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On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
There is a valve change so that it will shift into 4th at wot. I have heard that the clutches are small on OD in the 700R4 and if you put the valve in . These small clutches may be a problem. I get the impression that is the reason they designed it not to go into 4th at wot in the first place.
I would like to know what the results of people putting in this valve to go into OD at wot. Any experience with this out there.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Well that's the final answer then, One of the stories That has been talked about quite a bit on this question ,is that the corvette with that transmission has the up-shift kit built into it., So is there anything to that and if so were they going through clutches constantly. Thanks for the great information. Lucky to have you as a source.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
So the Corvette Transmissions were Built with a better performing 2-4 Band Servo Assembly.
The portion of the Servo that holds the 2-4 Band in 2nd and 4th Gear (Intermediate Piston) is an upgrade over what came in Third-Gens.
A second Servo Piston applies for 4th-Gear... but it is actually no different than the Third-Gen version.
Simply the "Corvette" version does a better job of holding the 2-4 Band applied.
The Throttle-Valve Plunger and Sleeve assembly are going to be what mainly affects the 3-4 Up-Shift...
However the 3-4 Shift Valve-Train does also.
The Corvettes received a Throttle-Valve Plunger and Sleeve that would allow a 3/4 Throttle 3-4 Up-Shift.
Sometimes a nearly full throttle Shift would occur.
Technically speaking none of the THM700-R4 Transmissions were set up for WOT 3-4 Shifts.
The B4C (Police Package) Third-Gens were set-up the same way as the Corvettes.
...and Yes, they did have issues with 3-4 Clutch burn-up.
When rebuilding these transmissions today for more HP...
or for WOT 3-4 Shifts, there are tons of aftermarket Parts available to upgrade the Transmission.
Several hydraulic changes also need to be made for the Transmission to last.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
When we (GM) designed this Transmission...
It was only rated up to 250 Ft/ Lbs of Torque, for a WOT 3-4 up-shift.
That will not work for the Torque produced by the Third-Gen V8 Engines.
Thus the WOT 3-4 up-shift was prevented.
Making the Valve-Body changes for a WOT 3-4 up-shift to a stock Transmission, will burn-up the 2-4 Band and 3-4 Clutch Pack.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
So the Corvette Transmissions were Built with a better performing 2-4 Band Servo Assembly.
The portion of the Servo that holds the 2-4 Band in 2nd and 4th Gear (Intermediate Piston) is an upgrade over what came in Third-Gens.
A second Servo Piston applies for 4th-Gear... but it is actually no different than the Third-Gen version.
Simply the "Corvette" version does a better job of holding the 2-4 Band applied.
The Throttle-Valve Plunger and Sleeve assembly are going to be what mainly affects the 3-4 Up-Shift...
However the 3-4 Shift Valve-Train does also.
The Corvettes received a Throttle-Valve Plunger and Sleeve that would allow a 3/4 Throttle 3-4 Up-Shift.
Sometimes a nearly full throttle Shift would occur.
Technically speaking none of the THM700-R4 Transmissions were set up for WOT 3-4 Shifts.
The B4C (Police Package) Third-Gens were set-up the same way as the Corvettes.
...and Yes, they did have issues with 3-4 Clutch burn-up.
When rebuilding these transmissions today for more HP...
or for WOT 3-4 Shifts, there are tons of aftermarket Parts available to upgrade the Transmission.
Several hydraulic changes also need to be made for the Transmission to last.
Again thanks for the response, all I know about the upgrades on my 700r4 is it has < new upgraded steels and clutches, shift kit, 2800-3000 stall converter.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Most welcome!
If you are ever looking to make further upgrades...
the Forum has a Sponsor with the Member name: "PBA".
He is Dana of Pro-Built Automatics, and I very highly recommend him!
There are ONLY about 10 Shops in the Country (In my opinion) whom can build the THM700-R4 to it's potential.
Dana/ PBA is #2 on my Top-10 List!
The ONLY reason that he is not #1, is because he does not offer Units past 750ish HP.
Honestly, I feel he is being smart by not offering higher HP Units...
Far less headaches that way.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Amazing GM is using the "new" SuperMatic 4L75E-R four-speed automatic that can withstand the 1004hp and 876 lb-ft output of the 632 big-block. Would like to see what's been done to it!
