ow85

Hi, I'll try to remain upbeat as I explain the situation...
Over the past 4 years, I've taken my 85 bird to 10 shops now, and she's still not right. The problem started with her stalling when idling for about 2 minutes. She always would crank right back up.
The check engine light did not come on.

One mechanic replaced the distributor (afterward, she stalled on the way out of the parking lot).
The next mechanic replaced the cap and rotor (which had been done with the distributor).
Next was the MAF and temp. sensor. Then the computer. Then another computer. Then a chip for the computer. A cat. A new timing chain (mine was only 25K old). Fuel injectors. More fuel injectors. O2 sensor.
Fuel pressure regulator.

One place had her for over a year. He said the wiring was "swiss cheese" . He also replaced many parts and sensors (he says I owe him $2K in parts, but he hasn't given me a receipt to show exactly which ones.) I picked her up on a Friday, and she broke down that Sunday (diaphragm in the fuel pressure regulator was torn?) Also, she seemed extremely sluggish with a subtle stumble when adjusting speed.

The 10th shop was the one that found the rip in the diaphragm. He adjusted her timing (again) said it was about as far off as it could get. He set her timing purposefully high to blow the soot out. Whatever he did was awesome!...she had her old stuff back...for a while. After about 200 miles, she started idling rough. The stumbling was slightly more pronounced. Got about 15mpg. He readjusted the timing to "closer to GM specs". Now it's awful again. To get ANY acceleration I literally have to put it to the floor, and , reluctantly, she'll go with lots of shuddering and stumbling. And her temp is slightly higher than usual.

I've had her 20 years, this year, and the damn thing is more like a family member than machine. But really...is there ever an end? I'm just not sure that there's any hope of finding a "cure" for what ails her. Does anybody out there recognize this story? (Geez, I hope not, for your sake) If you think of something that might have been missed, please explain it in..."girl terms" so I can understand. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my story!

P.S. She was stolen some years ago, and the crooks blew my engine. It was replaced 25K miles ago with a Jasper. Transmission was rebuilt shortly thereafter. Odometer reads 226K.

ex-x-fire

The shop needs to put a scanner on it & watch the iac counts when it stalls. Check the grounds, esp. the ecm grounds.
Make sure the harmonic dampner hasn't slipped, if it has you'll never get the timing set right. When they check the timing make sure they follow the instructions on the emissions label. & make sure it advances when you rev it.
I'd suggest you get a fuel pressure test gauge & put it on the can when you have trouble & see what psi you have, it should never be under 35psi, & should hold psi after the engine is off.

ow85

Hi, thanks for the reply!
Her fuel pressure has been checked many times, but it seems to read fine everytime. The stalling stopped after her year-long shop stay (I don't know which part/repair fixed that.) She has only stalled once since then, and it was after she was flooded when the fuel thing broke...the mechanic said the computer was trying to reset itself after such an incident.
When he set the timing this last time, he went by the emissions label, but it left her idling waaaayyy too low and with no power. That's when he bumped it up so it wouldn't stall, so now it idles better, but has no power.
What is a harmonic dampner? This is one thing that hasn't been suggested yet, so I'm intrigued.
I'm supposed to take her back tomorrow for a readjustment, I guess. They said something about replacing her O2 again, that the soot from the flooding out might be fooling its readings. Plausible?

enswrob

timing should be set at 10 degrees before top dead center. (btdc). sounds like the distributor could be off an tooth.

ex-x-fire

The harmonic dampner(balancer) is on the front of the engine, behind the pulley that drives the belts. It has a notch on it that you use to line up the mark on the timing tab. The timing tab has all the marks (degrees) to time the engine, if the dampner slipped then the marks wont be accurate.
What you need to do is pull #1 spark plug, turn the engine over by using the crank bolt, till the piston is at the top of the stroke. You might have to use a coat hanger to feel if the piston is at the top. If the dampner is good the notch should be very close to TDC or 0 on the timing tab.
Like I said before make sure the timing advaces when you rev it.

enswrob

if the timing chain was installed wrong it would cause alot of the same issues. nice idle and no power. i managed to install the timing chain off by 1 tooth and had to pull and reinstall it. that was a bad weekend.

ow85

UPDATE:
The mechanic adjusted the timing again today and it's soooo much better! He adjusted it back to specs. The harmonic dampner checked out fine. And this time he unplugged the battery so that the computer could start from scratch. So far I'm very happy with that part.
You know, what was said about the timing chain...the timing chain was replaced because the other guy thought it may have jumped a tooth (is that right?) because of a cat restriction. Can it really do that?
He did say I needed to have my engine mounts replaced soon. When they are going bad, does it cause a considerable amount of vibration, almost like an unbalanced tire?
Thanks again!

