Been having a problem with my bird lately, it will startup fine when its cold but sometimes when i go somewhere and its at operating temp, it wont start. It wont even crank its like the battery is dead but i have replaced the battery and the alt. is pretty new.

 

Might be the starter....you gotta see if you get current to the starter when you crank

 

oh yeah i forgot to mention the starter is a few months old as well.

 

Is it a rebuilt starter? I know lots of people who get rebuitl starters and have quite a few problems with them even though they replaced it. I don't think rebuilt starters are that good...same goes for alternators usually (experience!).

 

I have the same problem, I think it has something to do with the engine being overtemp after you shut off the car. Because the fan is no longer running once you shut it off (unless yours runs even when car is off) the engine temp rising because of the sitting coolant and takes a while to cool down.

I have learned that if i plan on getting out of and in to my car quickly that I A) leave the car running or b) sit with the fan on for a bit until the fan shuts off again and then turn off the engine, this way the temp is cooler when i get back in.

Might be a computer issue where the computer does not allow a start up when engine is too hot, for fear that it will cause damage to the engine since its sitting idle at an above normal temp.

THe only thing I can think of and my starter is fine, car has no other issues either. Makes sense to me atleast....

Dave

 

My car is doing the same thing shuts off when too hot. There has to be a better solution than to leave it running. Then my question is how long before it cools down and it restarts.

Someone please help.

 

i usually only leave it running until the fan brings the temp down and then shut it off, that way the temp is lower and takes less time to reach the point where it starts. If it happens again try starting it every couple of minutes and record the approximate temperature it is at when it is able to start again. Let us all know, i am going to do the same thing....you should be able to use that as a basis for how long you may have to wait.

Most people probably dont notice it because they are away from the car long enough to let it cool down. Mine always happens at dairy queen when i run up to get a blizzard and then go back to the car a few minutes later.

Unless we have some tech guy explain the issue, if there is one, i would not suggest trying to bypass it or anything. Trying to start an engine that is overheated could cause damage as parts have expanded and sudden bursts of energy, like pistons moving, would not be good.

 

wire(s) to starter
I see your 91/92, vats? (mine acted up other day)
manual?? Clutch start switch (just had to replace mine).
selnoid on starter already out.
ignition module in distrib getting weak
coil getting weak

 

I will do that log how long it takes before it is able to restart. This eveing I will also post this issue in the National Firebird Association Members only section, they have a few techs' there that might have an answer.

 

also check:
bad/dirty/loose ground conection
bad/dirty/loose positive battery cable
ignition switch
fusible link and bulkhead harness connector
battery

Since it is only happening when hot I would look at the wires and fusible link to the starter for damage, being loose, or dirty conections. Then the starter, make sure all the bolts are tight and the mounting surface is clean since it grounds through the starter case.

nope, the ecm doesn't shut off the starter circuit, it should still crank.

edit:the 3.1 in my van used to do this. I'd have my son hold the key in start and tap on the starter solenoid with a 2' breaker bar (yeah, I carried it around with me) and it would start cranking. At work I have seen new (right out of the box from the manufactuerer) starters be bad also.

 

UPDATE:

just got the car back from the shop after replacing the Fuel pump and filter. Feels a little better, gas flow is good ; I have not had a chance to run it hard on the Highway to see how she does, I will give her a run this weekend. I am going to change the starter solenoid and if that does not solve the issue I will check the ICM.

It seems as though everyone on this site thinks it's the ICM so I will change both the starter solenoid and the ICM.

I bought the car back in September and have replaced the following:

Complete Tom's Tune-Up (Wires, Plugs, Cap, etc..)
Tranny and coolant flush.
Exhuast system to include the Cat Converter and Oxygen Sensor.
Front Suspension.
New belts, pulley.

 

I think i might know what your guys problem is. My voc auto teacher had that same problem it wouldent even crank after it got hot and would have to wait for it to cool down. he found out that it was not the starters fault but the flywheel. it would get hot and start to expand and when you hit the the starter it would bind up because the fly wheel is to close to the starter gear. I think he used shims or something else to fix it.

im not sure if this is it but just something to cheak out.

 

i just put in a rebuit starter a month ago and it works great.

