or others complaining about the 9 bolt blowing up. The worst you hear is the terrible cone type posi (agreed - but a Torsen is available), and possibly some occasional bearing failures. They aren't blowing up. It's just not happening. 25-30 years later and plenty of cars with bigger engines including the Aussies with the Holden's and the Skylines..... everyone that uses them agrees they are really tough if maintained and mildly upgraded such as the Torsen, etc.
GD
You're for real, right?
So, ya married?
Wife like a Gucci bag?
Wants a Gucci bag
Just saying, a paper sack will hold what's in there.
Ya, insurance, piece of mind...nice...feels good, right?
You keep mentioning street tires.
Education time.
Ever wheel hopped a BBC that had "just 400HP", lil more torque;P Seen what it will do do spider gears?
Ever put real power (through street tires) and seen what happens to the splines? Bias ply now, no fancy radials.
I've beat them all apart and put them back together. OP isn't going overkill, he's builing it to be in his comfort zone.
The car will see track time. With a set of MT drag radials .. why is everyone saying 300 hp ...it will have more then that guess you know nothing about lpe engines he used the same cam and heads that I am except I'm using a first performance intake with a ported polished TB that flows over 1000 cfm a modern holley hp efi system for tuning my guess is 350 or so rwhp and easily over 400 ft lbs of torque..I can pull up similar builds and show you what they put down...
And not once did I ever mention cost being a factor on the rear .. I want bulletproofed..I want the sense of security when I hit the track knowing I can launch this as hard as i can and not worrying about the rear going in it ..
Dyno charts or it didn't happen. And no Mustang charts where the operator applied a 1.25 multiplier to the results
And I call BS on that price with labor, brakes, and driveline. Receipts or that didn't happen either.
GD
I have nothing to prove to you that's the price...I've spent alot at his shop he is taking care of us he us a strange dealer so he got us a great deal..
Go on this forum and search yourself 383 with a first intake you'll see test results
Or better yet look up 383 lingenfelter motors also see dyno and ETs pal.
Vettes with there motor were going 11s so that was making 300 hp...lol honestly I dont have to answer to you who are you?
I own and daily drive a FIRST intake on my Vortec with Dyno charts. I'm well aware of what they can do.
Without testing it's only armchair racing. Lets see some dyno charts. Does your builder have a dyno?
You keep posting over and over and over asking what it will make and trolling MY posts (with Dyno charts, etc) for reasons I can't fathom since you neither built the thing yourself nor have you put it on a dyno. Results depend greatly on how well the parts work together (how well they were chosen) and it probably depends *more* on how it was put together - attention to detail, etc. LOTS of examples of builds that didn't make what the builder or customer expected for...... reasons often unknown. It's not actually all that easy to take a small block up over 300 WHP. A fellow tuner I know that owned a premier high performance shop for 15 years claims that in all that time he maybe ran across half a dozen old school SBC's that broke 300 wheel. It's not that easy.
And yeeeaaahhh - sure I'm the troll. Uh huh. You're the one that keeps popping into MYthreads wanting to talk all about your build. But I'm the troll. Totally. All you come here for is to get an ego stroke that you bought all the right parts and it's going to be so awesome! after you get it back from the shop where you pay someone else to do the skilled labor and tuning, etc. Come back when you have some actual results with proof. Till then - if you have some actual useful, helpful, technical knowledge (seems unlikely based on your post history) then find some thread where you can help out a fellow member to give back to this fine community we have. You can check my post history - you'll find that I give back to this forum by helping others day in and day out.
I'll do you better I'll post slips dyno is a tunning tool can be manipulated to inflate numbers..I rarely believe them..nice for tuning tho..
And what are you jealous that we have the money to have the car professionally built? Im.sorry I cant do me own work... at one time yes now that I had back surgery I can't...and I'll never comment on one if your posts dont worry...
I'll do you better I'll post slips dyno is a tunning tool can be manipulated to inflate numbers..I rarely believe them..nice for tuning tho..
Some can and some can't. And if you have an operator that manipulates the dyno to make numbers then it's not the Dyno's fault. That's an unscrupulous operator isn't it?
The DynoJet in particular is designed specifically to not require any input, and therefore is pretty much incapable of being manipulated. Mustang's are notorious for being manipulated. With the DynoJet you simply strap the car and make pulls. No information about the vehicle is required. I can say they are quite accurate.
