noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

I've finally decided what I want to do with my car. I want to build a brand new 60* V6 from scratch starting from a 3.4 block I pull at a local junkyard, and eventually purchase one of Dave's turbo kit's and end up with a TurboCharged 3.4.

My dad is a mechanic, so he's going to be assisting me through this, however I also want to do this to educate myself. That's what I'll be using this forum as, a means of self educating, and question asking.

First things first. Would a 3.4 block from a SFI Camaro be a good starting block? This is going to end up being a turbo charged engine, and I want it to be able to withstand atleast 20 PSI (I don't plan on actually running 20 PSI, just want to have a solid base.)

What is your input on this whole idea? If you were going to be doing it, how would you approach it? Would this Junkyard block and eventual buildup be a good idea, or should I just purchase a crate 3.4L from GM Performance Parts for $2,000.00 and work from that?

Thanks in advanced!


Oh, just a note, right now, I have a running, but fairly beat-up 2.8 engine in a parts car. I'll be able to use it for any parts I may need from it, just figured I'd add this in if it may help. Thanks again.

DemonKnightDK

THe 3.4 from the camaro should be fine as long as its not beatup on.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

I have no way of knowing that or not though, anything I could look for next time I check it out?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

have the block cleaned up & bores sonic tested before continuing. also see how much to have it blueprinted. have rotating assy cryo treated, and also have the piston crowns, valvve faces, combustion bowls thermal coated, and depending on teh pistons, have the skirts dry filmed.

I know, probably outside most everyones budget, but if you're looking for reliaable horsepower, do everythign right the first time.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hers what a coated skirt looks like

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Is there any after market crank, pistons, etc to have a beefier 3.4 in the end? Or should I just use what's already in that 3.4 plus a new cam / ported heads, etc.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

After doing a little bit of reading, should I get a FWD 3.4 block instead of the one out of the Camaro? I'm guessing I should also get some Gen III Aluminum heads and port them. Are there A.I.R. compatible headers available for the 3.4? What's the best way to build a strong bottom end?

Blue1989RS

I hope you're up for all the work you're signing yourself up for.

If you're going for the biggest and baddest 60v6 you can get, there is no replacement for displacement. Get the FWD 3.4 for sure, if you can. It will be a roller motor and have all the goodies possible for this block. The Gen III heads would be best, but then you have to do some custom work for the intake, spark control, and wiring. The crank should be good for lots of power, but it would be beneficial to get burlier rods and forged pistons. They make them.

Just remember, if all you going for is to be fast, it would be far easier and potentially cheaper to do this to a V8 motor. But if you're trying to be different, JOIN THE CROWD

online170

Im not an expert about the stuff youre talking about, but im often in the market for cars and parts. You can usually tell if a car has been beat on, just by what it is. A camaro, or a mustang are probably the most beat on cars ever. If you ever want to build a motor, dont pull one out of these cars. Everyone always drove them like they stole it, especially the v6s. They were cheap and plentiful, so why not.

You want a motor out of grandma's car. Look at the car, and try to figure out why it was junked. Something like a rear end collision in a fwd car is ideal. It means the car was probably running fine, but was destroyed because the damage was not worth fixing.

You wanna stay away from old cars that look relatively in good shape, without collision damage. Chances are, this one was scrapped cuz of high miles, and wear and tear. But if you verify mileage on a car that works too.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Blue1989RS, I can see you are going to be a great help in the future. I've never built an engine before, however I think this is a good way to start, and I don't want to half-*** it. I want it to be done all perfect. What cars are a good source for the FWD 3.4? Older Impala's or what? Also, what's a good place to read up on 60v6's?

online170

Impalas actually had the 3.8 litre, same as the grandprix, but the grandprix GTPs were also supercharged, very reliable engines.

As for the 3.4s, they looked identical to the 3.1s. However, i think the 3.4s were availible 96 and later. They came in things like, olds cutlass, grand am, lumina (car), lumina van, trans-sport van, the later ventures and montanas. I beleive buick had them too, but not sure which cars. Any of those are good candidates for granny type vehicles.

Blue1989RS

This is all up to you. The stock bottom end of any 86+ year 60v6 block should hold 300hp no problem. If you want to boost it to 20psi, you're going to run into troubles no matter what top end setup you choose.

To get you started, do more research and really ask yourself what YOU want. Check out 60degreeV6.com. That site covers all motors. Also look into the GM Performance Book. I don't have the part number with me, but I have it at home.

If you want to go all out, get a 98+ GenIII 3.4L motor, swap the electronics, and you'll be good. Turbo it later. Also think about the transmission and rear end. The V6 tranny might blow up on you if you throw too much at it. Plus the 10-bolt rear will only hold 300 something engine ft.lbs.

