Can anyone guess what these two pictures are of?

 

I'll even give you a hint... https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=108890

 

Figured out what they were before I read the hint... the hint explained why... so all I have left is to comment on how you must really love you car. Egads.

 

that you do not use a arc welder(stick) to do the work...

please use a mig welder.. becouse you WILL burn throught sheet metal.

well that look's like some kind of project, please keep us updated and becarefull of the gas tank.

 

TS, yeah, I'm sick like that.

Xcelerate, yeah, I'm not using an arc welder. I've got a Lincoln Electric Weld-Pak 100 MIG (see http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...ProductID=1182 ), with the GMAW conversion kit, and a 60 cu ft bottle (with a C25 mix). I've also got a Miller Spectrum 375 Cutmate plasma cutter to do the cutting with. (See https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=238775 )

I'm actually going to be dropping the gas tank to do the job; I wouldn't feel comfortable welding & cutting that close to the tank. Plus, I think it'd just get in the way! As you guys might've read me complaining about, the current (THIRD!!!!) fuel pump's anti-drainback valve is shot. The system's not keeping pressure. So while the tank is out, I'm going to pull that Borg Warner pump, throw it as far as I can, and buy a genuine GM pump for a V8 TPI. I'll also be replacing the pressure hose, which was a special order item about 2 years ago- hopefully it's still made.

After the tank's dropped, I have to create a temporary subframe to brace the car together for when I slice off the rear passenger side. The subframe I make will also help me keep the car jacked up in the air.

The actual welding will be cake; the measuring will be the pain. The rust is so bad that I just can't take pieces off the junkyard 1/4 panel- I'd be there for years. So what's laying in the grass is exactly what's going on! I've got some repairs to make to it, since there are some rust spots on it- and hopefully I'll be doing that this weekend.

I kinda get to go "Monster Garage" on my car; the whole interior's gotta come out- headliner, passenger carpet, hatch carpet, all the plastic, spare tire/jack, all my old stereo system's wiring, etc. (I also have spots to weld up under the floor.) When all is back together, I'll be adding the Alston subframe connectors to the mix- just as a precaution.

 

I guess right rear quarter w/o looking at the hint link.

Best of luck!!!

 

Can I live in your garage?

 

LOL! When I finally do get a garage; I might just buy "only" a garage, and put a bed & refrigerator in the corner. Er, actually, all I'd need would be a bucket seat from an f-body bolted to the garage floor; that's more comfortable then my bed!

I always meant to buy that one Rat Fink shirt... "You get the house, the garage is MINE!"

"Mr Obvious" update... just realized that I was going too in-depth with all the measurements I was taking. I was getting worried about front-to-rear measurements... as in, welding the 1/4 panel too far forwards or too far backwards, and screwing up the axle alignment. Well, duh- I forgot that the roofline has to meet, the hatchback floor has to meet, the rear bumper panel has to meet, and that the door jam needs to meet the rocker panel! So really all I have to worry about for measuring is the left-right measurement... whew.

I realized I could also bolt the track bar brace back in when I'm propping up the new rear section. That should "lock in" the left/right measurement. Granted, I'll still need to measure before I cut, but it'll help as "proof" that I'm doing everything right.

And Eastwood's leading kits went up in price... I guess they got more popular since I last looked. Yes, I'm going to see if I can give leading a shot.

 

I don't get exactly why you are doing this. I remember you talking once about third gens who had their rear half welded back on or something. I guess that was the case with your car and you are fixing it?

Tom, ideally you get a steel garage with a loft. The loft has a kitchen, bedroom and some sort of all purpose room. Downstairs you have your garage that is heated and has AC. The floors have drains for when you want to wash your car and at least one lift. Then you get your tools together and add on a paint booth and you have the ultimate car/living arrangement. At least that is my great idea if it ever happens. I can't believe you're doing this all outside though.

 

That -does- sound sweet! The chicks might not dig it tho, but who cares?

I'll be doing this work in a garage, though- it's just not MY garage, it's my parents... hopefully that goal won't be more than a year away, tho. The garage is tight... it's going to take some creative positioning to be able to do this job and not say, midway through, "Oh damn I should've parked the car a little sideways!!"

 

Good luck dude. Its all I gotta say.

 

You must have some nice parents. I think my parents would kick me out on the spot if I did that.

