Hello all, I've owned a 3rd gen camaro with a 6.0 vortec in it since about April and I've had trouble right and left. Spent just under 2k and got a bunch of new parts and internals but my buffoon self didn't know what I was getting myself into. The guy I bought it from had a th350 3 speed automatic transmission with a warranty that blew on me one day because this guy never did maintenance or cared much at all about the car. I care very much about the car and used the warranty to fix the transmission but little did I know the guys were a bunch of morons because now my transmission is leaking fluid as well as the lines. The tail seal is leaking and the mount bolts were loose enough to spin with my finger. I'm probably best off getting a whole new transmission but I'm conflicted with what might be best. I am hurting on money and have considered selling to get a more reliable 3rd gen. But once I'm a bit more stable I was wondering what transmission I should be looking at and where. Any advice is well appreciated.

 

If it's a stock PCM I would consider a 4L60. It's going to be the most common option. But you're in for some changes and cost. Sometimes the simple and affordable option is best..

Questions:

Cable TB or electric?
Truck PCM or car? Which one?
Hacked harness?
Rear gear ratio?
Long crank or short?

 

I'll be honest I had to look up some of those. I'm still fairly new to mechanics and I don't even recall the specs for those. Im in for a lot of figuring out what this guy did to the car and too much time figuring out how to fix it.

 

If you want the best advice, ya gotta provide the best info

This;

"transmission is leaking fluid as well as the lines. The tail seal is leaking"

is kinda ambiguous .......

Are the ONLY leaks the lines & the tailshaft seal? Does the transmission shift/work otherwise ok?

If it IS only the tailshaft seal and the lines, that's an afternoon's work and less than $50 in parts, hardly something to take such drastic action as this over;

"I'm probably best off getting a whole new transmission"

Especially considering this;

"I am hurting on money"

 

This part is key. Sort through what you have and work with that.

However, regardless of the computer used to run the engine functions, the advice on the 700R4/4L60 (no "E") is probably the most economical route. About the only real twist that I'm aware of (having investigated the LS swap to death) is an offset flexplate or spacer to allow the transmission to connect with the engine. Everything else is original equipment. Crossmember, driveshaft, torque arm are all stock items. (Which begs the question, if a TH350 is in there, how is the torque arm attached now?)

Pictures. Pictures. Pictures.

 

What Orangebird said. Fix what you have is cheaper than buying a transmission. Mounting bolts loose? Tighten them up or figure out why they are not tight. Leaking tail shaft seal? Pretty easy afternoon job with simple hand tools and patience. No sense tossing money at a problem until you know what the exact problem is. Clean up the leaks, the mess (on the driveway and the sides/pan of the transmission), and top off the fluid and then test again. While the Th350 is not a desirable transmission due to the lack of 4th gear; GM made millions of them, and they survived many millions of miles of use and abuse just fine (especially if money is "tight").

 

The advice offered above is thinking that the TH350 is junk. And unless I were a dedicated drag racer, I wouldn't put the money into rebuilding it. I certainly wouldn't throw it away though. There could be some residual value.

 

I've had a couple days to look more into it and see the replies and I appreciate the input. I'm pretty sure it's just the tail seal and the lines just had some on them. I kinda overreacted about how bad the transmission might be as it shifts just like before. There is a loud sound when I shift to reverse but ive looked into that and I'm thinking it's not the transmission as much as a couple other factors. I'm hoping to see what more I can find out and fix her up more because I do want to make it work.

 

the transmission mount can break and cause symptoms like this.

 

yeah the idiots who rebuilt it earlier this month didn't bolt the mounts correctly. I could twist it with my fingers.i tightened it but I'll get it fixed and make sure it's stable.

 

^^^^THIS

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure. I only got a decent look at it the other day but I noticed I could see my torque converter. It looks like there was supposed to be a piece of metal covering that spot underneath but it was removed for some reason, I'll have to get a picture next time I look.

 

That would be the inspection cover missing. It's not a watertight fit and many leave it off for one reason or another. I'm in the same camp although I would like to get one in place eventually.

 

Ah okay thanks for the clarification, itd probably be good to get one at some point but I'll try to get the tail seal in order and I have to get new headers. As long as I don't hit it on anything it should be fine right?

 

Well, I can't think of what you might hit that would get up in there and damage the converter but I suppose anything is possible. The cover are either thin sheet metal or plastic.
I haven't had one in decades and so far there've been no ill effects. There might be something to be said for them stopping the majority of the road grime that gets splashed around there but then again, they're hardly watertight.

