firebird1992

OK this happen in one day ok.....

1. Running lean after about about 30 mins of drive or once car hits 219 degrees
2. only 109 miles a TANK (14.7 gallon tank)
3. smell of gas inside the car
4. spark plugs are black and have carbon deposits

OK i change the spark plugs 3 times, change the cap, rotor and wires.
air filter check the timing and the distributor is new, new fuel filter .

change the engine oil with 5w-30 and the tranmission oil and even the rear-end i got bored and the car was on the lift.

im about to junk the car it only has 72,258 miles on it so its not even broken in helplz

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Ok, hold up. First you say it's running lean, then you describe symptoms of running rich. Which is it?

None of the stuff you've changed would have any effect on this problem. Got any codes? O2 sensor, coolant temp sensor, intake air temp sensor, etc could all cause a rich condition and should set codes if they're out of range. Has it always been this way or is it something that just started happening? Did you make any modifications or changes lately (larger fuel injectors?) that could be causing the issues? Does it run fine aside from the issues? I'd start by looking at the fuel system. Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and turn the key on and off a few times to build up fuel pressure, check for gas at the pressure tap on the regulator. There shouldn't be gas there, if there is the regulator is bad. Check the resistence of the fuel injectors, all 6 should be closely matched to each other. If you have one or more that is out of sync it could be sticking open. If you have access to a fuel pressure tester, hook it up, cycle the key a few times and see if the pressure holds after turning off the key. Give the engine bay a careful visual inspection, look for gas leaks, broken vacuum lines, etc. Look around the tops of the injectors where they connect to the fuel rail and watch for gas leaks. Are you using the correct gas cap? Some are vented, some are not. Park the car on a steep incline and look under the back end around the filler neck to the gas tank, watch for gas leaks. The tanks on some years were recalled for bad welds around the filler neck resulting in leaks. You probably won't just accidently fix the problem throwing parts at it, you'll need to do some diagnostic work.

zs&tas

yeah def chill out man thats nout that cant be fixed, check codes o2 sensor then ohm injectors give em a good lookin over and check fuel pressure, all this will give an idea of which way to head, let us know how you get on and we will guide you through it. you cant junk somin that pretty now can you??

firebird1992

ok sorry it just i can't believe this happen in one day and i spend 3 weeks and over 500 dollars taken it to shop after shop and everyone said that theres no problem with the car

but i have a
lean error
and a misfire error no rich error

ummm the gas smell is coming form the front of the car no leaks i had a UV leak test done i did alot of checking im about to take the motor in 2 day at my friends shop and then i don't know what else it did everything by the book checked or change almost everything to do with gas

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Break out the paper clip and post the exact error codes you're getting. Sometimes (most of the time) the error definition isn't telling you exactly what's wrong, it's just giving you the symptom.

Also, no offense but owning a 16 year old car and taking it to the shop everytime there is a problem is going to nickel and dime you to death. Get on Ebay and get yourself the GM/Helm service manual for your car. It might cost you $40 now but it'll save you a lot of expense in the long run. The Haynes and Chiltons are worth reading, but they won't really tell you anything that you'll need.

zs&tas

well it cant be runing lean if the plugs are black, so the o2 must be bad?? and maybe the plugs arnt firing strong enough if there all that black, bad coil? if everything is checked properly youl soon find it, i never trust garages to sort my probs out, its usually something small and they charge a fortune in labour to find it. all you need is time, a good manual can help if your not sure.

firebird1992

Well some new info has come to light it seem my little brother took my car ok and ran it through a underpast that was flood and never told me the car shutoff after the fact. but it just cranked right back up but water got everywhere in the engine bay so i think the coil maybe bad the O2 it only a week old

and i do have A Haynes for 84-92 firebirds a must for these cars

well im going to order a coil form Rockauto.com and i know shops are crap but every shop told me the same thing so i had to see but most of the time its a different story for every shop.

