I'm about out of ideas. It cranks normal a few turns, then really slow, then normal. Doesn't want to start no matter where I have the distributor turned.

Last time it ran it started when I had the base timing at 22 and as it warmed up a little it still didn't want to run very good when I adjusted it back to around 10, but it was running smooth around 20. The EST was disconnected.

It ran fine one day, and just wouldn't start the next day.

Fixed my wiring harness after the repinning and splicing from the attempted 165 swap, and tried another 302 ecm from the junkyard.

I think my other smaller problems are coming from a fuel pressure regulator vac leak. No fuel coming out of the hose, but it won't hold vaccum using a vaccum gun.

 

Also, what should I be looking for for base timing while cranking.

It cranks fine with the coil wire unplugged, but once there's spark it struggles.

 

It doesn't really turn fast enough to see the timing when you're only cranking. As long as you're even remotely in the right neighborhood you should be able to get the car to at least start so you can see it.

 

Replace the fuel pressure regulator diaphragm and reset the base timing to 10* BTDC... The engine becomes hard to start up around 18 BTDC and you're putting the base timing where the ECM controlled timing is supposed to be. The reason it idles like garbage at 10* BTDC is because of the high fuel pressure. It's not supposed to idle perfectly at base time, just start and let the ECM take over from 400 RPM.

 

Was getting ready to pull the regulator diaphram and found out it isn't really leaking. Holds vaccum fine.

Put everything back together, made sure dist wasn't 180 off, plug wires hooked up right, ect. Cranks a second or two and then does that starter-my timing is way off- kind of bogging. It coughed, but then it sent a big cloud of fuel vapor out the air filter. Does this no matter where I point the distributor. I need to get someone that can turn it over while I rotate it, but whether it's probably retarded, advanced, or possibly about right, I get the same results. (was trying this time with the EST plugged in)

The no.1 piston tops out at the 0*tdc mark, and I can feel the compressing air coming out of the plug hole as the rotor comes around to point towards that cylinder.

 

Sounds to me like you're looking in the wrong places for the problem. If the car isn't well maintained I'd do a run of the mill tuneup on it. A bad enough fuel filter, air filter, spark plugs or spark wires can indeed prevent starting... When it cranks is it firing at least and just won't catch? or does it just turn over? First thing to figuring out why a car won't start, provided nothing major is wrong, is there are always 1 of 2 reasons:
1. It's not getting a proper ignition
2. It's not getting a proper amount of fuel

The way you rule one or the other out is starter fluid down the plenum/throttlebody, can even spray it right in front of the MAF, just keep in mind the stuff is said to be bad for injectors so don't make it a habit, just do it once to figure out if its fuel or spark. Then go from there. Otherwise there's just too many things it might be.

 

And a timing chain could plausibly cause issues with the ignition, since it runs the cam, which in turn runs the dizzy.

 

Dumb question, but did you mess with the plug wires at all? Your firing order could be off.

 

Here's a rundown on what happened.

Middle of summer it suddenly developed an on/off/on power loss that was barely noticeable. Fuel economy dropped slightly too.

Couple months ago it simply refused to start one night. Just cranked and cranked with no attempt to even fire.

Plenty of spark/ fuel pressure is 45.

Base timing was 16 while cranking with EST unplugged, and the car started and ran fine when I advanced the base timing to 20-22. Purred like a kitten.

When I tried bringing it back down to 10, it started stumbling more.

When no.1 piston comes up on compression and tops out, the balancer is at 0* tdc and the rotor is pointed towards the no.1 cylinder.

If the chain slipped somehow (only about 20,000 miles on it) I don't see how it ran as smooth as it did as mentioned above.

I fixed my wiring from my failed 165 swap, and tried a different 302 ecm also.

With the EST dis-connected or connected, and the distributor rotated anywhere from retarded to advanced, it cranks like it's trying to fire while the piston is still coming up.

Replaced ICM, and plug wires have been quadruple checked. Made sure too that it was coming up on compression when I inserted the distributor and I wasn't putting it in 180 out.

rotor is turning also, so I know the chain isn't broken. Dist gear roll pin is good too.

Cranks fine with the coil wire unplugged.

Cap and rotor look fine, reluctor fins aren't quite lined up when crank is on tdc and rotor is pointed at no.1 cyl, but I don't know if they're supposed to be or not.

If I could get it to start like it did a few weeks ago I could at least get it over to my house from my dads place.

 

Well, if that's the case, then the only thing left to do is remove the timing cover and verify that the cam and crank are working together on time and that the chain isn't loose.

:edit: Just for kicks, try swapping the #4 plug wire for the #1 and going from there.

 

Maybe worn cam lobes or leaking HGs?

 

It's frustrating at the same time trying to shop for another car. I'm desperate enough to just go ahead and get a 3.8 4th gen (was dead set on a 5.7 at first), but I still want t-tops with a manual tranny.

Of course, I can't find any in my price range that aren't already a pile like mine.

Well, I'm heading across the field to mess with it for a few minutes. I'll double check my distributor alignment and try cranking it again.

Probably will start pulling the timing cover off tomorrow.

 

Hmmm.... distributor might have been one tooth off. Put balancer at 0, and upon closer inspection, rotor looks to be pointed farther to the right than it should be. I pulled it, rotated it one tooth back and put it back in.

Looks like it's pointed closer to cyl 1 now. We'll see what happens in the morning.

 

Got the dist in the right spot, but I'm back to where I started.

Started at 16* with EST unplugged, I backed it down to 10, ran ok until it warmed up and started running rough. I advanced it some more and it got better, but not great.

Hooked up the EST, and had to advance it again a little to get it to start. Runs about the same. Looked to be around 30* with the computer controling the timing.

Did a compression test, 160 give or take a couple lbs on a few cylinders.

Plugs are pretty dark though, one having a chunk of carbon bridging the gap.

I was reading the thread on the CCP system causing problems, so I'm going to try testing that.

 

Replace your spark plugs and see what happens from there. Badly fouled plugs can actually short and not even make a spark, or just a very weak one.

 

Hopefully I'll get to it this week. Otherwise it will be this weekend.

The plugs were obviously messing me up, but the whole "something doesn't feel right all of a sudden" back in July, and then "it won't start" last month still has me thinking something else was going bad.

ICM (replaced)
charcoal canister
EGR (moves and has no vaccum leak)
vaccum system (everything holds vaccum except the valve thing the EGR and TB hook to)

I can't think of everything at the moment.

 

I may just be ignorant, but crankshaft position sensor?

 

There is no crank position sensor.