 

Lol those cars never existed new from the factory. Want better reliability? Buy a 5th or 6th Gen Camaro or a C6. You'll have all the nice creature comforts in a modern package

 

???
Not the torque converter; the torque arm, the long steel device that extends forward from the rear end housing and is supposed to be attached to the transmission tailhousing. How is it attached to your (turbo 350?) transmission?

 

Still curious about that myself.

 

Huh. I had three; they were all pretty great. C6's blase'.


X3. This should be figured out, first, IMO.

 

My dad had an 82 years ago w a th200 that we swapped a th350 into. Back in the day B&M made a kit to mount a torque arm mount onto the bolts that mount the tail shaft to the trans housing. It used the stock torque arm and bushing. I've also seen people copy this bracket. It was pretty simple but probably only ideal for stock power levels.

 

I had a somewhat similar situation when the doofus that built my previous transmission put all the good parts into a Corvette 4L60 case. Unlike the F-body version, which has the transmission mount on the case, the Corvette (and the Caprice) have the rear mount on the extension housing.
I had to fab a bracket and adapt it to the extension housing bolts.






Never had the nerve to drag race in that configuration though. The TA was still attached to the extension and I figured that'd be a lot of stress on those bolts.
I'd bought a Hooker crossmember to isolate the TA from the transmission but as fate would have it, that Vette cased unit ate itself up. Now all the good bits (what remained anyway) are in a case with the mount in the right spot. Sill have to isolate the TA though. That'll be another project for another day.

 

The one we had years ago I think grabbed 3 or 4 bolts. I can't remember. Either way, it wasn't good. The companies w red and black shinny parts used to make a th350 crossmember/torgue arm setup. Idk if they still do that.

 

IIRC, Holley still produces crossmembers for just about any GM transmission to put in these cars.
Although I have a Gen 1 SBC, Holley's LS swap crossmember is within 5/8" of lining up with the rear mount on the 4L60. I had a long talk (some of it here at 3rd gen) with a former Holley engineer. Toddoky had some great insights into fitment as I believe he was in charge of a lot of this development.

Now as for our OP...where did he go?

 

I have the Hooker transmission crossmember and while it's all designed to be used as a complete system I just used an adjustable mount on my 4L80E and it worked no problem. I also cut the TA mount off as it's of no use to me.

Holley will say "fitment not guaranteed" because they want you to buy all their stuff

 

I think you'd be fine in either of you guys' cases. But, lets find out:
Let's say you have 450 ft-lb motors. and a 3.73 gear stick, or 3.23 gear auto...
Stick: 450*2.66= 1197 being sent down the d/s, *3.73=4464 turning the tires. Assuming the hook, that would be roughly our reactive force going back up the arm, and into the Tq arm mount. ~4500 ft lbs. Now divide that by the distance from the rear axle shaft centerline to the tq arm mount on the trans (or where ever it is) which is just about 5', and you get 4464/5=892....basically about 900 lbs pushing up on your trans mount.

Auto: 450*3.07= 1381 down the d/s, lets say the converter gives a 2:1 multiplication at the "hit", = 2763 down the d/s. Now, assuming the drive shaft doesn't break, and "pole-vault" another 3rd gen ( ), then 2763*3.23= 8924. Now divide that by the distance from the rear axle shaft centerline to the tq arm mount on the trans (or where ever it is) which is just about 5', and you get 8924/5= 1784 ....basically about 1800 lbs pushing up on your trans mount. That's a lot of force!


Either IS a lot of force but will 900 lbs shear those bolts? Will 1800 lbs shear them off? "Shear strength on a 3/8 grade 8 is roughly 5000 pound" How many bolts you got holding that mount on? I think it'd be alright.

 

Ever since I became aware of this persistent Camaro pole vaulting problem I've been driving extra careful! This thread renewed my fear of that and I decided to Google "Camaro pole vault". Of course I was not surprised when this was the first picture to pop up. Hmm, that even looks like one of my Thirdgens....

 

LOVE IT!!!