 

I thought I had this problem licked last year when I put in a new battery with more cranking power. That seemed to help, but now it's doing the same thing:

Shut it off hot, it'll usually start again if you start it RIGHT AWAY.

Let it sit more than a few minutes after shutting it off, and NOTHING. Not even a "click."

Let it cool off (for up to an HOUR) and it starts right up again.

I have read about problems with "heat sink" to the starter especially on the 350 V8. This means that heat migrates to the starter and solenoid after shutting off the hot engine, and the theory is that the solenoid gets so hot it won't kick in.

I have heard of re-locating the solenoid or putting a "heat shield" between the starter and the exhaust pipe, which passes right next to the starter. The re-locating seems to make some sense, but the heat shield doesn't seem likely to do much good when it's needed most--after shutoff when the heat from the engine migrates or "sinks" into the starter assembly.

I have a suspicion that a fresh solenoid would improve things, but I'd like to hear other suggestions that have worked, short of replacing the starter/solenoid.

(BTW, here's something that might help some of you. A Chevy tech told me that a very common problem with a no-crank condition is a failure of the "chip" in the ignition key, or the contacts inside the switch. These keys can be checked for proper operation if you take them to a dealer. Heat shouldn't be a factor with this problem. It's easy enough to tell if the key is working properly if you have a "Security" light on the dash. If it doesn't light up when you turn the key to the "on" position, you've likely got problems with the key or the switch.)

 

It's the wiring.
These engines do not truly generate that much heat due to their size and available air space under the engine bay.
Check the locations of majority of the people making this complaint. You are in snow belt area or extreme wetness area.
Your main battery cables have aged internally. You cannot see this damage.
MAY be able to feel it.
New cables for battery, and real good ones, like GM issued. Freshly sanded cleaned contact points.
The "instant" engine bay heat, compounds the weak connection issue, to point of way less current passing thru, for restarts.
For example.
My 1974 Corvette has the original factory starter, from Aug of 1973 build date. I run headers on this car.
For GM to solve their weak fiberglass bodied car ground issues, GM installed another battery cable at engine block to frame, for better grounds. After nearly 28 years, I replaced the solenoid. I rebuilt the starter. Point being, these starters can run fine, if they have constant good power source. A little V6 engine is not the high compression larger engine sized brute, to start.
New fresh battery cables and strong clean tight contact points will solve this problem.
Even my 1985 Firebird and 1985 Blazer is running the original starter motor.

 

HERE IS THE UPDATE:

WIRING SEEMS TO BE THE ISSUE

Last Night; I took it for a test run while going to pick up a new ICM, well let me tell you it was not the ICM causing the shut down. It shut down again and I was stuck on the road until late

I was really ready to junk the car, but the body is great and when it does run it is a real Stallion on the road, so I am

I did notice the wiring for the coil was a little stripped. ( that could be the cause(don't think so yet).

Tonight I will go and get a battery with somewhere between 810 - 925 cold crancking amps.

This weekend I will install a new starter.

If that does not change this I will go back to the wiring connected to the coil next to the ICM.

 

$30 coil is the answer.
Test clip it into the wiring & at same time "band-aid" that one connection.
Go for a drive & see what happens. Bet it won't stall. No need to remove the current coil for this test drive.
Next go get new battery cables before ya seek new starter.
Install new battery cables on clean surfaces.
Enjoy your car.

 

wait...there are two cars here now, right? Tamay and Javelin right?

I think KED hit it on the nose about the coil for Tamay seeing that this one shuts off. So we assume it cranks but doesn't start right? For me, the best way to test ICM is crank and hit the gas. If engine runs you got a bad ICM. If it doesn't......keep lookin!

I think Javelin might be the starter, VATS, ignition switch, or something like that seeing that there is no crank at all.

Just my .02

 

Read Karl's posts again. It could still be wiring causing it not to crank at all.

Bad battery cables and/or dirty connections.

