Hey guys, I'm running out of ideas here, and I might just end up paying the big bucks to have a shop figure it out for me... man pinging makes me cringe!

Anyways, first I thought I solved my pinging problem by replacing the connector on the knock sensor (was broken off from the shop rebuilding my motor)... This helped out a lot, but didn't solve the problem.

Next I replace all the plugs with the Delcos just to make sure... nothing...

I know it's not a coolant issue because I now have a new water pump and I even installed a fan switch to keep it always on (just to help reduce pinging--but it really doesn't help much)

Last week I installed a new distributor cap, along with a new rotor, (there were obvious signs up arching in the cap, and the rotor was in extremely bad condition---after all this, I still noticed zero performance gain, as well as I still had the same exact pinging problem...

Today I replaced all my sparkplug wires, making sure to swap over the passenger-side heatshields... BUT I ran into a snag when I replaced the wire going from the distributor cap to the ignition coil... When I pulled it off, a bunch of white powder (I'm assuming aluminum oxide) spilled out all over the place... I am not sure if this was caused due to someone not putting in that sylicon stuff or what, or if it was arching right there..

I figured that I should replace the coil, but I didn't have the right open-ended wrenches to grasp the nut on the other side of the clamps... so that's the next step for me...

The strangest thing of all, is I took a wire brush to the male terminal on the coil, and then attached the brand new wire from there to the distributor cap... AND NOW ITS PINGING WORSE THAN BEFORE!!!

I can't explain it, it's boggling my mind!

After my car warms up, I literally cannot exceed 2,000 rpm in 1st gear, and I have to let off the gas a tad bit once it goes into second, otherwise I get a NON-STOP pinging! I almost teared up from it!

The more time and money I put into this pinging problem, the more it friggin' pings!!

Can a vacuum leak really cause all this? Because I have replaced many of the hoses that were leaky, but there are still a few I haven't found yet. --- Would there be other symptoms of extreme vacuum leak if this were the problem??

I am fairly certain my car has, and still is dropping plenty of sparks, because it feels really week, and I have an almost constant gasoline smell...

Tomorrow I plan on replacing the coil, but I don't see how that could cause pinging... I thought it either worked, or it didn't?

I have replaced all these in the last two years...
Throttle-Position Sensor
Oxygen Sensors
EGR

Any help would be greatly appreciated... as I am very poor right now and I know I won't walk away without paying $200+ to fix this pinging problem....

Thanks,

Steven

 

Your timing is off. Get ahold of a timing light, and disconnect the EST wire.

The EST wire should be on the Pass side of the firewall - it's a black/tan wire, IIRC. Disconnect it.
Crank up the car.
Set your timing to 10º BTDC.
Shut off car.
Reconnect EST connector.

I believe you'll find the distributor was set with too much timing, causing your pinging.

 

oops I forgot to mention that this was the very first thing I checked (before replacing anything)... and it was almost dead-on 10 degrees...

If I remove the EST connector my car will not ping, (or accelerate etiher--until about 2500 rpm)

So I'm fairly certain it's the computer telling my car to advance its timing considerably, for whatever reason...

It's strange though, I am not getting any codes, and my friend has a scantool and we were reading all the sensors and they checked out good, but maybe I should have had it hooked up while driving... his lets you record results from driving--I believe

Do you think its a coincidence that right after I replace all the wires AND clean that horribly-oxidized connection at the ignition coil, that all-the-sudden it starts pinging 3 times worse? Is it possible that the coil is the problem, because I really didn't think the coil had anything to do with timing, unless it was just sending a weak spark?

I wonder if there is another component that can degrade over time that is causing this? Can this be the actual distributor maybe? I have replace the cap and rotor, but not the actual unit itself, it could be fairly old for all I know... -- if the dist was going bad, would the timing *slowly* get worse, or would it just instantly start acting up?

--also I took apart the computer to look for bad connections and signs of damage, and I couldn't find any--because I've had cars were the computer craps out and you can usually visually tell... but probably not always

Thanks,
Steven

 

I would say your balance ring has slipped and is not reading accurately. Your timing is not correct.

 

is there a way to use the computer scan tool to see what the REAL timing is?

All I found (having no prior experience) was the amount of retardation due to the knock sensor.... I'm not sure how far that can retard anyhow...

Also, if the timing truly is... off... why would my replacing mostly every ignition component actually worsen the situation?? (It got much worse after changing the wires, not the cap, so I know it wasn't because I accidentally rotated the dist...)