i will keep u guys updated

ohiotemplar

If it's not too late I'd like to recommend that you go with the ACDelco one for $47.79. And not the cheaper ones. I had to send my airtex one back b/c it actually was as strong as the stock one I took off. I had some black plugs from that as well. The Delco made a large differance. What you have sounds like a combo of something bad in the ignition and a possible vacuum leak. Just my 2 cents. - Nate

firebird1992

well i thown a total of 1200 dallor in parts and labor to this problem so whats 47.79 more lol

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It's $50 you probably don't need to spend. The coil isnt going to go bad from getting wet. However if your distributor cap is cracked or loose and there's moisture inside it, that would be a problem. Same goes for water on the plug terminals at the plugs or the cap. If there's water the voltage is going to go through the water rather then jump the plug gap.

What codes exactly are you getting? That manual won't have anything about troubleshooting the codes. In fact it's virtually worthless for everything but torque specs and B&W pictures of a car that probably shares little in common with yours besides the make and model.

firebird1992

here are the error code spec
13.Oxygen sensor signal stays lean during warm engine cruise
35.Idle speed can not be set to desired RPM
48.Misfire

i changed the cap and rotor and wires and plug the distributor idk i need to check on that

Drew

iTrader: (58)

First, have you cleared the codes and driven the car to see if they come back? The GM ECM will store the codes regardless if the problem has been fixed till the battery has been disconnected for a minute or two. If you have an aftermarket stereo, it might take longer for the power supply in the head unit, or a capacitor to discharge. You can hook a test light between the positive battery cable and the negative battery cable with the battery disconnected, and wait till the light goes out to show when the system is discharged, then give it another 30 seconds to a minute to clear the ecm memory.

This is exactly what I was talking about.. Code 13 doesn't necessarily mean lean or rich, it can mean the sensor is sluggish, a wiring problem, or a faulty ECM. The GM manual gives a description of the possible causes along with a flow chart to diagnose the problem and tell you which part is bad. Now you can follow the chart, or just throw an ECM and O2 at the problem and see if it goes away. Since you said you replaced the sensor it could be an old stored code, or a bad sensor, bad connection, wiring problem, or ecm problem. Following the charts will narrow it down. Even if you dont have a scan tool you can usually get away with a DVOM and a test light.

Sorry for the quality of the scans, getting a four inch thick book to lay flat on a scanner isn't easy.



The 35 has a similar diagnostic chart... But before getting into that, I'd suggest getting a couple cans of carb cleaner and clean the throttle body, IAC, and the passages in the TB for the IAC. Use an old toothbrush to scrub the TB bore behind the throttle valve, and the back of the throttle blade, etc... Spray out the passages for the IAC till they're spotless, spray and clean the pintle on the IAC with the toothbrush and carb cleaner till it's clean too. Try to hold it with the pintle down and avoid getting cleaner into the electro-mechanical part of the stepper. Here again are the charts for troubleshooting it. Some of it won't be practical without the dealership shop tools but still it should be helpful.

firebird1992

wow thanks for this but i clear the codes but some crazy happen to day ok.
i got stuck on the highway and it was cold so I left the car run and the code came back and i had my code reader the and the car was running lean now and get this the car was running better it idle perfectly and 500 rpm no looping ro gas smell but once i started moving again the error went away and it started running like crap again (the gas smell, no power in low rpm's)

923.4v6

Mine done it a few years back and the map sensor vaccum line came undone then I seen all the vaccum hoses needed replaced since the were dry rotted. It was running so rich you couldn't ride with the windows down due to the gas smell.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I forgot to mention, code 48 is an invalid code for the 3.1. If you're using a code reader then try using a paperclip and count the SES light flashes.