84CAMARO28inFL

Your car sounds like mine, a lot of people suspect "Timing."

Any "smoke signals" at AY time during all of this? please do tell. Mine has intermittent ones and its riving me f**king Crazy!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Did any of these shops check the condition of the engine itself? It sounds as though they thought they had a problem with the engine controls, but they didn't do anything such as checking the compression first. If the base engine isn't right, it can't be expected to run right. The ECM will be trying to overcome a problem that it physically cannot do because it wasn't designed to run a badly assembled engine. Your problems could be caused by any number of things, but the first thing I would do is get a compression gauge and assess the health of the engine itself before messing with the ECM, sensors, and wiring.

Also, if the engine was put together for a post-88 car and you're using your stock '85 flexplate/flywheel on the back, you're going to get vibrations, and you're eventually going to have to replace the short block (block, crank, rods, and pistons) again due to the fact that there is an externally balanced flywheel/flexplate on an internally balanced engine, throwing it out of balance and vibrating everything to pieces, starting with the engine mounts and crank bearings.

:edit: Also, one other thing: Go to a junkyard and get your hands on a stock 1227302 AC/Delco GM ECM. I had a "rebuilt" ECM when I bought the car... First it wasn't running the fuel pump (bad driver for that and the pump was running off of the oil pressure switch). Then, a couple of months later, after I replaced the ECM with a junkyard one (that later turned out to have the same fuel pump problem), I swapped it back in to test the other, and nothing happened. The ECM was totally fried. Opened it up, and one of the driver transistors was literally broken in half. Why? Still don't know that one. But, with all of the "rebuilt" parts I have ended up replacing (2 alternators, water pump, MAF sensors, etc), I definitely won't trust a "rebuilt" ECM. And, for the MAF: Check it good. If it isn't an AC/Delco replacement, throw it at whomever put it in and demand a Delco. I've had 2 of the aftermarket "new" ones. Each failed after a year and a half. They are designed differently, and not put together the way the Delco ones are.

ow85

Crap! I just put in a reply, but the internet ate it. So this response may show up twice!!!!
Anyway...I dont think anyone has suspected an actual engine issue. My original was replaced with a Jasper that was supposed to be identical. The Jasper only has about 26K on it.
I know what you mean, about the flywheel and harmonic balancer. I ran into that problem when my 87 Blazer received an engine from a 91 S10. I thought my tooth fillings would fall out, it shook so bad. But my FB doesn't vibrate that bad at all. The closest description would be like a slighty unbalanced tire.
About the ECM...I can't swear as to what it is. I know the chap who replaced it got crazy readings right after and so he replaced it again to make sure it wasn't a dud. I'm pretty sure he said he tried a used one too, as a triple check.
Mechanic #9 has not given me a parts list of the things he replaced or a receipt, but I'd really like to know where he got the parts, and info on the warranties, etc. Is there a way to eyeball the MAF to see whether it's a delco or not?
She is doing so much better now that the timing was readjusted today. This is probably the best she has been in YEARS, literally. I will wait to see how her mpgs are now.
By the way, thanks to you, MaverickH1L...due to your other posts I was able to fix my interior lights by doing nothing more than disconnecting the cigarette lighter. Considering all that has gone wrong, it was so nice to win that small, but significant battle.
And as for you, 88Camaro28inFL, what do you mean by "smoke signals"? Certainly, if there's any way I can help you, I'll be glad to do it! (Try not to get flustered. If you are stubborn enough, you will win in the end. I promise.)

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Check the MAF by looking inside of it. The aftermarket ones I have seen don't have a "funnel" that focuses air over the frequency film on the board. One of them didn't even have the film in the right place ON the board. It's supposed to be smack dab in the middle of the board, and the one (the last one) had the film on the outer edge of the board where the air comes in. No wonder why it got bent up the way it did and then it failed . There may be an aftermarket part number sticker on the underside of the MAF board housing (the rectangular part on the side of the tube that the harness connects to). The Delco one should have either a 2 or 3-letter code followed by the 8-digit GM part number (should start with a 2550... I think the Camaro one is a 25507557 and I know that the Bird one is a 25507668 as I have one right here a few feet away from me) on a black sticker.

Also, these cars like to run best on Delco plugs. If the plugs in there now are either Autolites (about the cheapest you can buy... can even get them at WalMart) or Champions, get rid of them. Check the resistance of the plug wires (should be no more than 20K ohms per wire or 10K per foot). If the ignition coil doesn't look like it's ever been replaced (still riveted to the EGR bracket), it probably needs to be. The spark should be bright white when you pull a plug and disable the fuel injection by disconnecting the 4-wire connector at the front of the engine and then crank the engine over with the plug resting on a metal part.

But, definitely check the compression first. Find out how the base engine is working, and then go from there.