 

gotta get that timing fixed

 

Better spark= more combustion power=more knock if advanced too much.

It the spark was weak, the cylinders weren't producing as much power so the knock was lower in intensity.

Back the timing off slightly and drive it again. (try 2* back, then test it, then 2* more then test it again- get a feel for what the motor is doing regardless of what the timing mark may say.)

 

I may just do that, retard the timing until it feels right... but how much performance loss happens when you retard it a few degrees??

Also, I JUST got done installing the new coil... and its tad bit better... I'd say it feels 30% better than yesterday... But it's just now back to the same amount of pinging I had before I replaced anything... (including finding out my knock sensor was unplugged)...

It's mostly pinging NOT during hard acceleration... A good example is say you take off from a light, and you let off the gas right before 2500 rpm, so it shifts nice and easy into second... then let the gas off a bit, and then give it as much gas as you can without the car downshifting into first... this is the only time it pings now....

I wonder... is that situation I described the most prone to pinging? If not what is the most common time for an engine to ping? I know if I floor it, it almost never pings...

And lastly, which way do I turn the distributor to retard the timing? Clock or counter? And roughly how many (0-360) degrees should I rotate it to retard it about 2 degrees? -- I've never done this before, much less without a timing light...which for some reason shows my timing perfect...

 

basically do it by feel, rotate the distributor a bit and see how it runs, if its good then leave if not try a bit more until it runs great

 

I would really bring your motor to #1 TDC (#1 cylinder is the front passanger side) and VERIFY your balancer - if it HAS slipped, you WILL eventually cause damage to your main bearings!

 

What's the easiest way to tell if I have the #1 at tdc? The only way I've done this before is on an older motor and we had the top-end pulled, and just using a hefty screwdriver on the bottom of the flywheel (I forget the name of the huge gear...oh well)... but I don't even know if I can get to that on my car..

can you tell by taking out the spark plug or something else?

And assuming I find tdc of #1, what would I be looking for to make sure the balancer is correct?


Thanks,
Steven

 

If #1 is @ TDC< the harmonic balancer should read 0º

 

The best and easiest to see where you are pointing when you think your at TDC is to take an cap and cut off the top center, but leave the terminals. Then just put it on and see where the rotor lines up when your on TDC...

 

I think I understand what you are saying...

hrm, so obviously the timing is off, and either the computer knows about it, and cannot deal with it... or the computer is bad and is sending bad pulses to my brand new coil?

I would assume the ECM DIRECTLY sends the pulses to the coil? ... or does it go through another device to produce pulses at the correct timing?

It's either:
-Balancer
-Distributor
-Computer
-Enormously-Large Vacuum Leak

What else could it be?

Also, I am at work right now, but later tonight I'm gonna try retarding the timing just a bit, just to get by until I can figure out all this TDC stuff (or I just take it in to get it fixed)... This may sound a bit silly, but you can turn the distributor base WHILE the car is running, right? or is that a bad idea?

Thanks,
Steven

 

The pickup coil pulses the ICM. The ICM sends a signal to the ignition coil and the ECM. The ECM has some control over the ignition coil's actual time of pulse.

 

Does this make sense...? My car still runs sorta rough at idle, even with all the new ignition components... if I put it in neutral, it relieves some of the vibration, but not all... it still feels like I have old and dirty plugs... Is this a symptom of agressive timing, or a sign of a sloppy distributor or something else?

 

Until you absolutely verify the balancer is good, you're pissing in the wind man. Do that first.

 

Hopefully the wind is blowing the other direction... right?



anyways, I tried retarding the timing a little bit and it didn't seem to help much... so I caved in and took it in to a local trusted shop...

The guy thinks it might be the computer, and said that the chances of the balancer being off is not that great... but I dunno...

bah this may sound dumb, but is the balancer the same thing as the timing mark? if so- someone told me that that cannot slip... that it was hammered into some grooves... but I really don't know...

 

The timing mark is cast into the front cover. The groove on the balancer is the other half of the equation (lining the mark up with the right # on the cover)

The balancer slips when the rubber ring deteriorates and the outer ring moves. The inner ring is locked into a groove on the crankshaft.

 

this rubber ring... would it be part of a rebuilt longblock? Because this block is only 2 years old...

 

I can't say if a harmonic balancer comes on a longblock or not

 

well I guess I'll call the mechanic and tell him that it may be the balancer... I'm ashamed of myself for caving into paying for car work... sigh

 

Just pull your spark plugs out

Now put an 18mm socket + breaker bar on the bolt in the middle of the harmonic balancer

Now spin it over slowly - now, if the breaker bar moves, and the motor doesn't spin, stop right there!

