TechSmurf

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=221968

Anyone with information concerning the pinouts (or other relevant data) of the 1227302 ECU (86-89 MAF V6), please report to the DFI/ECM board.

Finishing a guide for this swap will open pandora's box. Once the 1227165 swap is a green light, verbose existing documentation pertaining to 1227165 (TPI MAF) to 1227730 (TPI/V6 MAP) and 1227749 (Syclone/Typhoon Turbo MAP) becomes *useful* to us. In other words, if we can do this, we can do anything. Go team!

TechSmurf

Come on, folks.. someone?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

sorry, this ecm stuff is currently over my head. Maybe someday I can learn it, but my brain is to fried right now from cam and valvetrain info.

Gumby

I think your just talking above to many people. I have no idea what your talking about. But I also have never showed much interest in how the computer works or why.
Long as it does I'm happy.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

TechSmurf, Santa showed up at your post. . .

RBob.

TechSmurf

Harness repin, in 302 order
Need to make sure MAF is grounded after this swap, as A11 is left empty. 165 may want MAF ground at pin A11. This will require actual testing. Please feel free to post any other issues you see.

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If anyone has a 165 laying around + chip burning equipment and a heap of boredom, feel free to try this. It's a simple enough swap to do, fail, and undo. Just label the wires with their original position.

Tried and Trusted swap guides are available that tell you exactly how to perform the repin.

Rechipping info is in the works

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:hail: :hail: :hail: RBob :hail: :hail: :hail:

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Within the next couple of days I will extrapolate this data into a little calculation weblet for interswap pinouts between the 1227302 (V6 MPFI MAF), 1227165 (TPI MAF), 1227730 (V6/TPI Speed Density), and 1227749 (Syclone/Typhoon Turbo Speed Density)

Gumby

So what will all the do?

Plz talk down so I can understand.


My brain hurt from trying to follow this thread.

Doward

Are you being serious? Ok, long story short -

Techsmurf = 302 to 165 swap. Needed 302 pinout. LOL

TechSmurf

yeah.. I'm sure someone will want this data at some point.. especially if anyone ever digs up a $32B .ecu file (hey.. tunercats is cool if nothing else.. GMPCM might have one too)

Getting a bare 3A into english would be nice, too.. I don't particularly care about the ECU, but a plain text version of the fuel maps and spark advance would be wonderful for base-tuning a new chip

also, I'm not 302 to 165.. I'm 302 to 749. Turbo Speed Density, baby!


Btw, for those who wish to somewhat understand, all of the above mentioned ECUs (165, 730, 749) are P4 (second gen OBD-I) PCMs.. they are faster, have MUCH more info stored in the chip (4x-8x more.. our ECUs are a 4kb program, P4 are 16kb-32kb) meaning more tables, bigger tables, and better options overall. A happy little side effect of this is the 8192 baud ALDL data rate (~12 FPS datalog) vs our current 160 baud ALDL data rate (~1.2 seconds per frame datalog).

Another side effect, the 302 simply hasn't been openly cracked and mucked around with.. the 165, 730, and 749 have. Many more people are working on those ECUs.. noone cares about the 302.

There's probably other advantages I'm not aware of since I'm not deeply into chip burning yet (a chip burner would help.. 3 weeks, hopefully).. any other questions?

eric17422001

I have been following threads on this and other PROM stuff and although it is entirely over my head I gather that for boosted applications the ability to tune the fuel map is/will be far greater with the ability to swap to these other OBD-1 second generation ECM's.

What about us left out in the cold with '90-'92 MAP systems for which nobody has yet to come up with anything to decipher the data? I mean, as I understand it you can burn and swap chips for it, but it's a crapshoot, sort of like "turn the distributor until it's hard to crank and then back it off a smidge" tuning.

Doward- I know you have swapped a 3.1 in but you had an original 2.8 car so I assume you are running the 302 ECU?

Eric

TechSmurf

Actually.. oh, wow.. I thought the 90-92 ECUs were 7730s. yikes.

16196404, eh.. I don't see any good info on it offhand. Most of the FWD 2.8/3.1 guys got the 7730.. hmm.

I can try to dig up a little info.. it's possible they're closely related to the 7730 and noone's bothered to really look into it. If anyone has a spare one of these laying around they're willing to dismantle.. or one in a car they're willing to at least take pictures of the connectors, preferabbly with enough zoom and light to distinguish wire colors.. might be able to get an idea..

anyway, you guys are pretty much covered from what I understand. Pasky started on a datalogger for the 3.1, and the $88 code has been cracked at least by tunercat. Might be a .ecu floating around.

eric17422001

You can check some past posts on that but I believe Pasky got AIM91 the info but he was not successful, the computer kept timing out or something when he was trying to get data.

I've never even pulled the ECU out from under my dash, I'll have to see what it is.

Eric

Doward

Yep... the stock 302 ecu in the '86-'89 MAF based 2.8s is good until about 12psi, reliably.

Gumby

Thats good to hear. Any PSI is good PSI. 20+ might be neat but Id be happy with 12.

TechSmurf

The 749 with a 3 bar map sensor can do just a hair under 30psi.. with a 510g/sec MAF setup on the 165, 34+ psi is doable.

Just remember, Doward, the 3.1 will flow more air.. 255g/sec will come faster. Wasn't 12psi on the 302 listed for the 2.8?

TomP

Wow, I missed alot, huh? So I could actually throw my MAF chip into a 90-92 ECM? The prom pinouts are the same?

Doward

Yep, but don't forget too, you can set up a dual stage boost controller, and have 12 psi all the time, hit the button to activate the second stage @ WOT, and go to 18+ psi in PE mode, if you've had the prom wideband tuned for the setup. Not hard, really, but time consuming!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I have a 1991 ECM service# 01227730 AUJW sitting on my desk. What pictures do you need?