You can think what you like about me but I help a lot of people here and elsewhere. If I'm an a$$hole for speaking the truth, asking the hard questions, and calling out trolls, so be it. IDGAF what you think of me. You have no knowledge of use to me or anyone else here.
well car was almost done lol...the GM 9 bolt is making noise so time to upgrade putting in a 12 bolt strange, 3.54 gears and a 3 inch chrome molly driveshaft should hold lol....
anyone here running that rear how do you like it?
Where IN that post did i ask for your advice on a gm 9 bolt? Where in that post did I say i wanted to keep the gm 9 bolt...where in my post did i say i cared about cost..where in that post did It say I wanted to.stay stock...no where..it said who here is running a s60 dana are you no then you should have just trolled on by...old saying you have nothing nice to.say ..then say nothing...
If parts are more available now for 9 bolts I suppose that aint a bad option but i certainly do not feel comfortable investing in them when they are 7.75” vs a bigger 12 bolt if you plan on more power down the road.
back when i had a 9 bolt they didnt have parts available. You had to try order gears and parts from
australia which costs alot of money then and who knows when you would get them. The cones were a problem. One tire would burn rubber hard but the other would not consistently when worn out. Like i said before i broke a spider gear in the 9 bolt on a stock bolt on car that was running high 13’s lol
i also chipped a worm gear in a 10 bolt torsen diff with 650 whp on the street lol
I would not get a dana 60. Just not a great rear imo even if it is cheaper. 12 bolts make much more sense and alot more parts available imo. They work fantastic
If parts are more available now for 9 bolts I suppose that aint a bad option but i certainly do not feel comfortable investing in them when they are 7.75” vs a bigger 12 bolt if you plan on more power down the road.
back when i had a 9 bolt they didnt have parts available. You had to try order gears and parts from
australia which costs alot of money then and who knows when you would get them. The cones were a problem. One tire would burn rubber hard but the other would not consistently when worn out. Like i said before i broke a spider gear in the 9 bolt on a stock bolt on car that was running high 13’s lol
i also chipped a worm gear in a 10 bolt torsen diff with 650 whp on the street lol
I would not get a dana 60. Just not a great rear imo even if it is cheaper. 12 bolts make much more sense and alot more parts available imo. They work fantastic
Supposedly the s60 dana 12 bolt rear is all new from strange it's their new design 9.75 ring gear they even redesigned the pinion placement for less hp parasitic loss looks like a very well thought out piece... the shop building my car said he would even run it if it was out when he built his.
But where we’re headed now, we’re not ever going to have to worry about the rear end situation again, thanks to the highly regarded rear end specialists at Strange Engineering. After a quick call to J.C. Cascio at Strange, we were sold on the idea of an S60 for the Killer, even though it seemed a bit like overkill at the start. Up front, the weight seemed tremendous, with the cast iron S60 ringing in at over 200-pounds fully assembled. But, to be fair, that’s only 15-pounds more than a 9-inch, and just 25 more than a 12-bolt, and the advantages really do speak for themselves. First, lets look at the housing itself, which has been cast by Strange specifically for several applications, including the late model F-body. What you get is a bolt-on nodular iron housing with beefy torque arm mounting provisions that was designed “to be more rigid through the use of computer modeling for improved durability and quieter, long-lasting gears.” Inside the S60, Strange offers a variety of differential and ring and pinion options, although we chose to run with the company’s Strange Trac helical differential, 4.10:1 ring and pinion, and 35-spline axles. Unlike a traditional Posi unit, the Strange Trac features six massive pinion gears to control differential action, instead of clutch packs, which can wear out over time, and is positioned as an excellent unit for street/strip, road racing, autocross, and drift cars, which pretty much sums up the Killer in a nutshell. The 4.10:1 ring and pinion matches our old gear ratio, which we loved around Sebring, and the 35-spline axles are an obvious upgrade over the 28-spline units we had before.
05-12-2020, 02:48 PM
it matters how it's done and by whom. Rebuilt does not mean junk. It's junk when someone screws it up. My car has 175k on it and the 9 bolt is doing great before and after the rebuild and handles my 400 HP 350 without any complaints. I will Procharge it and I am fully confident it will do just fine. 99.9% likely your unit just has a worn out cone type posi and needs bearings/seals.
