i had a bit of an argument with some one the other day. and this is what i need to know.
this guy has a 3.0 mitsubishi twin turbo with aluminum pistons. well any way he said he put bigger turbos on and a fuel managment system bigger injectors blaa, blaa, blaa, he said his car has 800 hp i just dont think that that engine with aluminum pistons would handle that amount of hp. i told him 350 nascar car run 700 750 hp. does anyone have any expertise in these engines. i cant believe it. tell me what you think!

 

Well if you force enough Air into any engine and the fuel system wil give it enough fuel anything is possible.
NAscar engines are very restricted, If they weren't I am sure they would be running 1200hp.
Though I doubt that his 3.0L is actually producing that much, but if he had dual 25psi Turbos and the Proper cams he might, though his car wouldn't handle it for very long. I know of a few 3.8 Turbos making about 600hp. Oh well I doubt hes even close.

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89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

I call Bullsh!t on that one. Although those cars are cool anyways!

------------------
1992 Polo Green RS 3.1L K&N conical and working on the ram air....

"Yeah, it's a V6 SO WHAT!?"

 

all pistons are aluminum

 

well ive never heard of forged aluminum.
or cast aluminum!

 

I am sorry that much horse power is not a truly driveable car for the road. Ya it is possible to do, but I seriously doubt he has over 350RWHP or FWHP...

 

Well. heres a good one. Now this is dependant on a few things. Yes it is possible, and yes it can be a daily driver and be driven on the street and still beat our MPG. Its called a Boost controller.

Now he said he had aluminum Pistons, BS, no. Possible yes. The majority of the turbo motors have a aluminum lower half and a reinforced dome.
The Turbo's? sorry Mitsu does not make a "factory" Twin T. Turbo yes, Twin No. Upgraded fuel system, almost imediate after you even think about a turbo install. Mitshu engines, especially stock ones are horrible for durability. The turbo motors rarely go 75K before they melt. Now if someone rips it apart and actually builds it, hold on the something thats planted deep cause its gonna rip.
Now the Hp Issue, CAN a SINGLE TURBO get 800 HP? Yes Buicks little black shoe boxes do it all the time. Cheap? HELL NO. Those are 8-9-10K motors. Hell Toyota 3.0 Single/Twin turbos can support 750 HP on a STOCK BLOCK AND INTERNALS and last. Now if this were a 300Z I would be less weary, cause they WERE TWIN T's and THEY HAULED. But the Eclipse's while yes the Turbos are quick, unless the motors built they have a VERY limited Life span. Not to mention they stopped making the a few years ago. The new Eclipse' are non turbo and not an option yet.

Remember guys theres WRX's starting to come over now with little pink bages on the rear ends. That badge means that engine is 280HP Stock(UP from 227), from a FLAT 4. Intercooler, turbo, fuel your looking 500 PLUS. and climbing. and not to mention the AWD means they squat and ZIP you see tail lights if your lucky.

 

The 3000GT VR4 was a Twin Turbo AWD car. It also was a hard top convertible. I know this for a fact, my Doctor has one and he lives on me street so I have seen it many times, but it is not faster than the TTA, mainly because he wont drive it hard and power shift or go over 100mph on the street.
So yes Mitchubishi(Sp?) does make a Twint Turbo.
Oh and a few of the Black Shoe Boxes have ran 10s on stock internals except for cam. Though this engine would not be useable for very long it has been done.
A turbo car can be very streetable with 800hp because unless you get into it it wont build any boost. Therfore not producing that much HP. I mean my TTA, only having 300hp, is no different from driving my escort as far as street ability goes. Though once you go WOT it changes everything.
Then true if you have an adjustable boost controller then you can limit the turbo to only like 10psi on the street. This would prevent the sudden droping of the throttle and losing control.
Oh yea on a side note, did you guys now its possible for a buick 3.8T to run 25psi of boost on pump 93 gas? It can with alcohol injection. I just got into researching it today. From what I understand you can gain about 12 RWHP for each pound of boost over stock. NOt exactly the same at each increment, but its in that range. SO I figure upping from 16.5 to 23 and dialing it in with alky I could get about 75hp at WOT from just that. THen through ina dump for quicker spool up and free exhaust(cause the turbo gives the engine all the back pressure it needs), a race chip, a better air intake(for quicker spool up again) a little upper air intake porting and I would say I have another 125 HP for around $600 and a little work. This is all on the stock turbo, if I would use a larger turbo the gains would even be higher because of requiring less work do give the same amount of boost. let see what would 425 RWHP put a GTA through the 1/4 mile in? 12.5? 12? I dunno but I hope to find out. Judging from other it is in the 12.3 range.
There now there is some good tech in this topic.

