alright i'm 15 and i'm turning 16 in october, and i plan on buying a V6 bird because i dont want anything fast enough to do stupid things in but i wouldnt mind settling for the LO3 but i hear that they are both pretty equal, just wondering which i might want ot look into more , thanks, andrew

 

a lot of it'll depend on what you really want....there are difference with either package. The LO3 will give a better chance of getting in trouble than the 6 cylinder would do. The simple fact is in torque. The horsepower numbers aren't all that different, especially with the cars weight differences. 135-140 (v6 2.8L-3.1L) and the LO3's 170hp. But in the torque market, the LO3 gives roughly 255 lb/ft slightly off idle (2400) while the six cylinders will only make 160-185 lbs/tq between 1985-1992. So, i'd say it'll depend on what you want. Neither will be incredibly fast, but if you have the v8 car you'll be able to upgrade it more easily down the road, plus there are performance parts out there for the small block chevy that are more numberous than those found for the 60 degree v6. Good luck in making your choice and welcome to the boards.

 

Some other bits of info:

The 4-speed automatic transmission (name = 700r4) got stronger as it got newer. For example, an '83 700r4 is garbage, and will probably break on you. But, a '92 700r4 is damn near perfect, and you'll probably never replace it. Most of the longevity changes were made in 1987.

The 82-92 seatbelt latches were all recalled by GM. The latches would stop latching! You can tell if you have the bad buttons because they'll fade so badly that they'll look pink. The recall work, which is done FREE because it's a safety recall, gives you 4 new red buttons. A shiny metal clasp holds the "new" buttons in place.

I agree with 85f-bird; for future "upgrades", the 305 is the better move. To change a v6 f-body into a v8 f-body requires a ton of work- including changing the engine wiring harness, computer, front springs, radiator, transmission, etc. To upgrade a v8 to another v8, such as going from a 305 (5.0L) into a 350 (5.7L), you don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. Plus the aftermarket is much more friendly to a v8.

Not that I'm selling the v6 short; it's a great motor, and you can have fun with it; you'll probably save coin on insurance if you're a new driver, and since it's lighter, it can be made to handle turns very well.

But you can kill yourself in any car, no matter what the engine...

 

thanks for your input guys, my cousin has a V6 bird and hes putting a L98 in it and believe me i know how much work there is if i buy a third gen i'll either go with the 3.1 Bird or a 305 bird but the 305 birds are pretty rare around here so...

 

might want to re-think that statement

 

Not really, what happen to that guy on the boards with the 1992, he lived in florida and had 300,000 and some miles on his 3rd Gen. (sorry can't remember the guys ID) Also I know a guy here locally who has a 305 '89 and never touch the tranny other then changed the fluid and filter once. He has 240,000 miles. Tranny life has a lot to with how you abuse it.

 

never knew that

a few rare examples.........

have you ever had a 700R4 apart?

i have, and one that has been abused is not pretty

 

Yep!

4L60 and 700r4 after '88 are damn good when you compare to F*rd and Dodge.

H*nd* transmission last forever but they shift harsh their hole lives.

 

lets not start comparing apples to oranges

the fact of the matter is that the 700R4 was a poorly designed tranny from the begining, dont expect alot out of them

i talk to many a people who shudder with disgust when a 700R4 is brought into the conversation

to back up my previous statement, the 700R4 was orginally designed to use an electronic valvebody (the 700R4 finally used an electronic valvebody when it became the 4L60E in late 93) GM engineers did a reverse hackjob on it to convert it to a conventional valvebody because the electronics could not be developed well enough

if you do some research, you will see its the only RWD GM tranny that has the "integrated" overdrive

the 2004R and 4L80E have "add-on" overdrives

 

Well lets just leave it at this, I've got the 4L60 (what GM calls it) in my '92 and I think it's great. What you call rare I call textbook when the car isn't abused.

 

You have a real hate on for the 700R4. But everyone has there **** off's in life. I hate the 2.5L Iron duke, I don't think they ever built a worse engine and no one would ever convince me different. I liked my 700R4, but I have never owned a Turbo 350 or 400, and never really abused my 700R4 to the point of dieing.

But that was interesting that it was designed to be electronic then had to be worked backwards. That would explain some fatal flaws in its design.