Your error going away and the crappy running coming back are probably because your ECM is going into limp home mode cause of all the errors.

firebird1992

Im are to swap the Ecm out of my friends firebird becasue he turbo charged his 1992 v6 now he going to twin turbo it but he took out the ecm years ago and it works so im going to try it to see if its the ecm

firebird1992

ok i give up after 18 spark plugs ,a new cap & rotor, new Ignition coil, spark plug wires, 2 O2 o2 sensor, a semi-new ECM , and over 800+ dollars in other parts and labor i give up..... don't get me wrong i love my firebird it was my frist american made car but its a money pit now and a major headache i can't figure out the problem and im done i cant keep dumping money in this car and none of the repair shops cant find the problem so im going to sell the car for parts or just junk it. but right now im taking the engine today to if i can't find any thing then idk

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Where are you located?

firebird1992

NJ i found the problem 2 of the injectors had a short in i don't know how the wires were touching the metal and just stayed open so YEAAAAAAAAAA u all very much i learned alot about my firebird with this well since the engine and trans is out the car now time pop some turbo on the bitch and i mean twin turbo and a big thanks to drew super helpful New question now i know i need bigger injectors and i high flow fuel pump mmmm a new crank and cam and a new oil pump and pan wouldn't hurt and some pistons but waht the max boost i can run and would a twin turbo set even be good idea instead of one turbo

rs_racer_20

wow i my CAMARO has the same problem but it backfires everytime i step the gas but it dosent backfires when is cold??? think is the same thing?

firebird1992

change the o2 sensor my problem was a injector open
the o2 starts sending once the engine is at 174F so after about 5-10mins of running it would start again and is the idle bad and are the spark plugs black with carbon.

rs_racer_20

Did a tune up bout a week ago but it got better but after 2 days of running it it started acting up but ima go for the o2 sensor but wich one tho? I think my car has 2 idk.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Yours should only have one O2 sensor...unless someone put in an additional one with a gauge. It is the one right near where the 2 pipes off the exhaust manifolds meet.

rs_racer_20

well checked the o2 sensor and found out that bitch has some kinda tape wrapped around it but ill change it soon and see if the check engine tunrns off and it acts a lil better.

firebird1992

keep us updated

rs_racer_20

WTF!!!!! Changed the O2 sensor and the same thing im thinking the car is out of time cuz wen i step the gas pedal it lags to pick up speed and back fires like some 3 to 2 times and then it runs good but wat i dont get is that it dosent do it wen its cold only wen its hot. and kills gas like nothing.

firebird1992

yeah i had the same problem umm see if u can e-mail Drew he knows alot about that stuff or check the picture he up loaded see if that helps

rs_racer_20

Other thing my idle is bad cuz the car sounds like if its going to die but it does'nt

firebird1992

well i installed a new Idle Air Control Valve and my idle was fine again but remember i had valve problems

ScottieB

if its backfiring, adjust the timing. you may need a new timing chain, fix the dizzy, cap/rotor, plugs, plug wires, i dunno... but if you just simply advance it, it will stop backfiring, but it will NOT solve your problem.

rs_racer_20

well the tune up done, why the timing chain? Because back then wen gas prices were low the car ran just fine, like in the way that wen you flored it will obey but like i said it only acts wen it hot not cold. and already changed the o2 sensor and does it again

firebird1992

mmmmm do u have a coolant leak.
u check compression mmm waht else
any errors mmmm heat.......are u overheating any idon't i need to get back to u
----------
ok shot in the dark Air Charge Temperature Sensor

rs_racer_20

No man no leaks but today is was hot *** hell and the car dint act for nothing but the check engine still on but i know it will start to do it again but ima take a look of at does

firebird1992

well whats the error u have a code reader

rs_racer_20

That is a problem cuz i dont know were to find a obd1 scanner. I work in Auto zone but we only have obd2.

midwest

gm obd1 scanner ... Not only can you pull codes with this tool. If you stick it in the correct terminals you can have the check engine light read the o2 cross counts as you drive.

firebird1992

lol i forgot about that reader
----------
well u going to have to order a reader or use the O mighty paper clip

rs_racer_20

im new how it works?

midwest

good

PanterAGod3

i had the same problem you described. change the timing chain and get new injectors. the stock molex ones are CRAP.