 

ON my 1974 Corvette, I once used an aftermarket I bought at swap meet coil.
It was for a racing Chrysler hemi set up!
I was told by Accel that
Change to correct coil...
Racing coils give out very high out put for the short duration and after a while quit working.
Because the windings get too hot for being to (internally) close to give out the justified high output, but only for the short (1/4 mile) duration.
I changed to correct coil on my 1974 Corvette.
Been perfect ever since.
IF ya look at location of V6 60* factory mounting of factory coil on our V6, it gives ya the reason to relocate it, cause I'll bet it's beaten up by the high output of exhaust manifold heat.
AND that exhaust heat wears out the connections of coil windings, causing a disruption of output & a dead engine.
Battery cables do wear out especially in those back east/snow belt locations. Poor power to a starter, plus high heat equals a no start situation so quick!

 

KED85,

You're right about the heat situation for V6, I think, but I'm an interloper here on the V6 thread. I was searching on "hot start" when I found it. I have an IROC 350. BUT the description in the original post is exactly what I have experienced with my car.

I did replace the ground wire to the battery, but not the positive yet. That sounds like a very good next step.

I completely agree that a lot of starters are replaced due to wiring problems. The wires are often replaced or at least tightened when the new starter is installed and voila! it works again. Also, a new starter and solenoid may be more forgiving of weak current--for a while. So, just because replacing the starter works doesn't mean that it was really necessary. That's why I'm posting here to get more diagnostic answers like yours.

We do have two differrent cars with different issues being discussed on this thread. Originally, this thread was about a "NO-CRANK" condition. Changing the coil or ICM for that problem is not the answer, although it might help the car run better once it does turn over and start.

Thanks for the advice It'll probably work. I'm not entirely ruling out the starter and solenoid or "heat sink" as the problem yet, but replacing things like battery cables first is a much cheaper place to begin.

 

When ya start snooping around down there, sometimes the answer becomes so apparent.
Especially for these cars in a rust or snow or rain belted area.
The cables corrode from within. BUT upon removal & such, the problem is so apparent
AND duplicate the factory installation PATH of battery cables.
Prevents shorting & also burning by exhaust pipes. SOME of these cars get tight confines under the engine area.
AND always remember this...
Have YOU owned this car since day one?
Imagine what previous owners or Bubba the mechanic may have done to this ride to get it sold.....
No start after driving is weak power connections, generally so. Extreme heat expands the weak wire connections (heat expands, cold contracts, right!)
OR could even be stripped nut connections on the starter (double nut it solves that one!) or......
Get down there, SUPPORT car on stands! and start fiddling around....work your way BACK TO THE BATTERY!
Glad this idea makes sense to some.
If it ain't this solution YELL LOUDLY AT ME IN THIS THREAD! So I can learn....
Sandpaper (for cleaning contacts) will become your best friend with this problem. EVEN SAND CLEAN THE NUTS! MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING STAR LOCK WASHERS! They are designed for electrical connections, NOT lock washers!
MAKE SURE your engine does have very good all FACTORY ground connections connected!
Lack of grounds on engine is a big problem with electrical connections. Those braided engine ground straps, should be one per back of cylinder head to firewall. Make sure those are tight and also clean contacts to metal, too.
I once discovered my battery post side post negative contact bolt was stripped in the battery! Yes that caused me some problems!

 

Thanks for all the good hints. Yes, I bought the car from someone who probably had some "bubba" work done on it.

And, just an additional reminder for those who have tried all this--make sure that computerized key is working!

 

Update:

I have changed the ICM and put a new Battery (Champanion 925 amp) car runs better but is still shutting off when hot.

Tomorrow I am going to check the Cat Converter.

I was running it last night and it seems to be overheating, when I turn the AC on it brings the temperture down. So, my thought is something is not letting the air flow out.

 

UPDATE:

Well Guys, the Mechanic states that my Water Pump is shot.

I'm wondering if it was just the thermostat> Would I not have more of an issue with the car if the water pump was shot?

 

New thermostat installtion, too.
Go for new sensors located by thermostat, too
AND include a new radiator cap, hoses, take your pick of extra stuff to install at same time or soon after.
Cause all those others things can also be worn down, too.
Have the guy check your balancer & also your timing chain for wear.

 

Yes, the thermostat and hoses and cap will be replaced at the same time.

 

dont know if this will help but my friend had that prob, his timing was advanced to much and when the motor was warm it was a pain in the ***, try geting it warm then messing with the timing

 

Hi Tamay, I am sorry you had so many problems back in June. I hope it's fixed now. I have a similiar problem on my 305TPI 5 spd IROC Convertible. When hot, no crank, but the battery and starter are fine. Once the temp gauge goes back down to 100 degrees, it starts right up.