 

its not that i have a hate for it

its that i want you people to be aware of the nature of the beast


i might be coming across wierd, but i am infact trying to help

 

one other thing, "textbook" is fine in theory, because thats exactly what it is

theory



what actually happens in the real world is totally different for there is much more that needs to be taken into account

 

Yep teenagers pulling the p*ss out of stuff, flooring it from stop signs, drag racing, street racing, high RPM dump shifts, burn outs, school yard donuts, pulling it into drive before stoping from reverse, reving it up in netrual then pulling it into drivem, towing U-hauls to their next apartment. I've seen it all.

I have 95,000 on mine and i have NO doubt that it will reach 200,000 with out a problem. The guy with the '89 was a middle age guy who drove in city traffic everyday and got 240,000 (still going strong). IT"S ALL ABOUT ABUSE AND DRIVING STYLE. Damit wish I could remember that guy's ID from Florida, anybody??

 

I aggree 100%, I am in University learning textbook theory, and I can do the math sometimes and other times I can't. But these guys that can do the math dont know what the numbers mean. I can see if something is going to air-lock, or shear off etc. from looking it over, and thinking of it from practical knowledge. These guys that are going to become an engineer think you should go get a new car if they hear your fan belt squeak because its cold outside. Its pretty scary eh.

I hate how you can A+ in all subjects and get into a great job and still not understand that water only flows up hill on paper.

 

your leaving out many factors though

build quality

maintenance

hell, maybe somebody ran over a brick and it crushed their trans pan



your theory is all fine and dandy, but once it meets real world factors, it fails miserably

btw, my all original 3.1 engine has 196,000 miles on it and i beat the **** out of it daily

explain that one to me please

 

pretty much

 

ive not had my car for very long, but it has 197,000 miles on it with a 700R4 Tranny. I got the car for 100$ from by freind because he thought he destroyed the tranny when he hit something in the road. (All he did was break the tranny fluid filter so it couldnt draw up fluid) Everything else on the car is perfect exept it needs new paint and the center console is cracked.

Ive been driving mine almost daily for the past 6 months and it seems to be working perfectly. Nice solid firm shifts, never skips or anything like that.

 

but your tranny...?

Thank you Soft Taco, i'll add you to my list.

 

i give up


everything is perfect

its a perfect world

its a perfect universe

 

ryan-

lets get back on track here

you still lack the knowledge that a 4L60 IS a 700R4, judging by your previous posts

maybe its because i work in the field that i see the dreaded (for you people anyway) side of things

how about the fellow with the brand new truck, had it for about 2 monthes and needed to get his 4L60E rebuilt because of reaction sun shell failure


its not a perfect world

its far from it

700R4s are far from a perfect transmission

it is my opinion, as shared by many

end of discussion

 

Agreed, my experiences are different then yours, so my opionion is different then yours.

 

so what do you vguys think is the best tranny for our f-bodys, i really want a 5 speed but i can't fined one

 

Depends on what you're using it for.. auto cars are the most abundant, of course.. and you're limited to the 700-R4 specifically designed for the 60 degree V6.. and.. uhm.. well.. autos are traditionally best for drag racing.. whereas small cube v6s traditionally suck for drag racing.

You can find stock manual transmissions in the 4 and 5 speed department.. or you can dig up a compatable clutch that will let you use a different transmission..

Easiest on the manual side is a straight camaro T5 swap.. stock clutch, stock freakin everything.. not the easiest swap in the world, but hey. Manuals are better for autocrossing, and I'm partial to their reliability vs. autos for daily drivers.. and the light weight of the v6 power plant meshes with twisties pretty well.

 

Lets not forget that people hated the TH350 when it first came out, too. They dumped them for powerglides because the 3-speed TH350's were too complicated, broke too often, etc.

Now you won't find a more commonly used transmission then the TH350 for engine swaps and buildups!

Abuse anything and it'll break; just a matter of time. And, heh, guess the clock hasn't run out on my 2.8 yet, some old woman nearly took me out in a circle (don't people know how to drive those damn things??), I was pissed, stomped on it to get by her, and wound up taking off -and- chirping the rear tire.