rs_racer_20

Well got the code reader and it flashes 12-23-33-43 it says that is the firs one that the tester is working good the next one is the (MAT) sensor or TPS error and (M/C) solenoid the next one the MAF sensor and MAP sensor the last one electronic spark timing low voltage detected or circuit problems.

firebird1992

ok well now you need to change the Ignition Coil , MAP SENSOR you check the pcv valve. but first just take the codes you do have to a shop and see what they say.

cre81r

iTrader: (1)

If you wanna do your own diag
Code 23


CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION:

The Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor uses a thermistor to control the signal voltage to the Electronic Control Module (ECM). The ECM applies a voltage (about 5 volts) on CKT 472 to the sensor. When the air is cold the sensor (thermistor) resistance is high, therefore the ECM will see a high signal voltage. If the air is warm, the sensor resistance is low, therefore the ECM will see a low voltage.

TEST DESCRIPTION: Numbers below refer to circled numbers on the diagnostic chart.

1. Code 23 will set if:

•  
  • A signal voltage indicates a manifold air temperature below -35~C (-31~F) for 10 seconds.
  • Time since engine start is 4 minutes or longer.
  • No Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS).

1. A Code 23 will set, due to an open sensor, wire, or connection. This test will determine if the wiring and ECM are OK.
2. This will determine if the signal CKT 472 or the sensor ground return CKT 452 is open.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS:

A "Scan" tool reads temperature of the air entering the engine and should read close to ambient air temperature when engine is cold, and rises as underhood temperature increases. A faulty connection, or an open in CKT 472 or 452 will result in a Code 23.


Code 23 Wiring


Code 33

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION :

The manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor responds to changes in manifold pressure (vacuum). The ECM receives this information as a signal voltage that will vary from about 1 to 2.0 volts at idle to 4-4.8 volts at wide open throttle (Low vacuum).

TEST DESCRIPTION : Numbers below refer to circled numbers on the diagnostic chart.

1. Code 33 will set when:

•  
  • Engine Running.
  • Manifold pressure greater than 74 kPa (A/C "OFF") 83.4 kPa (A/C "ON").
  • Throttle angle less than 2%.
  • Conditions met for 5 seconds. and
  • Vehicle in first gear. or
  • Vehicle not in first gear and TPS is less than or equal to 6%.
  • Engine misfire or a low unstable idle may set a Code 33.

1. With the MAP sensor disconnect the ECM; should see a low voltage if the ECM and wiring is OK.

Code 33 Wiring


Code 43


CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION :

The knock sensor detects engine detonation and the ECM retards the electronic spark timing based on the signal being received. Under a no knock condition, the circuitry within the knock sensor causes the ECM 5 volts to be pulled down so that CKT 496 would measure about 2.5 volts. The knock sensor produces an AC signal which rides on the 2.5 volts DC voltage. The amplitude and signal frequency are dependent upon the knock level.

If circuit 496 becomes or shorted to ground, the voltage will either go above 4.8 volts or below 0.62 volts. If either of these conditions are met for about 1/2 second, a Code 43 will set.

TEST DESCRIPTION: Numbers below refer to circled numbers on the diagnostic chart.

1. This step determines if the condition for a Code 43 still exist (voltage on CKT 496 above 4.8 volts or below 0.62 volts). The system is designed to retard the timing 6°if either condition exist.
2. The ECM has a 5 volt pull-up resistor, which applies 5 volts to circuit 496. The 5 volt signal should be present at the knock sensor terminal during these test conditions.
3. This step determines if the knock sensor resistance is 3900 to 4500 ohms. If it is the sensor is ok.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS:

If circuit 496 is not open or shorted to ground and the voltage is reading is below 4 volts, the most likely cause is an open in the ECM. Also, the Mem-Cal could be drawing the 5 volt signal down and it should be replaced, if a replacement ECM did not correct the problem.

Code 43 Wiring

rs_racer_20

Thanx for the info cre81r