Well, as you know (or might not), I'm doing a 2.8-for-2.8 engine swap. My friend blew his 2.8 in his '89 Camaro, and he got an '86 2.8 for $100.

The Camaro friend's been cleaning up that '86 2.8 motor for the past few days. Yesterday was the day that I and my other friend were going over to help him. We showed up, and found out he took off the heads! $#@*!! He also didn't keep track of which pushrod went where- so technically we need new pushrods.

So we had to pick up some head gaskets, and scrape the block free of old head gasket. Tonight I'm picking up the heads themselves to scrape them clean at my house. He also pulled off the water pump and timing chain cover- you got it, more scraping, and more gaskets to buy.

I feel bad for him.. his $100 swap has just had $50 added to it- and that's not including the cost of a new chain. He also doesn't want to spend $35 for new head bolts- which I think is going to screw us over. Remember 82T/A stripping out his block because he re-used the head bolts? Ugh.

Also, anyone do a head gasket? We're scraping, and we're trying not to let any crap fall into the engine. Of course, crap is still falling in. Do we have to drop the oil pan because of this? Or can we just fill the motor up with oil, and then drain the oil, and hope that will clean out the pan? Or is all this crap getting lodged into the oil drain-back holes? If it is, can we push it down into the pan with an engine brush kit, or will that just wedge the gasket pieces in further? What about the gasket pieces that fall into the coolant passageways? (We're not letting huge chunks fall in, by the way, but we're getting flakes here and there.) We plan to spin the motor upside down (on the stand) and blow it out with air...

I have a question for you '89-up guys, too! Ever seen your fuel rail and injectors? This '86 didn't come with the rail or injectors, and I'm hoping there wasn't some design change in '89. We'll have to put his '89 rail in, or go hunt for an '85-'87 one at a junkyard. Does your injector look the one on this page, at the bottom-left of the first picture? http://www.cruzinperformance.com/fuelinj.html

Also- '89-up guys, do you have a cold-start-injector on your intake manifold? I wonder if we should install his '89 manifold on the '86 block, or just keep the '86 manifold on.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
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[This message has been edited by TomP (edited February 22, 2001).]

 

Tom, The EASIEST JOB will be to recreate exactly what was previously there.
Everything already on the car, can work, with that ECM, then.
This is what happened to my swap job and why it is so successful.
In other words, reuse the 1989 fuel delivery system.

I rebuilt my 1985 2.8 just using the 3.4 long block.
I do not know about heads as I did not remove them.

I will say a push rod is a push rod to the lifter.
What's critical is the lifter to the cam.
Make sure the passage in the push rod is clear.
Gook falling into the engine and hoping the stuff will go into the oil filter?
Let me tell you a story.
On my 1974 Corvette, the timing chain was breaking up (plastic teeth on aluminum gear falling off).
Guess where I found all the missing teeth?
Oil pump screen, clogging it about 75%.
It's you choice.
Head bolts, not sure.
I have reused exhaust manifold bolts, tho.
Hope that give ya tips!
Remeber I thought my swap was going to take several days?

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder towards re-using his '89 manifold. If the injectors are the same, we won't have to bother with that. They're both MPFI intakes, except the '86 has the cold-start-injector.

That's what I'm worried about; clogging the pickup screen. I was hoping that by pouring oil down the drainback holes and then draining the motor, the crap won't get a chance to get sucked up by the pickup. Hm. I see us having to drop the pan already... but even so, that doesn't say that all the gasket crud is out of the oil galleys...


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
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Tom, With the oil pan your already there. If your that far go ahead and pull the pan clean it out and if you want, you can look at the bearings too. Your going to spend the same amount to pour oil down into the crank case just to drain it as you'd spend to get another pan gasket. At that point it makes more sense to me to just take the pan off.

When you put the heads back on, remember you need to put sealant on the threads, they go into the waterjacket. Also put a small amount of oil under the boltheads so you get accurate torque readings

I hope your not trying to do this without a maunal!