Feel free to ask questions.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

My goal is this:

Run a well built 3.4 with a turbocharger with boost set at 10-12 PSI. I don't want a 500 HP screamer, but I want a car with *****, a car I will actually drive, and I want to be different (Plus, can't afford the gas that the V8 would guzzle.). After I get the engine built, with the turbo setup, I'll get my 700R4 rebuilt + Shift Kit, a stall converter, and a 3.73 Posi rearend. If I were to run it in the 1/4 mile, I'd like to be in the 13-14 second range.

Blue1989RS

You could also do an LT1/LS1 swap. Crazy fast + 28mpg. Only 100lbs heavier than the iron head V6. $2000 and you'll be done. I'm pretty happy with mine...

Follow the turbo posts by Doward and Dave12secV6. I believe both ran STOCK bottom end 2.8's for near 12 sec. If thats all you want, get a decent low mile 3.1 from a junk yard, do a standard rebuild, and add a turbo.

You have to stay cost effective when you build stuff up. Not to discourage you at all. Doing a standard bottom end rebuild will teach you a lot about a motor. The only non-standard thing I did to my 2.8 was put a 3.1 crank in it, 0.060" overbore, cam, and balanced it. I'm happy with it and I didn't spend more than $1000 for a NEW motor.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

here's a good site to read up on http://60degreev6.com/index.php

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

It's not going to be easy to mod the FWD engine to fit in a RWD, or we would all be doing it to get the roller set-up.
I think the V8's are much more beat on than the V6's. Most people who had bought the V6 cars either couldn't afford the V8 (in turn couldn't afford to beat the crap out of the car) or was looking for a nice looking car with good gas mileage (again if looking for mileage probably kept their foot out of it).
P ulling the 3.4 out of the Camaro is a fabulous idea (actually considered it myself), but decided to build a 3.1 "from scratch" as you called it. Make sure where you buy the motor has at least a 30 day return policy in case you get a unusable block (still cost to have it tested). Sometimes JY's can be a pain about this, but I have been able to find places that have a 90 warranty and the parts are tested/cleaned before they get pulled (Barely Used Auto Parts for instance). If you are doing a complete rebuild, it really doesn't matter how the car was driven before you got it since you'll be replacing bearings etc, as well as having machine work done - it WILL be a brand-new motor when done. If you decide to go with crate, there are less expensive alternatives to GM. Do some searching and you can find places that have rebuilt or low mileage take outs.
MY , take it or leave it .

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Impalas were indeedd equipped with a 3400, along with the 3800.

The F-body is the ONLY car to have a 3.4 (RWD) installed from teh factory, so there are no other sources.

The 3400 and 3.4 are very different blocks, I'll get to that more later.

Something like this is a LOT of fun:



Ok, there's a few things you have to consider before you buy ANYTHING.

You have to decide what lever your fabrication skills are at. If they are mediocure or non existant, I suggest NOT starting with a 3400 block, here's why:

The 3400 block uses an aluminium oil pan that also supports the main caps, whihc is good, for strangth, bad when trying to install in a RWD vehicle. Yuo have a couple options here, all involve welding and fabrication.

To fit the 3400 block into the vehicle, you will need to either/or/and, cut the crossmemebr out and fabricate a smaller one to clear the oil pan, or modify the pan to clear the crossmembe, chances are, you'll need to do a combination of the two.
You will also need to fabricate a custom left side mount, sinc the FWD block does NOT have the provisions for the mount.
You will need to weld a small cast iron wedge onto the block, where the RWD starter mounts, due to there being a wedge cutout to clear the FWD trannies, then you will need to drill and tap this area to mount the starter, this is pretty finiky work, and requires some good jigs to pull off.

The good news is you can use the RWD front cover to retain the RWD accessories, and water pump.

You can also start with the RWD 3.4 block, that will bolt in and save a lot of head ache. Internally, all you'll be losing is the crossbolted mains, and the improved oiling system. People have made lots of power on both bottom ends.

I will suggest that no matter what block you start with, get the genIII top end, as it flows much more than the iron head does, and usually more stock than ported iron heads are capable of. The combustion chamber is a much better design, the light weight and the material are all pros for a performance build.

You will need to fab some headers to use these heads, or at the very leastchange the flanges on existing headers for a 2.8/3.1.

The ignition system can be a bit tricky, but the 3.4 block also supports the use of a crank trigger, so you can run DIS to keep things simple.

