After thoroughly reading the threads on the new Pacesetter headers for the V6, I still have a question. I have a 1990 Pontiac Firebird with the 3.1 V6. I want to know if these headers will fit all my emissions hardware. It never seemed to be cleared up. I purchased these headers already and have them sitting in my garage and I'm hoping I won't run into a problem installing them.

I even sent an email to Fred Gerle:

"Mr. Gerle,
I've recently purchased a set of V6 Camaro/firebird part no. 701206. I have a 1990 Firebird with the 3.1L V6 engine. I know the headers will bolt up to the heads, but I was wondering whether they will be compatible with all the emissions hardware? If you could get back to me when you have some time, that would be greatly appreciated. I understand many people have been sending you emails with similar questions because I read the Thirdgen.org forums so I understand if this is getting repetitive. But after reading through the whole forum, I still am not sure if these headers will fit my car so I can pass inspection. I hope they will as I know Pacesetter makes great products, otherwise I will find myself reselling them on Ebay.
Thank you for your time and patience,
Adam

His Reply:
You're better off asking someone on the forum. My understanding is that there was a switch to "electric" EGR some time during the 1990 model year. That's why we list to 1990 with the 2.8L only, until we are able to get e vehicle in here.
fg"

So thats what I am doing.
Thanks for looking at this guys and I hope this question hasnt been answered and I'm not just stupid.
-Adam

 

Should work, the EGR bolts up in the exact same fashion. As an example, the later 3.4's use the same EGR as the 3.1's did. It will work unless you have an air reactor setup (those funny tubesgoing into the manifolds).

 

I see you only have one post, and I am assuming this is it, so welcome to the boards! Nice lookin' car you've got there!

Yeah, it is confusing.
As far as I know, there are not any connections for A.I.R. (aka smog). So if you have an AIR pump and connections on the existing manifolds, the AIR line(s) will not connect to these headers. My 1989 Camaro RS 2.8L w/ 5-speed has an AIR pump, and connects to the driver's side manifold at the pipe for each individual exhaust port. Looking at my parts catalog, the 3.1L engines with AIR have one big connection on the passenger side manifold at the joint of the three pipes from the ports. If these headers were to have AIR connections (which they don't), they would have the fittings on the driver's side header since they are "officially" for 2.8L engines up to '89. I suppose they could include AIR support, both for 2.8L and 3.1L, and just block off the fittings from the factory with plugs. If you don't want AIR, ya leave the plugs in. If you have a 2.8L and want AIR, you remove the plugs in the driver's side header. If you have a 3.1L and want AIR, you remove the single plug in the passenger side header. These headers aren't really 100% emissions legal for AIR cars since the headers don't have AIR fittings...right?

As for EGR...
The headers do have the EGR connection for the 2.8L-style vaccum-operated EGR setup. I don't think the fitting will work with the 3.1L EGR. Looking at the illustration in my parts catalog, the 2.8L manifold-to-EGR adaptor goes straight up (well, angled toward the front of the car) from the manifold to the bottom of the EGR. The flat edge of the adaptor-to-manifold flange is somewhat perpendicular to the adaptor's pipe (when mounted to the manifold, the adapter flange would be parallel to the ground). The 3.1L adaptor, as illustrated, has a different adapter. The flange is angled...
Sorry I can't describe it better, and I don't have a scanner.
ACK! I am looking in the engine section now (above, I was looking at emissions) so that I could look at the 2.8L vs. 3.1L manifolds...in these illustrations, the flange of the 3.1L adapter looks similar to the 2.8L...although the bolt holes don't quite look the same...
Uhg, it's something that someone would have to try or get some pictures of a 2.8L vs. a 3.1L setup...these illustrations are not very exact, not really meant for this kind of thing I guess.

Hope that helps!

So, taking my AIR fittings idea from above, and running with it: To support EGR on the 3.1L engines, if the connection is different, they could either re-design the EGR connection on the headers and make a 3.1L version, or redesign it and include two adapters with the headers: one that would fit the EGR from the 2.8L, and the other the EGR from the 3.1L. With this change, and fittings for 2.8L and 3.1L AIR as mentioned above, the headers could be 100% street legal for 3.1L and 2.8L engines. I wonder if it is cheaper to make one model of headers that have the different fittings and two EGR adapters to support the two engines, or if it is easier to make two different models (since the differences would be minor)...

Anyhow, sorry I got carried away.
Good night all!

 

Yes it was my first post, so thank you, Im glad to be here! I've been reading this forum so long I figured its about time to speak up.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I am going to check my car today to see what my AIR setup is like since I have no clue. Assuming that they are setup correctly to be compatible with the headers, the next biggest thing is the EGR. I looked at the stock opening for my EGR and then the opening in the headers, and it is different. The bolts line up, but nothing else does. So here's what I'm thinking. Can a really good exhaust shop cut off the stock EGR opening on my manifold, cut off the opening on the header, and weld the stock opening TO the header? This would work right?

