I was trying to stop to make a turn the other day.. and my brake pedal went to the floor... I was like, damnit! I yanked on my ebrake (which hardly works) and stopped just in time to not kill anyone(myself), but it was pretty scary to say the least.... I figured it had to be the power booster because I couldn't find any leaks (it was raining)... well $25 later, I find out that's not the problem, and that some idiot who worked on my brakes before didn't properly put the rubber brake hose that goes to the caliper in its correct mount (it was slightly bent, but easily fixed), and it was rubbing on my car when I turned, maybe the rotor itself, dunno.. anyways if frayed through, and when I used my brakes very moderately they would stop the car, but after about 30% down, and it just plummitted to the floor... now I have the hose on, but I cannot figure out the bracket that fits in the middle of the rubber hose (where the metal fitting it with a small removable ring-clamp)... is the metal fitting in the middle of the hose supposed to clamp right where the bracket is located on the back of the rotor area, not the one where the rubber meets the metal line... The clamp is slightly bent, and right now only the rubber part of the hose is sitting in the metal bracket... doesn't seem very safe to me... just wondering if I should bend the bracket some more and try to get the metal part in the middle of the hose to fit in there, and clamp in there with the ring it came with, just like where the metal part attaches to the rubber hose... I'm just not sure what kind of damage can be caused if the hose is not in the EXACT right spot...
the hose seems to go sorta between the strut and the car... can it get pinched there? I wasn's sure if that part could move left or right, so maybe its okay?

Also, does anyone know how you can "bench bleed" the brake system? Someone at a shop was trying to explain it to me, unsuccesfully... somehow you do this without speedbleeders, and only one person.. it involves making sure the resivoir is always full, and you put a bucket at the line you are bleeding to reuse fluid... but I am still confused as how this keeps the air bubbles out, and if this is even a good way to do it...

Thanks,

Steve

 

This is the way the hose is intended to go.

 

man, that's what I was afraid of, it seems that the hose is nearly impossible to stretch that far to get the metal fitting to get anywhere near there... I might just have to get the metal part as close as possible, and bent the bracket down to reach... maybe the replacement hose isn't the right length exactly? Does it seem that without that bracket that the hose would be destroyed? The only reason my hose was destroyed, was because it was rubbing on the bracket that whoever did the brakes was too lazy to get the metal part clamped in there... I might just have to bend the bracket and use some wire, or zip ties to get it to stay.

 

Then rubber hoses are famous for collapsing on the inside. The out side of the hose will look OK but the insides fall apart. I had my front left stick shut several times. was just that hose looked OK but inside was trash. The rubber liner cam off plug my hose.


What you want to do is a gravity bleed. Have a big can of fluid. You undo each tire at a time and just let the brake fluid bleed out. Let a full reservoirs for each tire leak out. It will be as nice as a regular brake bleed.


A bench bleed is just pouring fluid into the brake master cylinder before you install it. Incas you lines are OK n bleed well. You can just bench bleed the mc so there is no need to bleed the system once its installed.

If you can afford $15-20 vacuum brake bleeder from an auto parts store Id buy one. But myself I am a fan of the gravity bleed. Jut make sure it never goes empty. Its easy to do as you seam to be waiting a while but it will bleed out fast.

 

I see, so you reuse the fluid that drips down, and just keep the resevoir full?

also, the MC came with a bleeder kit that had plastic hoses that recycled the fluid, so that was almost completely bled, even shook the car and got those bubbles... dunno, but I definitely had to bleed my brakes... and now I also have to do the rear brakes, because its all mushy still...

 

no, you have a big bottle of brake fluid n keep filling it with fresh.

 

okay, but this method works by just pooring in a ton of brake fluid and letting it all drain out, with the nut loosened at the wheel on the bleeder valve? Do you also pump the brakes, or just sit there and let it poor out? I might have to do this for my rear drums tomorrow... and they have long-*** lines...