 

I have not ventured down to the V-6 board in a while and the first post I come upon is TomP doing something crazy.

If you have the skills, you might as well weld it all in. I am sure the outcome will be way better then what you started with.

Good luck Tom.

 

You're just now starting ???.... after all those sleepless nights thinking I wasted all that time typing and taking pictures....

 

Thanks Joe! People keep asking me "what if you mess up so bad that you can't fix it?" First I say "Well, I won't mess up", and then I say "Then I'll just need the complete rear 1/2 of a junkyard car."

Deadbird, that wasn't for waste! I plan on going over all that info you gave me again- "life got in the way" for the past two years- but not any more! I'm drawing up all the plans and parts lists and etc; once I get that solid, then the work starts- yikes.

Funny tho, in the past two years that the rear half has been in the weeds, it didn't get that rusty. I have a few spots I have to repair, but they were there originally.

Here's one spot! I'll be slicing it off and putting new steel in it's place.

 

So about sitting in the weeds. I thought the big problem with grass and weeds is that they have a chemical (like an oil) that rubs off on metal and rusts it... I just heard this, I don't know how true it is. Can anyone confirm it?

I have seen cars set in grass, then put back on the road. Within a year they fall apart. Just a thought.

 

Just dont do what the guy did to his car on pimp my ride i guess it was cut into 3 sections and with mixmatched years. It was welded in like 2 spots the rest was held togheter by industral grade glue.

 

Can someone please inform me again what Tom is about to do?

 

He's about ready to lose his mind

 

Haha, yep, i sure am! Check out that "hint" link I posted, Josh. Here's the long-winded story! The right rear of my car was replaced before it was my car. The car was totalled in a rear-end accident, and a body man fixed it up for his son.

Back in 1995, I got into an accident. When I put new parts on the front, I noticed that the back right side's paint was checked (cracks). So I decided it would be a good time to start stripping off the old paint from the WHOLE CAR, and getting the car painted. That was a stupid move. I wound up leaving most of the car in primer.

In '96, I totalled the car. That was the same summer that I had started saving $$ for a paint job- so all the money went to repairing my car ($250 for parts Firebird, $900 for front frame/windshield swap, a couple hundred in misc parts, and I was back on the road). The only things I didn't do myself were the framework and the windshield swap.

In '97, I got off my butt and did all the bodywork to everything, and had it shot at Maaco for $400. It took me a month straight of work with a power drill and sanding disk (no air tools back then). When I hit the areas that were primered, I found a ton of rust! That's when I learned that primer isn't waterproof. I didn't know better, and just sanded the rust away until I hit shiny metal. I thought that was good enough. I also had to redo all the bondo work to the right rear quarter panel- 90% of that panel was Bondo. Did a damn good job though, nobody could ever tell! (I was so proud- and still am!)

Around 2000, not only was the paint beaten (from not washing/waxing it, darn), but the back started to rust up badly. It was a re-occurance of all the rust I thought I "removed" by sanding it away! You'll see some fun rust spots (cracks, huge holes, etc) in that "hint" link I posted. Anyway, the rust cracks eventually got so bad that it couldn't be fixed by panel replacement. I'd be there for years! So instead, I'll be replacing the whole back right side.

It's actually "easier" than panel replacement because I won't be drilling out spot welds, and I'm also not cutting into frame rails. I'm going to take the whole right rear subframe off the car. Every cut I make, and every weld I make, will be along straight & flat steel- the floor inside the car, the floor in the hatch,and the roof.

That's why the biggest two pains are (a) how to lift the car when the right rear subframe is gone, and (b) getting all the measurements exact so my axle isn't aimed out of whack. Because, since I'm taking the right rear subframe, that's where all the suspension parts tie into. The welding itself will be easy (all flat spots), but man, I have zero room for screwing up. If I was just replacing panels, it wouldn't be as bad if I screwed up- but if I screw up this job, my suspension/axle/etc will be out of line.

 

Wow after reading or skimming over that "hints" page you sure have done a lot to your car. I don't know where everyone is getting these cars with tons of rust, but I know mine was never in the salt belt states. Thankfully I don't have a big issue with rust except above my rear hatch glass. I think if something was that wrong with my car I would have to get rid of it or buy another. You sure are dedicated to your car Tom, not to mention that is cool you have the skills to do that. I wish I knew how to weld, I was going to take a intro class at college but of course there was only one class per semester and it was always filled. I'd love to be doing body work too on my car but I have not the first clue.