I believe this is a safe mode generated by the Engine coolant temperature sensor. According to the book, it should generate a code 14 or 15. I am not seeing the 'check engine' light, and have not checked the codes.

The first time it shut down was after the roller/sniffer test at the NJ DMV. Their testing conditions are tough, because they accelerate the car on rollers, which makes it overheat. The Tech then turned off my car and put a failed sticker on it. Of course it failed, it was running at 260 degrees.

It has happened a couple of times since. So I am going to figure it out. Keep you posted.

 

I have the 12 code only which means there are no codes. I did a test run tonight and turned it off in my garage. Engine temperature is around 160, and no start. I should be referring to problem as no start-running temperature. All accessories work, but no click, or crank.

Went out about 10 minutes later, temp about 140 it fires right up. Battery, solenoid, and starter work fine.

I used my backup key which is like brand new, so I don't think VATS comes into play. The car has 65k on it.

The only modification I have ever done was disconnect the annoying siren from theft system.

bone stock.

I will post again as I figure it out.

Is there any advice from the tech experts?

 

wow...I am havin this problem as well. I'll go out somewhere maybe 20-30 minutes away..turn the car off to go in..come back out and doesnt start/click/nothin...I've replaced the starter (reman) and put a new coil in as well. Went out again, and same thing..I'm gonna buy this starter that can take "high temps" when I get the money and see what happens. But I'm also getting check engine codes..so eh..I don't know what to do...code 43 and 54. I think I've solved the code 43..but the 54..i have no clue...I'll update soon.

 

been a long time since I posted to this topic, but here is what I have found. I by chance ran into the original owner of my vehicle one night at a gas station, he had it from 89 to 99. Well, the first thing he says to me when he walks up to the car is "this thing still kill starter solenoids like crazy". Needless to say we started up a conversation and it turned out to be the orig owner. I am the fourth. He said that in the year before he sold it he put 2 starters in it and they both stopped working. Then he just replaced the solenoids and the starter would work fine until it went again.

I used to think it was a vats problem and then I found a half assed security system that was accompanying the vats and was linked directly to the starter. Turns out the security system wasnt his so that wasnt the problem. I had all the wires from the solenoid replaced along with the battery cable and had all connections ground down. To date, being about two months or so from when the problem really started to happen, it has only happened once, and that was when it was 95 degrees out and I was sitting in a parking lot prior to shutting off my car and then coming out 5 minutes later.

All I can contribute.

 

Hello guys and gals,

We just purchased a Camaro with a 2.8 liter V6 recently. We where driving it around and once we stopped the car it wont start again, it wont even crank just a bit. We checked for a bad battery but the battery was Ok. So we checked for a bad starter problem but figured out that the problem was worn out wiring. The problem is with the one wire that signals the solenoid on the starter. The wire is too old and when it gets hot it wont pass the necessary current to action the sloenoid on the starter. This is a common problem on some other cars. The problem is easily solved by running a new wire to the starter solenoid or by getting a separate solid state relay which will be activaded by the original wire. I will attach drawings on how to do it.

 

This drawing shows the original wiring

 

ok, all i can make out is the battery and the cables, everything else looks like splattered ink to me. The bitmap is very tiny and when enlarged is very unreadable. Just so you know.

Anyone else have this problem?

 

Yes, is too small I am trying to make it fit into the maximum file size but once I reduce it becomes unreadable.

 

try inserting it into a word file

 

Now the problem is that the server wont let me upload that kind of file, word file I mean.

 

Ok now, original starter wiring

 

Solution #2

 

And if you ever get stock out there with this problem you could easily start the engine with a jumper, some wrench, screwdriver even a nail clipper (that's what I had to use last time ) Just make direct contact onto where the cables attach to the starter motor and solenoid you'll be up and running! Just remember to leave the ignition on so that the engine starts, Oh! and be carefull with that hot manifold!

 

hi do you have a diagram of the wiring to solenoid to keep it from getting hot?

 

Hi car wont start when hot need help only when cold

 

Are your injectors stock? Something to rule out. Check the resistance on them when they are cold and hot. Stock injectors are notorious for coil failure and they tend to fail when they are hot