 

The pain is when air gets trapped in the m/c. You have to bench bleed it because the booster is angled upward. To get the m/c body "level" with the ground, you'd have to raise the car's *** about 20 feet in the air.

Pull the m/c off, tighten it down in a bench vise. You'd need a bench bleed kit which is just two hoses and two fittings. The m/c also has a quick-take-up-valve in it- at the base of the m/c, near where it bolts to the booster, there's a bulge at the bottom- that's the quick take-up valve. This acts like a second fluid reservoir and it's a bitch to bleed out. A gravity bleed won't get air out of there. You have to short stroke the m/c a few times, then when you're doing the full strokes, you need to wait between strokes for the QTV to fill up and the air to seep out. It sucks.

If the m/c body isn't level with the ground then air will get trapped at the "front" of the m/c body- the piece closest to the front bumper of the car.

It's all covered in the Haynes 82-92 book, as well as the GM service manual.

When I did the rear disc brake axle swap, I went through bleeding hell, and finally spent the best $140 in my life at http://www.brakebleeder.com for the V12. Got air-free lines in a heartbeat- and I was going thru tons of brake fluid with those damn discs. (The bad m/c I got didn't help, either.) http://www.paradisetools.com has a better price on the Phoenix Injector, I think... do a search for "brake bleed" and something should turn up. The PI does an actual pressure bleed, just like the real mechanics can do with their $800 snap-on stuff. There's no pedal-pumping involved at all.

When you put the new hose on, remember that you'll also need two copper "crush washers", the dealer should have them if the local morons at pep boys/etc don't.

And when you install the brake hose, don't twist it. Hoses usually come ribbed, or with a pink line painted down the side- keep the ribs or the pink line STRAIGHT, if you twist the hose when you install it, it'll fail fast.

The brass fitting in the middle of the hose- the same fitting that goes into the bracket- will only fit the bracket one way. A left front hose and right front hose are the same length with the same ends, but the middle piece that goes into the bracket faces a slightly different way.

[edit] Oops, I meant http://www.toolparadise.com - they have the V12 w/smart pak & red case (the exact thing I bought) for only $90. Instead of searching for "brake bleeder" and seeing the expensive stuff, put in "phoenix injector" into their search box.

Oh and with all the problems you seem to be having with that bracket, if I were you, I'd go to a junkyard and get one- from the same side that you need.

 

well.. an update... I bought the hose, and there was no pink line... and to make it fit the exact way as the old one, I had to bend it, slightly, but not rotate really... and for the bracket, the "keyed" part was kinda bent, so I just expanded the opening on the bracket and put the metal part of the rubber hose in there and squeezed the bracket closed on it... its snug in there and the hose is safe from all obsticles...

Now about the master cylinder... Do you have to bench bleed it in a vice?? because the instructions showed it being in the car, and it came with those rubber hoses you attach and run into the resevoir... you pump the brakes a bunch and shake the car etc and when you stop getting bubbles, you are done... but you say there is probably still air in the mc? I bled all my brakes today and the car stops great... the tires can' lock up, but it stops great... (I have never been able to get the tires to lock up) and my car no longer pulls to the left when I brake, yay!

So I should pull the mc and bench bleed it? this almost doesn't seem fun... maybe I should just rent a crane and lift my car...

or maybe you can just lift up the rear end really high, and let it bleed...

 

Personally I spend the $30/$40 & let a shop do it.
WHY?
I keep an eye on their work & my hands are clean
On my car I replaced the front rubber lines & back rubber line and back drum wheel cylinders. In my choice of rbber hoses, also no lines down side and yes I also "twisted" slightly the frnt hoses, too (to fit in that fitting).
I did work on front (bleeding brakes, too), let the shop do work on back brakes & then they bled whole system with fresh fluid again.
Why not Brake fluid is dirt cheap.
On my Corvette
I do the brake fluid in a bottle at the wheel you are bleeding resivour thing trick and it does work!
I "slowly" pump brakes for my Corvette. Yes definetly keep brake resivour full!
Remove your cylinder NOW?
Why You fixed it!
Come work on my Blazer since ya got so much time!