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
I am not surprised...
GM has been taking notice of Shops like my own, offering 1,000+ HP THM700-R4, 4L60E, and THM200-4R Transmissions.
I do not recommend building those Transmissions to that power level...
as it is more expensive, and still weaker than a 4L80E.
I direct people away from doing this unless a 4L80E or THM400 with GV Overdrive, is not an option.
I do not have confidence that GM will have success here.
They are far behind on some of the Hydraulics involved.
Like the "4L75E", the "4L75E-R" just has the Sonnax catalog thrown at it.
I believe that GM is betting on People not realistically having 1,000 HP Engines in front of this Transmission.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I am not surprised...
GM has been taking notice of Shops like my own, offering 1,000+ HP THM700-R4, 4L60E, and THM200-4R Transmissions.
I do not recommend building those Transmissions to that power level...
as it is more expensive, and still weaker than a 4L80E.
I direct people away from doing this unless a 4L80E or THM400 with GV Overdrive, is not an option.
I do not have confidence that GM will have success here.
They are far behind on some of the Hydraulics involved.
Like the "4L75E", the "4L75E-R" just has the Sonnax catalog thrown at it.
I believe that GM is betting on People not realistically having 1,000 HP Engines in front of this Transmission.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
The 5-Pinion Planets (like the 4L60E/ 4L65E) are inferior to the 4-Pinion Planets of the 4L80E.
.
I'm looking and I'm not seeing any real evidence of failures posted anywhere. This is with respect to the OEM version, not the "globally sourced" crap.
I can see this as a possibility but nothing that I've found has come to the surface other than some anecdotal stuff with no descriptions or pictures.
Vorteciroc, do you have any examples or is this engineering conjecture? (I'm well versed as to your posted credentials).
Last edited by skinny z; Nov 14, 2021 at 02:33 PM.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by skinny z
I'm looking and I'm not seeing any real evidence of failures posted anywhere. This is with respect to the OEM version, not the "globally sourced" crap.
I can see this as a possibility but nothing that I've found has come to the surface other than some anecdotal stuff with no descriptions or pictures.
Vorteciroc, do you have any examples or is this engineering conjecture? (I'm well versed as to your posted credentials).
Yes I do.
I was one of the Engineers that were running 5-Pinion Planet strength testing via Dynomometer/ Run-Stand.
At the time that the 5-Pinion Planets were being designed, we were comparing and testing many different Alloys, as well as size/ mass comparisons.
Once the Data was collected regarding how the different versions of the Prototype 5-Pinion Planets failed...
We ran several Cost Analysis studies, and then selected the Materials and Shape/ Mass of the final designed 5-Pinion Planets.
The final products were almost half the Cost to manufacture, compared to the 4-Pinion Planets.
The final products were supporting/ handling between 450 Ft/ Lbs to roughly 600 Ft/ Lbs of Torque depending on Vehicle weight and type of use.
When exiting safe parameters (Power, Weight, or Both)...
The Planets usually cracked, or blew apart! (as shown in the Image below):
When I opened my own Business, I further ran testing on the 5-Pinion Planets for both the 4L60E Family and 4L80E Family.
The results continued to be the same as before.
For the last Image...
The Transmission was built with the latest design Output Ring Gear.
It is the strongest Output Ring Gear with excellent Heat-Treatment (an old design Hub was used with this Ring Gear).
When the piece of junk 5-Pinion Planet failed...
It even destroyed this very strong Ring Gear:
So, to answer your question... I have done significant testing with both the 4-Pinion, and 5-Pinion Gear-Sets.
I have 4-Pinion Planets in my Test-Car right now.
I have been testing this car for almost 2-Years now with over 1,000 Ft/ Lbs of Torque.
No problems at all.
I tried 4 different Sets of 5-Pinion Planets in this Test-Car, before I installed the 4-Pinion Gear-Set.
All 4 of the 5-Pinion Gear-Sets broke with the Turbocharger Waste-Gates keeping Power down to about 550 HP.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
anytime you have to make more holes in the same size piece of metal, it will be weaker. four 'planets' leaves more meat around them for support. the idea that an extra gear leaves each one to carry less weight may be true, but only if the surrounding support metal is enlarged to provide the same amount of support per gear as the four gear unit.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by TTOP350
So if I'm reading this right, the GM 5 pinion planets aren't as strong as the 4 pinion in the 4l60 or are we comparing 4l60 parts vs 4l80?