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89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

Oh yea the faster spool upmeans more HP and TQ quicker. Allthough it doesn't effect peak numbers, but it gives you more power in the lower RPMs to accelerate faster, mean same HP, but quicker times and faster speeds.

 

 

Yup Kyle I forgot about that one.. damn and I see them all the time too!.. LOL must hate 'em that much is all... LOL

 

he also told me that hes running 36psi of boost. and it is a mitsubishi 3000 gt t-turbo
i looked up the stats it says 286- 320hp.
depending on the year. i still dont believe
that if you already have t- turbos and you want bigger ones that your going to gain 500
more horsepower and i think he said he had a boost controler.

 

He is bull ****. With 36PSI his engine wouldnt last long. That is way too much stress on that kind of engine. 700hp isnt impossible but it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely. Im sure he is making alot of power no doubt but 700hp is bs. Bigger turbos arent always the answer. Most people do it this way sad enough though. They get the biggest turbo they can afford. Thats not the way to go. To make peak hp and torque you need to get the RIGHT turbo for the setup you have. If he got a bigger main turbo then the sister turbo would have to be bigger also or he would start to make alot of lag. Anyways I gotta get dressed and head out, its gettin late. I will tell more later when I get a chance.

 

It'd be interesting to ask him where his dyno sheet is... of course, I'm sure he has a very good reason for why he hasn't put the car on a dyno.

I can tell ya tho, if ANY car I owned had a possible 800 HP, the guys at the dyno shop would know me on a first-name basis!

See if you can dig up a Mitsush.tsi web site, with "real" guys that have 3.0 twin turbo cars, and see what they say.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l)

 

The only problem associated with a bigger turbo is lag time. Peak HP depends on the "sweet spot" of the turbo. Some are juat made to produce more boost than others, and if you cant spool there fast enough you are wasting money, but it will still make more power than a lesser turbo because of less work needed to compress the air and less heat build up. You just wont be realizing the full potential of the turbo.

 

I dont think they can dyno a VR4. I mean its AWD so what are ya gonna do?

 

Pull the motor and use a water brake flywheel dyno

 

Eh, too much trouble.

 

Actually I was reading an import magazine (I was at work, and it was the only one there) and they DO have a way to dyno AWD cars. Something about basically removing one of the driveshafts therefore putting all power to two wheels. And if I'm not mistaken, they also now have a AWD dyno.

 

Dont lie! We all know you and your sick love for the honda 4 cylinders!

 

Yeah its possible .It just depends on how many stickers he has . a good ole fartpipe is worth 50 ..HA !

Does a turbo car sound differnt ? I've heard some , but wasn't sure if it was that exotic V6 sports car sound or if it was the turbo ? Do these things ever go out on a car and people have to replace them ? Or can you just drive the car with a non working turbo ? Wayne

 

Althought I've never driven one of the late model Mitsu's I did drive the late 80's model Dodge Conquest TSi (2.6L single turbo 4 banger made by mitsu) fun little cars. 250 hp on about 9 psi of boost.

36 psi? Whats he running for fuel, 180 octane? No way, he'd have to have like 3:1 compression to run that much boost on pump gas. I could see 350-375 hp out of a stock longblock. After that the engine wouldn't last.

 

4WD dynos DO exist.



------------------
-Dan
-1990 3.1L RS
-Mods? no
-Slow? yes
-*Slowly* collecting parts for T5 swap

 

Though its far from 36 Supra's can run 29 PSI and a stock block and on pump gas. And the motor will take it on stock internals even. You can run any amount of PSI you want. Theres 2 way to control detonation, 1 fuel QUALITY(Octane&Brand) 2 Timing, you retard the timing no detonation. Though you may lose some HP by retarding the spark, but if your running that much PSI 50-60 Hp is chump change. I am not saying its likely he's running that high, just stating the parameters. There's pro drag turboed cars running 40 PSI, but they have to run like 130 something aviation fuel and still they have to retard the timing. Supercharged cars took a while to get to learn the boost retard, the import guys grabbed it cause they knew that they could not run the needed octane to run full open boost all the time.