 

well.. how easy is it for most of you guys to lock up your tires? I can pretty much only do it when its raining...

 

tomp you dont have to raise it 20 ft lol, i was reading the haynes manual and it has instructions on how to bleed the master cylinder without even taking it off , should this be trusted? , or should i go get a kit


i can only lock my tires if i put my whole body weight on it , but when it rains the fronts lock up pretty quickly , im not looking for locking up im looking for the car having enuff pedal to slow the car down , i dont want to break through the firewall with my foot slamming on the pedal so hard!

 

same here... sometimes if I have to stop REALLY hard... it just keep moving farther than I should... but never do my tires lock up unless its wet... I think I should roll my car on some ramps, then re-bleed the master cylinder with those bleeder hoses it came with, then re-bleed the whole system.... because when I first put in the new cylinder, my car stopped rather evenly... but now it pulls to the left like crazy! guess that means that the right brakes have some air in em

 

i know how you feel man, its the little things that you tend to ignore but then when its there it kind of creeps up and starts bothering you again, my brakes always sucked, i had the car since march and its gotten a little better with the bleeding, im attempting to bleed the master cylinder the way my haynes book saids to

 

http://www.misterfixit.com/brakbld1.htm

 

i already have that link, thanks though

 

Be careful with those bench-bleed kits; they all seem to be threaded for standard (SAE, 82-83) threads, and not metric (ISO, 84-2004) threads. So when you push the m/c piston in, fluid does get recirculated back to the reservoir- but when you let the piston back out, you can suck air from around the plastic fittings in the kit. If the bench bleed kit comes with black hose, go to Pep Boys/Autozone/etc and buy clear vinyl tubing- use the clear so you can see bubbles.

And yeah, it might not be 20 feet, but it's higher than I could get the car with my jackstands cranked all the way up, and the front of my car (without tires) sitting on the ground! (I tried everything...)

Remember what I said about short-stroking the m/c piston b/c of the quick take up valve!

 

i have gone to autozone and strauss and the only kits i see dont have plugs for the hose, they have tips that go in them , no screwing involved, should i find a better kit?

 

This will solve all of your problems:

GET A MITY-VAC!

This is a vacuum pump kit that comes with EVERYTHING needed to bleed the complete brake system. For the master cylinder (yes I do know what I am talking about- I had to do this) you need the rest of the bleeder setup (cup with cap and hose, pump, vac hose to cup vac inlet, and hose to bleeder cup) but instead of using a bleeder attachment according to instructions, you need to use the suction-cup shaped thing that comes in the kit. Stick the suction cup over the hole in the bottom of the reservoir to be bled and apply the vacuum. Go inside the car and pump the brakes ever so slowly TWICE (anymore than twice and you have to clean out the pump-YUCK!), go out and release the vacuum and dump the cup, and do it again for the other reservoir. I had a nasty air bubble in the MC or combination valve (don't know which but the BRAKE light was on) and this process got rid of it.

Use the B size bleeder attachments on the rears and the larger ones (can't remember the letter at the moment and I don't think I can find them either) for the fronts. When you do this, you pump the handle until you get about 20 in./Hg vacuum and the cup gets about 2 in. of brake fluid in it, then release the vacuum (if you don't, you'll have to take apart the pump to clean the heck out of it! ). After each wheel, go to the front and refill the MC.

 

interesting... so if you bleed the mc ON the car... how much air is probably still inside it? That's what I did, because I'm an idiot...

If air was still in the MC does that mean that it could have been transferred to all the other wheels, and re-bleeding them would help? My car now pulls to the left, just like it did before I replaced my MC... as if someone didn't do it right before... the first 50 miles my car didn't pull, but I guess the air bubbles moved around from driving, and went into my right wheel...

 

You did check the calipers and cylinders, didn't you? My car did the same thing and I found out when I did my front brakes that the dust boot on the left front caliper had torn and the piston rusted in place, and the right one had some bad damage due to some idiot losing the guide bushings when he redid that side...