Given if everything goes smoothly and you weld it all up right will the car be solid? You should definitely see about getting some pictures together for us as you go along with the process.

 

OK ToM,
For my 'official 100th post' (HI Tech Smurf), I'd like to ask you WHY in the FREAKING jim-jamb are you putting so much effort into a rusty carcas of a 3rd Gen (no offense bro, but WHY man ?).

I was in a similar position back in 2000... I bought an '81 Z28 that was in 'sub-par' condition... and it ended up rusting in the "rear quarters, floor pan, rear subframe, etc.)

I ended up junking that car, but keeping all the parts that would be able to be put on the donor car... '79 Z28.
Long story later... but, that one got sold in favor of the below gem of a '70 Camaro.

OK OK... two boring 2nd Gen stories later... I happened upon the '70 Camaro in Arizona, had it shipped back to Cleveland, OH (the rust belt)... the rest is history.

*** OK, you may ALL wonder where I'm going w/ this post... but, I'm just trying to figure out WHY so much money has been put into an 'obviously rusty' shell ?

Please elaborate Tom...
I'm just curious... not trying to bust your *****.

 

LOL, Mr_Metal! No offense taken, and here's your reason: It's my car.

Actually Josh most of it is just practice; and all you really need for body work is a piece of Home Depot steel (hardware aisle) or a dented junkyard fender (probably for dirt cheap or free), a $5 dolly, an $8 hammer, and a book. Same with the welding, although the materials are a little more expensive. As to it being solid, yes, definately, it will- and I'm also going to add Alston subframe connectors as "insurance" when I'm done. I'll be buying them from Top Down Solutions- Lon is one of thirdgen.org's sponsors, he's the advertisement at the top of this page, the one at the right (TDS).

If I was going to be slicing up the framerails, then I'd be a little worried as to how stable the car would be. Check out the pictures I posted at the top; you can pretty much see the framerail, and how it's surrounded by regular flat steel (floorpan and roof).

Here's a link to those subframe connectors. I like them because they're actually cut & angled to meet up exactly with the factory framerails- it'll tell me if I did my job right. http://www.top-downsolutions.com/pro...products_id=90

 

Tom P,
I SERIOUSLY admire your persistance and devotion to your 'car of choice'.
About 10+ years ago, I had a rusted '72 Buick Skylark that underwent a 'body off the frame' restoration. My friends would look at me and ask the same question(s).
"Why would you spend SO much time on a Skylark ?"(they look like a Chevelle, Cutlass, Le Mans - GM A-body platform).
I ended up buying a complete RUST-FREE body for the car... and sat it on the full frame (not uni-body) and rolled w/ it. Ebay is a wonderful friend.

Basically, I told them the same... "BECAUSE I CAN !"

Good luck Tom, and if you need some Rah-Rah 'keep me focused' replies... keep on posting here !!

 

Tom, looks like you have your work cut out for ya.
It's been awhile since I've been on. I lost my RS last Nov. Damn freak'n *** deer! I should have know when you see one, there more then likely is another. Well, the second popped out from nowhere. I nailed the brakes and due to the slick road that night the RS went to the left with cars coming at me. I let off of the brake and the tires caught a "PATCH" in the road and threw me to the right. Needless to say I went off of the road,thru a ditch and tried to cut down a tree.
Besides being bruised, beaten and pissed......I came out fine. Unfortunant for the deer the car didn't kill her. But after a lug wrench in the hands of a pissed off, wrecked, Camaro owner, she never saw the sun again.

I'm now the owner of a 88 extended cab Chevy truck. Toting a heavy duty brush guard, or as my 6 year old calles it "a deer bumper". And with my newest addition coming this Wednesday, the extra space will be needed. 88 Chevy

I'll have me another RS sometime. But for the time being.....good luck and enjoy, like I know you will.

I'll be watching the progress.

 

MrM, yeah, I'm a little sick like that!

Kevin, good to hear from you! I would've had the exact same reaction if a deer jumped out in front of me... almost bought it last month due to a deer- same thing. Saw one jump out in front, I stopped in time, started to go again- and then I saw the herd! Yikes.