I personally think you can get away with the old pushrods if you want. The rocker arms need to be reinstalled with the same pivot ball they had as do the lifters. If he has the lifters mixed up, start looking for a new cam and lifter kit.

 

Tom,
Keep it real simple!!
IF his car is a 1989, put all the 1989 intake system back on, period.
DO NOT try to mix & match.
It will haunt you!!
Wait unitl you enjoy rehooking up all the plastic emission hoses, oh fun oh joy!
Blow compressed air thru the oil passages, from the bottom up!
You can also use long needle nose pliers to pick out stuff.

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Tom,I will agree with 87Rs.Since the engine is accessable I would pull the oil pan to take a good look at the bearings.
Since you plan on cleaning the engine with air,while you have the oil pan off,use the air to blow through the oil passeges.Also if you already have the brushes use them also.

As for the cold start valve(injector)....yes.
It is placed pretty much right under the distributer.And yes,my injectors look just like the injector on the bottom left of your pic.

If the engine ran,why did your friend pull the heads?Just wondered!
I reused my head bolts.It's been a year almost to the date since I rebuilt my engine and have had no problems,besides that damn distributer o-ring leaking.
Good luck Tom.


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[This message has been edited by Kevin S (edited February 22, 2001).]

 

Wow, thanks for the info, guys! In order-

87RS, true, if oil pan gaskets are as cheap as a couple quarts of oilp, then we might as well. Plus I've never seen a crank up close and in person, so that'd be a nice view. Thanks for the info of the sealant on the threads! Should I spring for the $12 GM tube or is there some RTV (or etc) that I can use? What about Loctite? Oh, that's not waterproof, nevermind. Now the sealant won't mess up the torque, as long as we lube between the head & the boltheads? Aren't head bolts supposed to be installed dry?

I have a few manuals... I have the GM/Helms '86 Service Manual, the 82-92 Haynes book, and a book by Tom Currao on "Rebuilding the 2.8". Problem is, Tom C's book talks about doing a "proper" rebuild- not the project I'm involved in right now.. unfortuantely. It looks like we'll be doing the old pushrods; GM wants $8/each! ($8 times 12... ouch.) Thanks for the info that the old pushrods would be fine. As I left the motor Wednesday, the rocker arms were still on the heads, and the lifters were still in the block- if my friend's taken those arms (or the lifters) off, I'll frickin' kill him!!

KED, I would've thought to move the intakes over in the first place, but we want to assemble the engine hopefully this weekend, and just dump it in when it's "swap time". This way we have less to wory about. And looks like Kevin S gave me my solution as to the cold-start injector below. And yeah, that plastic likes to snap... I still have some rubber vacuum hose in the basement when I cracked a few of my lines. Thanks for the idea on shooting the compressed air "bottom up".

Kevin, sweet!! Thanks for the cold start valve and injectors info! Awesome! Now we don't have to switch any manifolds around. I wish I knew why he pulled the heads. Originally he was just yanking the valve covers- I think he was bored, and said "why not"? What a shame! Thanks too for the info on reusing the headbolts! That's great! I found out that the head bolt set for $36 is justified... GM wants $2.50/head bolt, so, 2.50 * 16 is around $40. I'll have to get that distributor o-ring today, too.

Because of all the damn NJ snow yesterday, I never got to pick up the heads from his garage. I'll try to get them today. Geez, if he pulled the lifters or rocker arms off...