You don't need, nor want the 3400 PCM, as it's an OBDII system that is integrated into everything in teh vehicle, you'd need to swap the entire harness to make it work, and even then, it won't be very good.
What I would suggest is using a 7730, commonly found in Cavaliers, Sunbirds, etc that were all equipped with a 2.8 or 3.1. Also some F-bodies have this ECM as well.
This ECM supports the DIS ignition, with no adjustments, but will also allow you to run TGP (not GTP) code (3.1 turbo from '89/'90 Grand Prix), with some mask fixes that some guys have been able to fix, to run the turbo that you plan on. You could also use a 727, which is pretty much the same as a 7730, but with different connectors and was originally installed under the Hood, also used in the Grand Prix TGP.

Pistons, well you will probably want something decent. There is a manufacturer that has the blanks and program to make forged pistons for the 3400, that can be used in the 3.4 block, I'll get back to you with the manufacturer.

The intake can be turned 180* no problem, I had to shave some off the top of the timing cover to clear the lower intake manifold, but could be done with a grinder if need be.

You'll need to make a couple adaptors to bolt the accessory mounts the end of the heads, the iron head and aluminium head use different bolt patterns for this.

Cams, well there's more aftermarket support for the genI block than the genIII, though the aftermarket is building for the genIII. I'm running the GMPP equivilant to the Crane 260-2, great cam, I like it, but want more eventually.

This site is dedicated more to J-bodies than F-bodies, but there is information on the "hybrid builds" and also a forum specifically for "other platforms" where there are a few of use RWD owners that post.
http://domestic.3400z24.com/

That's about all I can think of for now, any more questions let me know.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Six_Shooter, I have yet to see less than amazing from your work and always have good info. Is that the 3400 in your Jimmy?
EDIT : Also is that the stock SFI upper I see there, how was that to work with?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

few questions/hijacks thread a bit for six_shooter:

1) for the t-5, couldn't one use a 3800 bell housing & hydralic clutch assembly? starter cut out is on drivers side.

2) if you keep the obd II comp, there's always dhp or hp tuners for programing.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Thank you.

The engine is actually a hybrid. 2.8L block from an '86 S-10, 3.1 crank, .030 over making it a 3.2L. The top end in that pic was actually a 1995 3100 top end, smaller ports than the 3400, but it is being upgraded to a 3400 top end.

Yes, that is the stock intake. There was nothing unusual about using that intake. I made a few parts like the throttle bracket and swapped on the linkage from a 2.8 TBI, but I'm looking at changing the throttle cable and bracket, since I beleive I can pull a longer one from another car to route it more like it would be on an OEM genIII 660 vehicle.

1), I'm not sure, I haven't really looked into that bellhousing, and how compatible it would be, but weren't those trannies just like the nerwer NVGs where the bell housing was actually cast as part of the tranny itself?

2) For the amount of effort it would take just to get the car running on the newer SFI PCM that would be in one of these SFI cars, you could have bought an aftermarket system had it tuned and be running down the road, while saving money overall, and with less headaches.
To get the OBDII PCMs to work you literally need to retain the entire harness, including dash, doors, and tail light wiring to get the PCM to fire up. GM has decided to integrate everything together. Hell some cars you need to retain the radio for the car to run (there are modules to bypass that now). You would also need to retain the tranny, as all 3400s were automatic utilizing electronic trannies, and the PCM needs the feedback from the tranny or it defaults to limp mode, no resistor tricks will work here either, hence why my Malibu is still an automatic, I'm trying to find a surefire way around those tranny controls.
In a retrofit situation, using the ECMs from teh older vehicles will work the best, yes it will still be MPFI at that point, but SFI is only good if you're worried about economy.

One thing I forgot to mention about the 7730/7727 ECM in the last post was that these, with the right PROM have controls for electric fan, so in a case like my truck where it did not have an electric fan, I now have full ECM control over the fan.

I will also be looking at using 7749 soon, as there is support with the Sy/Ty, and could be tuned for a smaller V6 turboo, but will take some work to control the ignition system, lots of tuning there.

Bad-Newz

This is pretty much the same setup that I was thinkign for my RS... Although, I think I might put the turbo on the stock engine 1st and just build up another engine on the side...

Bad-Newz

Im really sitting on teh fence though whether or not I should do it or I should do and LT1 swap... really Id just like to do wateva costs less and is easier...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That's my plan . Except the stock motor isn't staying stock either, haha.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

For me, it's either this or an LT1, I'm just not sure.

Maxboost

Check out all the threads posted by "daves12secv6", he turboed a 3.1 with iron heads with great results.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Noah, why don't you get one of Dave's kits now and use it on the stock motor? This way you could learn about the turbo system on the engine you didn't spend all that time building (in case something goes wrong and damages it).

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Well, one of the only problems I'm thinking with Dave's kit, not sure if you considered it, or he even knew, Firebird's and Camaro's batter / smog canister's are in opposite locations. Just gotta save up the 3g's for one, hehe.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes that's been addressed. He sells kits for left or right battery locations. He will sell partial kits also, just contact him.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Oh sweet!