I was only comparing 4L60E Parts to 4L65E Parts.
(Otherwise I was saying that the 4L85E Planets are junk, just like the 4L65E Planets).
The 4L65E Planets are produced from inferior Alloys compared to the 4L60E Planets.
The Only reason that We (GM) designed them... was as a cost cutting measure (Greedy GM wanted to make more $$$$ per Unit).
Please refer to this previous Post of mine:
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
If you have to rebuild your transmission again, or go up in horsepower...
Remove and sell your 5-pinion planetary gears (they are inferior to the 4-pinion planetary gears).
I have 4-Pinion gear sets living with over 1,200 hp... the 5-pinion gear sets have failed (cracked) numerous times at half that power level.
Here is a post of mine on another forum on this topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vortecirocView Post
Regarding the Planetary gears:
-From a load distribution standpoint; if two planetary gears are being compared, with the only difference being the number of pinion gears (metallurgy, dimensions, and everything else is identical)...
then the planet with 5 pinion gears would be better at spreading/ distributing the load/ force placed upon it and be considered stronger.
-However the "4L60E family" 5 pinion planets are made of inferior metallurgy, and are over all weaker than the 4 pinion planets.
To try and compensate for the inferior metallurgy; we increased the mass/ material surrounding the pinion gears... However it was simply not enough.
Look at this image of a 4 pinion planet. Notice the space/ air/ open area around the pinion gears:
This is a good thing, as it better allows lubrication oil to move/ spread about.
Compare that to this image of a 5 pinion planet:
The open area (around the pinion gear) had to be reduced to try and bring back some strength over all to the planet.
This however slightly hurts the lubrication.
On the rear 5 pinion planetary gear; we were able to add some lube oil slots to slightly improve the lube to the pinion gears.
You will see the OEM 5 pinion planets crack/ break way before the 4 pinion models.
The aftermarket 5 pinion planets are even worse... Do NOT ever purchase these.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the 4 pinion planets... the only reason we actually made the 5 pinion gears was to save money (these parts were a cost cutting measure).
If everything else were identical... 5 pinion gears would be stronger.
But as I explained, the metallurgy/ casting is weaker... thus the planet as a whole is weaker.
You can use the 5 pinion planets... just not with high power.
I would switch to the 4 pinion planets in the 500 HP+ range... or if you have 4 pinion planets, just keep them.
The 4 pinion sets have survived over a year at 1,200+ rear wheel HP in one of my test vehicles... i can NOT say the same for the 5 pinion sets (I have broken the castings at less than half that power).
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
Yes I do.
I was one of the Engineers that were running 5-Pinion Planet strength testing via Dynomometer/ Run-Stand.
At the time that the 5-Pinion Planets were being designed, we were comparing and testing many different Alloys, as well as size/ mass comparisons.
Once the Data was collected regarding how the different versions of the Prototype 5-Pinion Planets failed...
We ran several Cost Analysis studies, and then selected the Materials and Shape/ Mass of the final designed 5-Pinion Planets.
The final products were almost half the Cost to manufacture, compared to the 4-Pinion Planets.
The final products were supporting/ handling between 450 Ft/ Lbs to roughly 600 Ft/ Lbs of Torque depending on Vehicle weight and type of use.
When exiting safe parameters (Power, Weight, or Both)...
The Planets usually cracked, or blew apart! (as shown in the Image below):
When I opened my own Business, I further ran testing on the 5-Pinion Planets for both the 4L60E Family and 4L80E Family.
The results continued to be the same as before.
For the last Image...
The Transmission was built with the latest design Output Ring Gear.
It is the strongest Output Ring Gear with excellent Heat-Treatment (an old design Hub was used with this Ring Gear).
When the piece of junk 5-Pinion Planet failed...
It even destroyed this very strong Ring Gear:
So, to answer your question... I have done significant testing with both the 4-Pinion, and 5-Pinion Gear-Sets.
I have 4-Pinion Planets in my Test-Car right now.
I have been testing this car for almost 2-Years now with over 1,000 Ft/ Lbs of Torque.
No problems at all.