Well, that little rust spot turned out to be HUGE!!! It failed the screwdriver-test big time... I'll see if I can get a picture up. I will say one thing tho, Eastwood's UnderGone undercoat remover works amazing!! Even on that ancient undercoat, it did a great job. http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...ProductID=1684 I just let it sit for a while, and an old screwdriver peeled that junk off without a problem!

 

So does that now mean you have to section a section of the sectioned section

 

My dad won't let me work in his garage (even if you could get a car in it) or his driveway. I live in an apartment, so no help there.

 

I must say, that I admire the work you're putting into your car TomP. I'm sort of in the same boat..I have to replace a section of floor, and part of the frame rail that's on top in your first pic. Not rust...its collision related. I kinda ran something over that mangled it.

Alot of people say I'm nuts for even considering replacing it, and that I should get a new car, blah blah blah...but like you said, its your car! Isnt part of being an enthusiast being enthusiastic about things like this?

I wish you the best of luck...keep us posted how things are going!

 

And I thought my rear quarter panel was bad. After reading the long story what you are about to do doesn't sound as crazy, although If I had totaled my V6 it that would be the end of it. Crazy part is that after all your car has been through you still toughing it out to make it better - talk about dedication. I truelly hope it goes as you planned.

 

I just thought of something funny. By my parents' house there is a place called Tom's Custom Autobody.

And when you're done with your car TomP, mine has some rust spots you can work on.

 

Tom,

I KNOW there was a post on this a long time back, because Jim85IROC was involved, and I saved some pics...

I suggest you plan first where you want to make the panel replacement, are you going all the way to the door jamb? How far up the roof? Then mark it with some masking tape. Get some strong tubing, at least 3/16th walls, and weld in a jig, to hold the integrity of the car before you cut out the quarter, otherwise the whole thing could collapse some and loose its original dimensions.

As stated before, try to put your welds where the factory spot welds are. You can drill out the old spot welds, and then by putting holes in the new replacement panel in roughly the same spot, you can run some tack welds to hold the panel back in place. If you still want to run a full bead along the panel, that's your choice. I wouldn't unless I had a tig welder handy, but that's just me. Doing it with a mig is going to involve a lot of tack welding. Even if your welder will run a full bead on material that thin, you'll spend more time grinding it than you'll want to.

Mathius

 

Another

 

last one

 

Resurrected!!! How's the body work going?

 

Uh, body work? What body work? OH- hey yeah, I gotta get started on that again, huh? I meant to come back here and post pictures...

FIRST, Mathius, thanks for those pictures!! That's a wild "inside" view. My rust actually goes much worse than that- and since that's an 87-89 model (and not an '86), I wonder if GM changed some things. I'm actually going to go looking for a grease pen, or paint pen, or similar, to do my markings- know where I can get one from? I'm looking for the thing like the junkyards use; that slimy yellow pen.

The whole piece in the my pictures is going on the car. That means I'll be taking a section of the roof (where the b-pillar meets), taking the rear of the door jam (including the whole striker bolt area), and going right down to the rocker panel. The floor and control arm are also coming over. I'm extending all the way back to the rear of the car, including the rear frame rail and bumper mount, and tail-light panel. This makes for the easiest weld job, since everything will be flat metal.

And I agree w/the jig idea, I mentioned that in my 3rd message from the top, but didn't go into details. Basically I'll be welding tube steel from the floor to the roof, to keep the car from caving in on the passenger side. At the floor point, I'll be tacking on more tube steel to go up the back "slant" behind the rear seat, and along the hatchback between the rear seat and the hatch well. I'll extend the tube "straight over" the hatch well and tack it to the tail-light panel. Then I'm going to tack in some cross-tubes to tie everything into the drivers' side of the car. This will all (hopefully) be done with the car level, in the driveway, with the suspension loaded. This "tom-frame" will also serve as a jacking point for underneath the car. Do you really think I need 3/16th wall tubing? The main frame rails aren't even that thick! I was thinking of 1/2 inch square tube, either 1/16th or 1/8th wall, whichever Home Depot has lying around. The "lift point" for the jackstand will probably be a plate of 1/8th inch flat stock I have in the basement. I wonder though; I could probably buy 3/16th inch angle iron, and maybe that would be as strong as a steel tube?

I definately won't be doing a full bead; I think the metal's too thin. I'll be tacking it at each end until I'm sure of the panel alignment, and then doing many many many tacks to fill it all up. Since these welds will be in places that nobody will ever seen, I really don't have to grind them down- and might not. It depends on my energy level! I think I might flange the whole rear panel inside the hatch well, and the whole floor panel (under the rear seat), to give myself some adjustment room.