Otherwise I guess i have to sell these headers, or find someone who will inspect my car no matter what the emissions are..haha.

I am going to take pictures of everything and post them up here later today for everyone to see. Hopefully they will help you Linuxguy (dont know your name ) with your advice.

Thanks again!
Adam

 

Welcome to the boards.

As previously said, the 2.8 style has air ports on both sides.
The 3.1 has one large port on pass side, right next to the egr, and a bug huge pump under the alternator.

The mounting for the EGR is the same, no mater what, it will work as is. No needing to cut n weld anything.

I did a write up on my install since I was the first to own a set.

:delete link:

 

Dale:
OK, well, I have not seen a 3.1L EGR setup, so I wasn't able to say for sure whether or not it would work. I was just doing the best I could by what I saw in the illustrated parts catalog.

Just to clarify, I just went outside and double-checked:
The 2.8L AIR setup only connects to the driver's side manifold.


AdmAnt13:
It says in your e-mail to Fred in your first message that you bought a set of these headers. I was thinking, for some reason, that you hadn't yet. Sorry! Just to be clear, have you tried to fit the EGR to the headers without success? You said the bolts line up, but nothing else. What do you mean? Looking forward to the pictures, I suppose they will help quite a bit as well.

-Jason

 

Became too busy to take the pictures, so I will tomorrow. What I meant about the EGR valve is that the opening seems to be shaped differently than the header opening. (weird grooves and whatnot) A picture will help alot, but its dark and very cold out right now, so tomorrow after school I will take them and post them promptly.

While we wait for that, I have one more question. I have a 80 Series flowmaster on my car, but due to using exhaust clamps instead of welding it, I have a leak on the driver side outlet. I plan on replacing the muffler with another 80 series because I love the tone (even though not everyone agrees to that e.g. people loyal to dynomax) I need to replace the intermediate pipe as well because the clamp bent it pretty badly. I am hesistant to get the 3" catback american thunder system from them because I think it will make the sound more raspy than it already is. I'm looking for a 2.5" intermediate pipe to buy, but can't seem to find it anywhere. No one offers it seperately. Should I try my local auto parts store like R&S Strauss or Pepboys?
If the 3" catback wont really make much of a difference in sound then I'll do that. Oh btw, take into account I plan on having these headers on as well with my highflow cat.

Look back tomorrow afternoon for pictures, and thanks again for all your help!
-Adam

 

The 47638 intermediate pipe that comes with the Dynomax 17493 cat-back that is so popular with us V6 guys, is $75.99 from Summit Racing. Summit part number WLK-47638 - "Intermediate Pipe 2.5" 83-92 Camaro/Firebird W/2.8, 3.1, 5.0(Exc. HO)"

 

the 3" I-pipe won't effect sound too much but it will effect performance. i am running 3" on my car but that's with extensive mods to the engine and some people still think its too big, i don't. anyways, if you try to run something that big on one of these motors, nearly stock, you will have next to no torque.

 

I've seen some that do. Maybe it changes mid 2.8 years?? Or maybe auto/manual. I've only seen 2 2.8 maros in my life, so I am not best judgement on that.

I agree 3" would be to much. Also, my dynomax sounded great with stock manifolds, now that I have headers installed, I dont like the sound, to raspy. However, that 600 worth of exhaust(headers, catback, dump) is staying on the car tell its rotted to all be hell, or car is totalled.

 

Dale:
Really? Huh. That would be a tight fit on the passenger side manifold...probably make it that much more difficult to change the plugs too!

 

here are the pictures:
Okay so this is the stock EGR opening and the opening in the manifold:

This is the opening on the headers, totally different as you can see. And I was wrong, the bolts do NOT line up at all:

That accordian like pipe goes from the manifold EGR opening to the throttle body (something the headers don't have an opening for):

Down there is a one of those AIR things I'm guessing (something ELSE the headers dont have an opening for):


The driver side has nothing.
So after this, I'm wondering if these things will fit at all (legally). Appreciate all the help you can give me. Thanks!

 

in the last pic, you can see one of the two nuts that you need to pull out, below that metal tube. the piece you had in your hand is the EGR valve but it doesn't have the 'adaptor' on it in your pic, that's the piece that you need to pull off, bolt your egr back to it, and bolt them on the headers together. everything will bolt up right then, and yes, its all legal.

edit: i just looked again, you can see both of the nuts you have to pull off.

 

ohhh, i understand. What about the AIR tube (im guessin) going into the manifold? Is that part of the adaptor as well?

 

no, that's seperate. um....hmmm.... i don't know how it'd hook up though, there isn't a port on the headers, is there? you can run fine without it but i don't know how your emissions laws are.