 

I appreciate the math Tom.
3.73 geared 450 lb-ft is what I have. But don't forget the torque multiplication that the converter provides. Something in the magnitude of 2.5:1. So there's that to factor in as well. I'd often dead hook with the slicks (An amazing event really although not necessarily the quickest!).
Anyway, my fear is not the shearing of the bolts which is unlikely but rather cracking the aluminum transmission case. That would truly be a bad thing. There's not a lot of material around those bolts holes.
But, as it stands now, that case is now a core that I'm waiting for some Corvette owner to buy (apparently they have some value in the E-Bay world). The new transmission, which is out of an early 90's 4 x 4 (and has all the good guts in it) looks to be beefier than the passenger car version (and I believe this is what GearStar sells as a "heavy duty" case), is ready to go.
I still need to get the torque arm off of the transmission though. I'm hoping that crossmember that I bought several years ago I will get install and a nice new dual exhaust goes alongside it.

 

That torque arm mount in my dad's 82 held up to the brutal power of the crossfire engine in that car! But I wouldn't trust it w 450hp and sticky tires.

 

IDK....I bet it'd hold....for a while. This used to be discussed on the 'Vette forums a fair amount -the strength of the TA system. The tq arm on those things (commonly referred to as the C-Beam) is aluminum, and way more "open" than the Tq arm on the F-bod. (I know that the MOUNT differ at the front).





One of the members, RecklessDrvr (sp) went 9's many-a-pass on the IRS rear w/the C=Beam. Takes more than 450hp to go 9's. He used to 60' 1.3ish, IIRC with that set up. He had pics on the forum of his car carrying the front wheels....with the stock, aluminum C-Beam! Now, I know ALL of the forces required to lift the front wheels are NOT from the rear diff alone, but that stock C-beam had to have been packing some serious lifting forces through it! I wouldn't be afraid to hit the stock Tq arm in a 3rd gen w/450hp....but I'd inspect it to see how it's doing!

 

I see..."hold for a while" and ..."inspect it". Exactly the elements I didn't' want to add to all of the other break down probabilities.
That said, I'll bet I could have manned up and made a couple of slick tired passes with the rigged mount. As it turns out, and I've said before, it came unraveled in other ways. I may have mentioned that I took the input splines out of the converter while street testing the engine before this one. The last shift was 6500 RPM from 1st to 2nd and BANG! And that was without any torque multiplication. Crankshaft to transmission direct and suddenly a gear box full of neutrals.

As for the Vette guys, that's a different world altogether. I've seen what it takes to get the IRS (of old ) to survive life at the dragstrip. Somewhat interestingly, I've a Dana 44 (from the 90's) that was an over the counter replacement from GM for all the 10 bolts the racers were breaking. That D44 isn't any different than the D44 from the Corvettes of the day. Or so my intel tells me.

 

That vette stuff is pretty interesting. The aluminum arm is cool. Those IRS center sections are bolted in I assume. That arm I assume has less force on it than in third gen's. But I know nothing about those cars. I wonder how that c arm would hold up in a third gen w the proper brackets.

I'll stick w my spohn setup. I don't want any issues when this goes on inna few weeks!

 

I agree with you about the 'Vette parts....I've always loved the all-aluminum (radical, at the time -even Lambo and Ferrari weren't using aluminum suspension and drivetrain at that time), and I love how nearly every part has at least two functions.

The IRS diff "hangs" from the frame from lateral truss above the diff cover (part of the diff cover casting), and the tq arm holds up the front of the diff (or holds it down, if under the reaction tq of acceleration), just like the F-Bod tq arm does. I'd say that the forces acting on the 'Vette arm are pretty similar to the forces acting on the F-bod arm; they're mounted to the diff in the same way, and the rest of the system is similar. The biggest difference is the length of the arm's since the F-bod has back seats, that arm is longer, and therefore, the reaction force at the front of the arm is lower for the same rear wheel tq. I think the 'Vette tq arm would do just fine in an f-bod, if you could figure out mounting it. I'd be curious to see if flipping it over if it would mount to the driver's side diff mount on the F-bod? (IOW, is the bolt mount/flange on the two front diff's the same spacing, spread, etc.?)

Probably doesn't matter and not something worth pursuing, but...I wonder. I wonder why they didn't mount the F-bod and 'Vette arms on the same side of the diff/trans, use the same bolt patterns on the diff and trans tail shaft housing, and then copy design and materials?

 

Wow, that diff has a whole lot less holding it in than I figured it would. Pretty cool (or not so cool depending on how you look at it!)

 

*I* think it's pretty cool; it's efficient, IMO. The truss that holds up the diff has WIDE mounts so they could avoid using a heavy steel frame x-member to hold it. Bonus: low deflection at the mount bushings, b/c forces further away from the pinion are lower.