Now for the rust! See the spot I circled? Well extend that spot all the way to the left and down- and that's the rust. I remember somewhere that somebody on thirdgen.org said that GM made these cars to rust out- so true. There's a cavity in there that seems like it filled with water- either from the outside in- or the inside out! Either way, water collected in there and slowly turned into rust. The whole inner section there (where I circled the rust spot) is just spot welds; so water/rust could eventually work its way thru the gaps in the spot welds and rust out everything! I looked on my car, and I have rust in this same spot.

The plan? Well, I started it a few weeks ago. I used my nifty spot weld drill ( http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...emType=PRODUCT ) to separate that joined panel - or, more accurately, what was left of it. Most of it is just one panel left, with the rest disentegrated. The screwdriver peeled most of it away! Anyway, once I slice those pieces out, I'm going to re-build them with 1/16th inch steel sheeting. I was going to try my hand at panel beating, but it'll take forever. So this is going to be cut down into flat sections that I can weld together to make one piece. I'll then weld the new sections in- with one difference. The section that GM spot welded together will get a FULL weld! No more spot welds. This will seal off any future water sneaking in between spot welds.

I'll try to get some pics up, and I should really move this into the bodywork forum. But, I plan to start work again on this weekend. I used the plasma cutter on one "flat" section (think of your spare tire, now think of the side that faces the front of the car- thats the rusted section I cut out), and it worked pretty well.

Oh that seam sealer GM has in there is a pain! I think it might be some kind of caulk... I had to use a hammer and chisel. TIP: Anywhere you see that caulk cracked (if you guys ever take your rear panels off), there's a 99.999 % chance that there's rust under there. There was some stuff that I think was "true" seam sealer, it felt tar-like and peeled right off, so I'm not sure what the hard stuff is- it's gotta be caulk- anyone know if I'm right?

I'm glad I'm doing all this now. The original plan was to just ignore any little rust spots and put the piece on the car. Could you imagine! I'd be doing this job AGAIN in another few years if I didn't start poking at it with a screwdriver.

 

Mini update... I removed all the body caulk and seam sealer that was in the way of the rusted panels. Inside the car, near the folding seatback catch at the window, is a brace that goes between the hatch floor and the inner wheel well. I removed it with my spot weld drill so I could get to the back of the rusty panel. I drilled from the "inside" of the car towards the outside. This way, when I put new steel in, I can just put the original bracket up there- and wherever there's a hole in the bracket, I'll do a plug weld to connect the bracket to the new steel. This will give me with the almost-exact spots where GM originally welded this bracket on.

Then, I used some paper to make templates of the "missing" steel that the screwdriver removed. I taped 'em all together and had a template; I traced it onto thin "macy's gift box" cardboard and cut it out. Next I used the plasma cutter to remove the inner wheel well section from the car.

Now I've got half of the panel on cardboard, and half of the panel in rust-eaten steel. Next I'll be working with this section on the workbench, and trying to fabricate a single piece. I've gotta pick up aviation snips so I can cut little pieces of metal easily. And one day I'll have pictures up! (ROFL)

 

lol, well keep going tom, your doing something no one else would bother doing

 

Haha, I can't argue that one!

Now I'm thinking of making a wood buck and maybe trying to beat this panel out of a flat sheet of steel. It might work, it might not, and it might even look like crap! (Wood buck = shape a piece of wood to what you want it to look like, then hold the metal over the wood, and beat the metal with a hammer until it takes on the shape of the wood. See http://rodandcustommagazine.com/tech...135_0405_hood/ for some pics) Either way, it'd be interesting.

 

An even better idea would be to make a fiberglass mold of the part you want, then you can use that to pound the metal against (you have to make the pattern nice and strong though).

 

Yo Tom!!! You finished yet? I admire your courage! How 'bout an update?

 

eh, ide do that if i knew how to

 

Oh man, I don't even want to lift the tarp up to see how the 1/4 panel's doing... I could just imagine it rusted away completely by now..

 

Well, Hows this project coming along?

 

^ Talk about a blast from the past.....

 

2 years...I think he is finished

 

Actually readint the thread, I don't think it did get finished.

There was almost a year between Tomp's first and last post, and the panel was sitting under a tarp.