 

No there isnt. Im in Jersey so the emissions laws are nice and strict
Maybe a good shop can drill out a hole for it?

 

Honestly, I can't see that adding holes for the air system will be that much work. I can't remember exactly what the connection looks like, but you might need to find a special bung for it. Then you just need to drill holes in the headers and weld the bungs on.

 

Trace ware your AIR pipe goes to. I can't realy tell in the pic.

I have a 1992 Camaro 3.1L and my AIR pipe goes to the cat. No need for holes in the manifold.

If it goes to the manifold the simple fix would be to go get the AIR pipe off a Camaro or Firebird that has it going to the cat and hook it up that way. The smog **** wont be able able to tell the difference and it will still do it's job.

 

Yeah, that's what I was about to say too...a shop could weld a nut/bung to the header at the right spot and angle to connect to the AIR pipe.

There were some that had AIR systems that ran to the cat instead of the manifold? Cool. I would think that would work. No modification for the headers needed, just a different AIR setup.

AM91Camaro_RS: Well, now that I know that the 3.1L and 2.8L EGR manifold "adapter" bolts up the same, everyone can disregard my EGR ramblings above!
And sorry if I disputed you guys (Dale and FBodTek). Just tryin' to help out as best I can.

Good night all!

 

Yeah, the replacement cats have a connection for the air system, but it is capped off. Not sure if we could just re-route the air to the cat.

 

Yeah, my AIR goes directly to the manifold. I am going to look for an AIR setup that goes to the cat. Thats a great idea. Guess I'll try ebay or whatnot.

 

You might also try posting a wanted ad in the classifieds here at ThirdGen.org now and then.

 

I believe all the air systems are very similar and you just have to reroute the air pump output to the capped-off connector on the cat.

 

Right, but I would need to get the new setup to extend that AIR tube all the way down to the cat. I've looked and so far I have found only the one that connects tot he manifold. I'm sure I'll find it.

Want to say thanks to everyone who has been helping me!

 

All you would need, in my opinion, is an aftermarket cat with a capped-off tube (which you should probably have since most cats by now should have been replaced) and a tube to connect the air output to the cat. I don't think there would be a "set up".

 

The only difference in set ups is length of the pipe and ware it plugs into. The valve is same.

 

I know, but I can't do it myself. Thats why i want to find the stock set of tubing that came with some of our cars and just use that, or else I would have to have a shop cut and bend tubing to connect to the cat.

 

Isn't it fun living in NJ? Damn emissions BS. Yeah, an exhaust shop should be able to weld those AIR ports right up for you. In fact; I'd bet ya it'd be cheaper if you found the correct fittings and drilled the holes in the pipes yourself. Then you're just bringing the guy the pipes, the fittings, and the AIR tubes, and asking him to weld it. He won't have to do ANY prep- so that'll help everyone- it's fast for him to do, so you'll get it back quick, and he wont' charge you much.

Now what's the deal with the air pipe? It doesn't run one port to each cylinder? The AIR systems I've seen had a little AIR manifold on each side of the motor; looked like a fork. One little silver AIR pipe would go to each cylinder at the manifold. The 3.1's aren't like that? Are any of the 2.8 MPFI's like that?

This AIR design seems much more simple.

And I still think AIR is pointless anyway... I'm surprised the EPA fell for it. "Hey lets force fresh air into the exhaust so it dilutes the emissions!" They say the AIR system helps heat up the cat but i still think it's BS- and I'm glad the factory didn't give me an AIR setup on my '86.

 

hey dale, ive got a question for you. i just bolted my headers up today and i cant put the bracket on the back of the alternator back on. did you have this and will it be a problem? the things still got two bolts holding it on and its sturdy. its that 13mm on the back at the top of the case.

 

My '86 2.8 has AIR only on the driver's side, but it still has one forked piped to each exhaust port on that side.

 

Tom,

The whole Cat. idea is BS. It only works aprox. 14% of the time. This is what happens when you let law makers and special intrest loby groups make laws on equipment they no nothing about. Same concept be hind the whole MTBE screw up (thank you Clinton!). Running MTBE is worse for the enviroment then if you run with out it.

 

while we are on the topic of these headers and im assuming a good portion of you who responded actually have the headers I have one question: did they come with a y-pipe when u ordered them? I see posts with people showing the y-pipe with them, but summit says "no" in the item description for the painted ones.

Dave

 

yes they do come w/ a y-pipe. thats where i got mine from

 

Nope, not on the 3.1L engines. You can see the AIR pipe and it's connection to the passenger side manifold in AdmAnt13's last picture.

My '89 2.8L has what you describe, one small pipe going to each cylinder on the manifold, stemming from a main pipe. However, my car only has AIR on the driver's side.