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Hi Tom
GO get the the GM White Silicone in a tube.
I used that on my rebuild. NOT A DROP OR LEAK.
Oil pan gasket, you needed one if you did the timing chain cover, anyway. Not really as the timing chain set has agsket in it.
WHEN YOU TOUCH THE BEARING CAPS!
Only really need to PULL OFF THE BACK ONE AT THE OIL PUMP!
I know.
There is no need, on earth, to pull more than that one.
You will disturb a sleeping giant!
If you need to examine the bearings, take only the oil pump main one to a mechainc or machinst for his opinion. WHEN YOU REINSTALL IT, put a film of moly lube grease on bearing surface. This will prevent you from ruining the bearing upon restarting.
Really no need, at all, to touch any more than that one bearing cap.
You are putting on a NEW rear main seal, right?
If you take off more than one cap, you will distrub the tolernaces of rods, already set, by formerly running the engine.
If you want to play, beat up on the blown 2.8!
IT IS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE TO NOT touch more than you need to.
IF YOU DISCOVER YOU NEED TO TOUCH BEARINGS, do one at a time and retorque it right away. You will keep tolerences 100% better, that way.
Honest.
FYI, when I did the cheap engine rebuild of my 1974 Corvette, I replaced the timing chain balancer & oil pump. I pulled only that rear main cap. Took it to a machinst. He said bearing looks brand new. That was at 131,000 original non-rebuilt miles. I'm only going to rebuild the heads, on this 350 block, now

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

I'm not sure I want to look at the bearings, as you said, the less I touch, the better. I want to touch as least as possible!! That's why I'm considering -not- replacing the rear main seal. The dealer wants $20 for the rear seal, and I'm pretty sure we have to disturb either the crank or the rear main journal to install a new seal. I found the oil pan gasket for $8 online, I'll price it locally today.

I'm trying not to spend any of my $$ on this guy's engine... but it kills me to do something half-of-the-way. (sigh)


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

I couldn't agree with ya more on doing things
half-way.
Do you think your friend would be willing to part with the not used mpfi plenum,upper and lower?
I want to try my hands at polishing.I would try it with mine but I don't have the time to take mine off and polish and put it back on.I plan on replacing the cam sometime soon(I hope)and would like to have a polished plenum to put back on.
Thanks Tom
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I got my sig working.....


[This message has been edited by Kevin S (edited February 25, 2001).]

 

I've got one from my 3.4 swap. Contact me.


The rear main seal couln't be easier to replace.
It's one piece.
It's as easy to replace as opening a jar.
Out comes the old (observe direction of lip seal before you remove it completly), lube new one with film of oil, push in, use fingers. etc, to seat.
Totally simple.
I wish adjusting the valves was that simple!

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Tom, Ked is right. If you want to look at the bearings, only look at 1. As for the sealant I use loctite thread sealer. I've heard of guys using teflon plumbers tape in a pinch, but, I'm no plumber and my engines aren't copper pipe. You don't want to use silicone if you can avoid it. It will work but that isn't the job it's intended for and if you have to do the head gasket again you won't have to pick the damn silly-putty...er cone out of the damn bolt holes and you also won't have silly-cone in the water jacket.

I think I would put the pushrods back in upside down from the way they came out. That keeps the wear surfaces different from the previous pattern. Lifters spin, rockers rock, don't ask me why I do things like that, I just do. You need to lube under the head on the headbolts! Just a drop or so of oil and maybe a little on the threads, You have to do this. It keeps your torque readings more accurate by providing lubrication, duh. (no offense) That way you are measuring the the strech of the bolt not the torque to overcome the metal to metal contact.

Don't feel bad I just got drafted to do my buddy's small block for his camaro, I'm trying to talk him into buying my "spare" 396 so I get to go through all of this again soon.

EDIT: Where's the spell check?

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Remember, Behind every successful man is a suprised mother-in-law.
-Gallager
Qsac

[This message has been edited by 87RS402 (edited February 24, 2001).]

 

Tom,
What exactly are you doing with this engine, Valve job, or just cleaning up the old gaskets, an replacing them....or is this a half rebuild???

Reading this gets pretty crazy...lol,



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1987 Firebird
2.8L Auto
T-Tops
Fresh paint
No mods yet...
My site http://www.camaro3rdgen.20m.com

 

It started out as a "swap an '86 2.8 for an '89 2.8 that ran with no oil."

Then, my friend took apart the good '86 engine! So now we had to replace the head gaskets, replace the oil pan gaskets, replace the intake manifold gaskets, replace the timing chain & timing chain cover gasket, and replace the water pump gasket. I've never had to do heads before..


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!