I tried 4 different Sets of 5-Pinion Planets in this Test-Car, before I installed the 4-Pinion Gear-Set.
All 4 of the 5-Pinion Gear-Sets broke with the Turbocharger Waste-Gates keeping Power down to about 550 HP.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I was only comparing 4L60E Parts to 4L65E Parts.
(Otherwise I was saying that the 4L85E Planets are junk, just like the 4L65E Planets).
The 4L65E Planets are produced from inferior Alloys compared to the 4L60E Planets.
The Only reason that We (GM) designed them... was as a cost cutting measure (Greedy GM wanted to make more $$$$ per Unit).
Please refer to this previous Post of mine:
Thank you for sharing this information and confirming what's singing on the net from time to time.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Well, from a personal perspective, I guess I'll have to see how it goes. I've a freshly rebuilt 4L60 full of Sonnax and GM parts including OEM 5 pinion planetaries.
Estimated HP/TQ should settle in around the 450 mark.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Thank you for clearing it all up for me, I sometimes get wandering mind. I guess I should go back to the 4 pinion planets next time we open it up.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I was only comparing 4L60E Parts to 4L65E Parts.
(Otherwise I was saying that the 4L85E Planets are junk, just like the 4L65E Planets).
The 4L65E Planets are produced from inferior Alloys compared to the 4L60E Planets.
The Only reason that We (GM) designed them... was as a cost cutting measure (Greedy GM wanted to make more $$$$ per Unit).
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by skinny z
Well, from a personal perspective, I guess I'll have to see how it goes. I've a freshly rebuilt 4L60 full of Sonnax and GM parts including OEM 5 pinion planetaries.
Estimated HP/TQ should settle in around the 450 mark.
In a light weight Vehicle (like our Cars), the 5-Pinion Gear-Sets will be okay at roughly 450 Ft/Lbs.
No need to stress about it, unless Power goes up.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Several of you said: "Thank You" to me.
You are all welcome!
I find myself in a difficult position at times, when it comes to posting negative-information about GM.
Half the time, people on these Forums do not believe me...
and that is fair, since no one here really knows me (or one another, for that matter).
I am a pretty straight-forward/ no BS kind of guy...
I do not like to sugar-coat some $hit, and call it a delectable dessert.
When GM has done something well... I will say it as it is.
When GM has done something poorly... I will say it as it is.
Being an Engineer for several Divisions of GM...
and then owning/ operating my own custom Shop for GM Vehicles...
has put me in a position where I have a stupid amount of information on GM Products.
The entire 5-Pinion Planet nonsense, has been a major pain in my a$$, for a long time now.
People who blindly sell GM Parts, do not know any better...
and GM was not stupid in the way that the 5-Pinion Planets are marketed.
Yes... 5 Pinion-Gears better distributes the load over more surface area, than 4 Pinion-Gears do. If the 5 Pinion-Gears were comprised of the same materials (in a similar design/ casting) as the 4 Pinion-Gears...
then the 5 Pinion-Gears would "actually" be stronger than the 4 Pinion-Gears.
As I stated in one of the Posts further above these...
If all were identical between the 4 Pinion version and the 5 Pinion version...
except for the amount of Pinions... the 5 Pinion version would be stronger.
So GM is trying to get away with it, as best as they can.
Meanwhile the 5 Pinion version might as well be made of Tin-Foil, instead of a Iron/ Steel Alloy.
As many of you get to know me better...
You will see that I both Love, and Hate GM with a passion.
I will always call them out on their $hit! ...I have no fear in doing so! @dixiebandit69 Knows me better than most of you here (He knows me from LS1TECH).
And he would attest to the fact that I definitely call-out GM on their Bull-$hit.
Re: On the 700R4 not being able to shift into OD at wot.
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
In a light weight Vehicle (like our Cars), the 5-Pinion Gear-Sets will be okay at roughly 450 Ft/Lbs.
No need to stress about it, unless Power goes up.
Well, If this car is ever sorted out (and I freely admit that may never happen), those 5 pinions will be behind a converter stall right at peak torque and on slicks.
A lesser combo of mine shredded the 9-bolt, which in and of itself isn't saying much, but breaking stuff isn't my favourite thing. And I've had my fair share.
With any luck, this summer will tell the tale.