 

I will add to the list of a bad 700r4, 175,000 miles, had to be rebuilt. I'm sure it got its sare of abused driving coming from a 18yo male. I still dislike the way it shifts.

As for the orginal question, the 3.1l is a decent engine if your not looking to move majorly fast, and save on some insurance. Some minor upgrades for better milage. Hope you find what your looking for, at a decent price, and continue to attend the site, share your experiences with us, while we share ours with you.

 

Fact: Heat kills transmissions.

Fact: F-bodies run hot from the factory ( 195*-225*normal operation range) They are mostly at 220*

Fact: Your trans is cooled by the radiator (aux oil reservoir on the side of it) every 20* increase in trans fluid will cut the life of your trans in half (another 20* and cut that number in half again, and so on. You start hot roddin a stock 700r4 with a stock colling system and you'll be lucky to get 50,000 miles out of it.

Solution to the problem- Lower your running temp, this will help dramatically in prolonging its life. Biggest problem here with most people is they don't spend their money where they should- everybody would rather spend $100 towards making their car run faster rather than run longer- not me- I do things the right way.

 

Agree!

Sucks, best bet is a fan switch screwed into KED85's favorite plug.

The tranny cooler in a GM radiator SUCKS! If you get an aftermarket radiator like a 3 row that I got, it has an awsome 2 foot coil of 1/8 inch tubing roundy roundy, 1 inch diamater coil.

Cost isn't that much, when yours is already broken. Autozone for example has the 1 row replacement with the crapy plastic ends for 89.99 or the 3 row for 149.99 which has brass ends that won't break, 3 rows and the awsome tranny cooler.

Some folks vote for a separte cooler in front of the radiator and evaporator core. Water picks up heat faster and more efficent then air and when I use fan switch I can get up to a 50 degree temp difference when used with the 3 row.

Example: 200 water in after the fan runs a bit outlet 150 (right where the tranny cooler is)

 

Back to the original point of this thread.

If i were you(and i know i am going to be the one looking at these cars) I would look for a 305tbi.

That engine wont let you get too crazy, is good on gas, and has way more potential for modding once you get the hang of things.

Thats just my opinion, cause i know you wanted it

 

I got a B&M or something like that tranny cooler from Summit for like $50. :P

 

I have 170K miles on my 3.1 liter V6 auto tranny. I have only changed the fluid one time, about 90K miles ago. I run 75 HP nitrous shot on the engine, and other than a little slipping on the 1-2 shift when using the nitrous, I have never had a problem with my tranny at all. It still works just like it did when I bought it brand new. I don't have a cooler on it either, although it would be a really good idea to put one on there. I probably will do that in the future, just because it will help the trans to last longer. If I ever do pull my tranny out to have it freshened up, it is going to get the V8 clutch packs and a few other improvements before it goes back in.

If I were you, buying my first car and being 16, I would try to get a good V6 car for cheap, and then get used to driving it. The insurance company doesn't care that the car is a TBI 305 with only 170 HP, all they see is: 16 year old driving a V8 F-body. Cha Ching!! Take good care of this car, and fix any cosmetic things wrong with it, and if you later decide you want a V8 car, sell this one. YOu will be able to get it cheaper, insure it cheaper, and it will get better gas mileage. It won't be the hot ticket for performance, but neither will the 305. No, it won't be as easy to modify for power, but it will be a great car to learn on. I would go with the 3.1 liter car (1990-1992) if you can find one. They have a little more torque than the 2.8 liter engine. Just my opinion, given for someone who wants their first car.

 

Cool pontiacguy1, i'll add you to my list. 170k and running nitrous

 

My car only has 77,000 on the meter. My 700R4 is still shifting like brand new.

I think abuse is part of the deal. I agree that not all components are the same. Most stock vehicles have thier design flaws. Many of them in our cars can be overcome.

Go for the 305TBI. The LO3 is a reliable engine and you can do the upgrade to a better engine and transmission combo later. It's not overwhelming in it's stock form. A good entry into the V8 world. If you don't finance the car you don't have to pay for full covereage. It may be high for liability only, but not to bad.

That's my $0.02 cents.

 

thanks a bunch all, i found a 305 bird at my school for sale that only has 80,xxx miles on it it neeeds paint though, i'll ask him how much he wants on monday


-andrew