Also, I have the cable and program to read it, but I dont have a laptop. So next week I plan on sitting my desktop up out in the garage, and attempting to log in while at idle, and in gear.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

heres 7730, I have full size, and if your not in huge hurry, I can take some in 35mm and have them developed. Will look much better.

TechSmurf

No, the PROMs are totally different.. P4 proms contain 4x more data. You'd have to tune from pretty much scratch unless we get a good plain-text version of the stock PROM's parameters.. if we get the parameters, we can at least get a baseline PROM done.


Dale, is that ECU the stock ECU for your 91?... My info said they didn't use the 7730 on the V6s.. wtf?

Oh, and what I needed pictures of was the wiring harness.. preferrably one good picture of each harness, with reference to it being the AB, CD, or EF harness... and reference to pin 1.. need to see wire colors to figure out if it's the same as the TPI cars.. if so, you guys are pretty much set, though you can switch to a 7749 in a matter of minutes (prom tuning not included) if you wanted to go turbo... dang, if the stock V6s used the 7730, I can actually get a decent memcal for my 7749 swap.. sweet deal

Dale

iTrader: (12)

This is what is said to be stock in mine. I will check the one in the car today for you. I also have easy access to it in the car, so I will attempt to get pictures for you. If nothing else, I will try a pin diagram.

Wait, I have the gm helms manual, I bet it has pin diagram(s) in it, will look for that today also.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Book didnt have pin layout like I was thinking. Someone needs to get on alldata and get the one I was thinking. But heres what I "understood" from the helms manual. If you want, tonight I can scan the pages.

BTW, car is running on a 7730


pin layout 1991 3.1 v6 from helms..
E12 WHITE/BLACK DIAGNOSTIC
A12 BLACK/WHITE GROUND
D6 BLACK/WHITE INJECTOR DRIVERS
D7 BLACK/WHITE INJECTOR DRIVERS
A8 ORANGE SERIAL DATA
D1 BLACK/WHITE GROUND
E15 TAN O2 GROUND
E14 PPL O2 SIGNAL
F10 DK BLU VATS
B9 PPL VSS LOW
B10 YEL VSS HIGH
B11 GRAY VSS OUT 4000PPM
C1 RED VSS OUT 2000PPM
F16 TAN MAT
B5 BLK VSS GROUND
F13 DK BLU TPS SIGNAL
A5 GRAY TPS 5V
A4 GRAY MAP 5V
F15 LT GRN MAP SIGNAL
B6 BLK MAP GROUND
E16 YEL CTS
F9 DK BLU KNOCK SIGNAL
E3 BLU/WHT IAC A HIGH
E4 BLU/BLK IAC A LOW
E5 GRN/WHT IAC B HI
E6 GRN/BLK IAC B LOW
D16 ORN/BLK PARK SWITCH
A6 PNK/BLK IGNITION
C11 DK BLU INJECTOR
C12 DK GRN INJECTOR
C8 WHT EST
D8 PPL/WHT REFERENCE (EST)
C7 TAN/BLK BYPASS (EST)
D9 BLK/RED REF LOW (EST)
C16 ORN POWER
B1 ORN POWER
A11 GRN/WHT FUEL PUMP DRIVE
A12 BLK/WHT GROUND
E13 GRAY FUEL SIGNAL
E7 BRN/WHT SES LIGHT
D14 LT BLU 4TH GEAR SWITCH
F6 TAN/BLK SHIFT LIGHT
F7 GRN/YEL PURGE CANISTER
F2 BRN AIR SOLENOID
F5 RED EGR 3
F4 BRN EGR 2
E9 LT BLU EGR 1
C9 GRN/BLK A/C REQ
F1 GRN/WHT A/C CONT
D13 BLU/ORN POWER STEERING
E8 GRN/WHT FAN
D12 DK BLU FAN REQUEST

A-B PLUG IS 24 PIN BLACK
C-D PLUG IS 32 PIN BLACK
E-F PLUG IS 32 PIN YELLOW

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yep, '90-'92 V6 SD f-bodys used the '7730 ECM.

Dale, if you someday decide to go back to a stock chip AZTY superseeded the AUJW BCC.

In the whole scheme of things and staying emissions legit, the biggest difference is in the EGR. 2.8's having a vacuum controlled one with the 3.1's having the digital one.

If staying MAF and upgrading to the '165 it will handle the vacuum controlled EGR. If going from MAF to SD it would be best to also upgrade to a digital EGR.

If already SD and want boost and emissions, use the '730 and go with the $8F mask. The $8F mask was used in the Turbo Grand Prix's. A v6 3.1l FWD vehicle. I am fairly certain that they too used a digital EGR. So it is almost plug & play. Change to a 2 bar MAP, change KREFANGLE in the bin and go. (KREFANGLE is the inital timing setting, the turbo 3.1s were DIS).

For ease of tuning a MAF setup is better. The code ($32B & $6E) that runs in the '165 MAF systems has been hac'd to death, there are free PC based scan tools/data loggers around, and lots of folks are familiar with them. This also allows the use of the V8 MAF.

If the digital EGR isn't used and want to stay/go boosted SD, can use either the '7749 or the '7730 ECM and the $58 mask. The $58 mask is used in the Turbo Sunbirds, GrandAms, and the Sy/Ty trucks. Again, hac'd to death with good support.

RBob.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

rbob, I'm wanting a custom chip as the jetchip I have doesnt work.

I'm not sure what chip the car is currently running on, the cover is screwed down and doesnt say on outside like one pictured. If I must stay with stock, I will keep an eye out in the junk yards for the chip you quoted. thanks!