Two calipers, a set of pads, two hoses, and a $29 MIty-Vac set fixed all of the above.

And rebleeding the entire system wouldn't hurt either... it might even help .

Oh, I forgot to mention, the last time I bled the system (including the MC) the front end was on JACKSTANDS, and there is not any amount of air in there that I can tell, and I have driven using the new brakes.

 

I thought the rear needed to be lifted for that to work... but I guess with the vac... hrm... I already bled the entire system, but I guess I could do it again...

question about this mightvac... what exactly is it? an attachment for a shopvac or what? I honestly have never heard of it? is it a general-purpose tool, or specific for brakes, or what?

also the caliper is brand new on the side that is pulling.... dunno if there is a correlation, but I still think that its bleeding issue, because it was working for a few days, then got worse again, after the air bubbles moved I guess.

 

Pulling
This is what I have discovered.
IF the steering wheel PULLS your car as ya brake, it's in front brake system
and if the car PULLS "but NOT THE STEERING WHEEL"
REAR BRAKE PROBLEM
AND Finally
the direction of the "pull"
IF it pulls to right, the LEFT brake system is "failing" & yes, the opposite.
Give your wheels a look and ya may see your solution.
Furthest brake from master cylinder is passenger side rear.

 

The Mity-Vac is a handheld vacuum pump that can test any and all vacuum operated equipment you can imagine except for larger items such as the brake booster (not enough vac pull). When you use the bleeder attachments, take the screws out and clean them up real good so they can turn if you rotate the bleeder nozzle from the Mity-Vac so you can close the screws without air gaining entry to the system.

Bleeding goes as follows if you didn't know it already: right rear, left rear, right front, left front. NO OTHER WAY or you end up with air in the system.

 

Actually Mav, the <a href="http://www.brakebleeder.com" target="newwin">Phoenix Injector</a> will solve everything, because you don't have to pump the brake pedal ONCE! But the <a href="http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?iProductID=2459" target="newwin">Mityvac</a> is a damned close second! If you do go with the Mityvac, you might want the full pro kit, http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...ProductID=2470 . One of these days, even tho I have the PI (<a href="http://www.brakebleeder.com/v12.htm" target="newwin">V12 model</a>), I'll still pick up the Mityvac pro kit.

 

wow I never knew there was a bleeding order! hrm

does anyone know a good brand of jack or method of jacking up our cars easily? because this is the most pain-in-the-*** part of the whole job... I almost want to go part into a cheap lift...

 

That's WHY
Paying $40-ish for a SHOP to lift car, use their mity-vac and get all wet greasy AND DIRTY (to say the least) is a bargin for this project.
The point that you were not aware of a proper bleeding order shows that ya need a quick education.
A $40 investment to make brakes RIGHT is dirt cheap insurance against an accident that could cost a life.
Sit back and observe and let the shop get it done right. Drive home safe and educated.
Ask around for a decent mechanic shop.

My tranny went in my Firebird.
I have no time to do this job and must pay a shop to do it.
I can't afford to learn, right now, how to rebuild a tranny.
There are times ya MUST farm out work.
Just find the best resources for spending your money.

Spending time & money on your cars brakes to make them work correct is the BEST auto insurance you can have!

 

all this is true... but the weirdest thing is I've seen so many damned people bleed the brakes on cars, and I've done it myself so many times... and not once has anyone mentioned this "bleeding order" to me... nor has anyone done it in a particular order.

The only thing I can think of... is that the bleeding order ONLY matters when you remove the MC... and since I've never seen that before that's why I've never heard of the certain order... I could understand why though.

The only problem with having someone do it... is that it won't be 40 bucks! its like 100 bucks... I've asked a couple of places... always expensive... is it because they will be taking off the mc and re-bleed it or something?

 

To me
Brake bleeding is a "one hour" shop rate job.
I was taught that the bleeding order was, if MC removal or not, that is the proper way to do that job.
Thanks for not taking the response wrong way.