Should spin fine, though, with the plugs out.

Spin it over until you get #1 to TDC, and check your balancer vs the timing mark.

 

can I still spin it with only the one plug removed, or is it too hard to sping the motor?

 

WOW... The shop just called, said that the scan tool is reading an electronic spark problem... they said its almost 100% the ECM... and that I could be looking at like 300 bucks!! are these things that friggin expensive??? good *** that's some crap.... I wonder if I go and find my old speedchip for this car if it will change the fuel mappings and stop the pinging??

I will have to pull some strings and find some cheap parts from a friend... man...

 

Hell no they aren't - $75 @ Autozone, in stock. Go ask them for one!

 

BTW, I would HIGHLY doubt the ECM is screwing up the spark. You can replace the ECU yourself (takes all of 10 minutes to swap ) And when that's NOT the problem, you'll know never to take your car back to that guy!

 

yeah I called around and I can get one from a salvage yard for $50... but I wonder if I should just get it from autozone, and if I didn't need it... I can take it back?? heh

The guy was arguing with me about the timing on the car... I was asking him... "theoretically"... if the problem was not the computer... could it be the distributor could be set at the wrong position?

Man this guy would not change his answer, kept telling me that I didn't seem to understand how my car worked... and how the computer completely controlled the timing... I then was trying to get him to explain a tad bit further... becuase it was amusing.... but oh well...

-- at least the garage didn't charge me anything-- I think all they did was hook up the scanner and it was reporting "bad spark" or something... this guy didn't make much sense...


Guess I'll go swap in another computer just for grins....

Can someone tell me if I can use a computer from any year firebird/camaro as long as it was the right sized engine and had a/c etc??

 

man this is so weird... the pinging is MUCH LESS NOW--- as in, like it will ping once then the knock sensor stops it... during my small 10 minute drive it seems almost fixed!!--but I can't say for sure until I drive it this weekend as my delivery vehicle(lots of idling and the engine is hot for 4 hours... really good test)

I went ahead and bought the autozone $72... it did not come with the EEPROM chip... so I re-used that one piece.

At first the car ran like complete crap--dying at every stop light... worse than normal for a Battery-Unplugging.... I figured... well maybe the EEPROM and computer need to sync up or whatever it needs to re-learn everything... so after a little while that's getting better now... (10 minutes of driving)

but I have a REALLY weird problem now!!!
My speedometer has a damn life of its own!! I will post a link of it (a video)... it was just sitting at zero the whole time... then it was going as fast as it possibly could to 125ish... hitting the pole... (I could friggin hear it hitting it!!) ouch I thought it was gonna break...

Slowly, however, the speed started to every-once-in-a-while actually read right!!! this is amazing because my speed has ALWAYS read 15% lower than I'm going (resulting in 2 very annoying speeding tickets--when I first got the bird)

Towards the end of my ride the speedometer stop flaking out as much and calmed down, and was reading accurately for the most part...

What I need to know is... did this mean I had the wrong computer for the longest time? I mean was it meant for a... uh 150mph speedo or something I don't know about?? How can this be fixed now?

Why was the break-in time so long and harsh for this new computer?

 

and I was hoping this would fix the fact that my AC didn't turn on my electric fan... but it didn't I guess that was truly a fusable link somewhere

 

AC to electric fan = relay. Does the relay 'click' when you turn on the A/C?

The computer I can't explain. Well, the 'crappy running' is the computer relearning your car. The pinging? Try running some 93 octane in it, see if that helps...

 

bah this is weird... now my speedometer has stopped jumping around... except every once in a while.... but it turns out it's still off by 15%... I was crushed...

but it's weird... the pinging is almost completely gone... but it still does it which pisses me off... its just that once it starts it stops instantly... doesn't continually ping anymore....

I guess I'll eventually take it back in and have them figure out what's wrong... but for now, one single tiny spoon-to-a-teacup type ping every once in a while isn't enough for me to take it back in...

I wished I knew it was the computer the whole time, I wouldn't have replaced all these things, but I bet they needed it anyways...

Also I just want to make sure... the car should pretty much NEVER ping, right? it shouldn't be doing that one little ping during accleration right? If anything I'll replace the knock sensor next...

 

and also, I have no idea where the ac -> electric fan relay is... or if it's an actual relay, or simply a fusable link from the computer/hvac/something that splices into the regular fan relay.... that's how I would do it if I engineered the system...