 

I was wondering about this bleeding order. I kinda understand why there would be air in the lines if you start in the front, but do you think you can ellaborate on that a bit? I think I'll tell some people I know and see what they think, maybe it's something everyone knows, but are too lazy to do in practice... I'm stumped.

 

Here's the scoop. If you just change one line, and you're absolutely sure that no air got into the other lines, you can just bleed the one line. This isn't always the case!

The m/c has two circuits coming out of it; front and rear. The prop valve has three circuits coming out; front left, front right, and rear. At the rear axle is where the split occurs for rear left and rear front.

The left rear is the furthest wheel, in terms of tubing length, from the master cylinder. Bleeding order goes from the furthest wheel to the nearest wheel.

This is because you want to eliminate any air from getting pulled into a wheel that you've already bled.

Say you had air in the rear line, but decided to bleed the front wheel. While you're bleeding the front wheel, air is still trapped in the rear line. When you finally get around to the rear line, you might wind up pulling that air (from the rear line) into the prop valve, and sending it off to the front wheel!

The rear lines are longest, and can hold the most air. That's why you take care of those first. You don't want that big air bubble getting sucked into the prop valve - or worse, the master cylinder - and getting pushed into the other wheels.

For instance, say you change your front passenger brake hose, and while you're working, you forget to check the master cylinder- and the m/c runs dry. You can't just bleed that one line. Air has gotten into the m/c. The m/c can send that air to any wheel it wants. Plus, air could have gotten into the front driver's side line, b/c of the split at the prop valve.

This is why pressure bleeding is best. With conventional "press the brake pedal down, close the bleeder, release the brake pedal", you can suck air back up into the system, because brake fluid is getting sucked back into the m/c when you release the pedal.

Plus, air rises up! If you get an air bubble in one of the front lines, it could rise up into the prop valve and get into the master cylinder.

With pressure bleeding (aka "Phoenix Injector style"), you never touch the brake pedal. Fluid only flows one way- from the master cylinder "out" to the wheel you're working on.

I was able to pressure bleed my system in no time at all, compared to trying the conventional do-it-yourself brake-pedal-pushing method. The conventional method, while it does work, has much more of a chance to recirculate air while it recirculates fluid.

The Mityvac does a vacuum bleed; it pulls fluid out of the system at the wheel. With the Mityvac, you don't push on the brake pedal either.

Hope this helped, although I probably could have explained it better. It's all about how air can get trapped, and where it can hide, and if you bleed the furthest line first, you slowly eliminate the places the air can hide. If you were to start at a shorter line, air could keep coming up from other places.

 

Oh and if you change a rear line, there's no way (unless you have a pressure bleeder) to just bleed one wheel, because of the "split" at the axle.

It's still always best to bleed all the lines. The better your tools, the faster and better you can get the job done.

In fact, you should flush your brake fluid every now and then. Brake fluid absorbs water- even thru your master cylinder cap!- and that water can do some damage... it can lower the boiling point of the brake fluid, and it can cause the brake lines and calipers and wheel cylinders to rust on the inside.

A fluid flush is done by pushing (or pulling) new fluid thru the line until you get new fluid out of the bleeder screws. YOu also have to scoop all the old black fluid out of the m/c, wipe the inside of the m/c reservoir with a clean LINT-FREE COTTON CLOTH, and fill up the m/c with fresh fluid before starting a flush.

 

NAH
GO GET A TURKEY BASTER FROM THE GROCERY STORE!
Suck out old fluid, wipe MC several times with lint free thingies & fill up fresh fluid.
I like using DOT 4 Valvoline Synthethic Brake fluid
Boiling point is like 500+*!
Cost extra? about maybe a buck, cheap insurance.

 

so what's the bleeding order considering driver/passenger... not left and right... I always get that mixed up.

rear pass, rear driver, front pass, front driver?

 

Correct

 

its more basic then fwd cars, dont fwd cars go something like rear pass, front driver and so on , they cross each other i believe