 

As far as sounding different, it's not really in the exhuast. It more the slow whine yu begin to hear at 1900 RPM's that slowly gets a little louder until the turbo is at full boost. Kinda like the old time roots 'chargers that really whinned, tone that down some and you got what the actual turbo sounds like. At least thats been my experience, both drive by, and driving/ riding in.

 

My TTA sounds like a jet when you Go WOT. Its really cool, hair driers are fun!!
Oh and by tthe way my first race in the TTA was against one of these. Well kinda, but the turbo sound is what brought this up. I was out running the car around the loop of a country highway(cause it doesn't have tags yet, but its driveable). Well anyways I got behind an older man in his VR$, not my doctor though... couldn't be that lucky to get him on a good road LOL, He was goign slow so I figure I would just pass and that would be that, but when I went out to he nailed it so being as I dont have tags I thought I would just fall back in and go 60 be hind him. Well then he starts to slow downa again and I try to pass, same thing happens. After about 4 or 5 of these I got pissed and on the next straight stretch I told my friend I am just goign to jump on it and pass him whether he likes it or not.
Well I am guessing he thought he had another slow thirdgen behind him because you should have seen the lok onhis face when I passed him with thte turbo screaming. It was priceless.

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89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

Woulda loved to see the look on your face if yall raced from a dead stop. LOL

 

Its friday night so....ehhhh, I guess I will take the Z28 out to work tonight. I will look for any VR4s and I well let yall know how I did with it.

 

G0D has spoken!

Ok, I know nothing, you know everything.
29 psi on stok longblock and pump gas? BullSh*t! There you go again believing everything you read.

In the future please make your posts believable, it will add greatly to your credibility.

 

I would have had a big smile after that initial car length shrunk into nothing and I blew passed him. WEll actually I thing I might need to up the boost first, but soon. Besides I have $4000 in my car he has what $35000? So I would be smiling even if I lost LOL

 

Well Im home and no luck finding a VR4, I found a civic with **** all done but I didnt mess with him (waste of gas). But on the way home I met up with this yellow C5 corvette. Well he was riding my *** and I was just chilling. Actually I didnt know what it was from behind all I could see was lights. Then he got next to me and he kicked it and I kicked it too but he pulled on me. I dont get it, I have beat new SS's but the Vette was walking. I felt so bad, I need NOS. That would have saved my ***

 

Well Hmm lets see considering the article was about a project by a so Cal speed shop, yes I would believe it. Especially when they include the Dyno run. I never said I was *** , But about imports and turbo systems and how they work on supras I probly know more then you. This was a 3 years rebuild, using all stock componets EXCEPT the cams. They Used performance ones for obvious reasons. They were doing this to see just how much the stock internals could take, and so far the engine has survived 18 months by now of abuse and daily driving. It's runs alot faster then your car I am betting, hell probly faster then anyones here to be street legal. Lets see what was it, oh heres the article 9.786@157.080 MPH. Now if you wish to continue trying to prove yourself in every post especially when your wrong then I will point it out. Do you have any clue what the straight 6 3.0 toyota can take? obvioulsy not, those are one hellova engine. Nearly impossible to break. At last a follow up article was done and they finally broke the engine on a dyno and when the engine's crank snapped it was at 690HP@29.99PSI and climbing. Now lets see your FACTORY internal's take that!. They said they ripped the engine apart and it could even be salvaged, with the head being redone cause just about all the valves were broken off.

Now this was not meant to flame you by anymeans, just mearly correct misinformation. There are turboed cars running all over that are pushing 25PSI(hell thats the minimum boost a serious import will run) ON PUMP GAS. Need I remind you that the 300 ZX was set from the factory at 23PSI?, I know my freind I work with has one. How about the after market kits, they recomend at least with the rebuild and spark computer to run 22 PSI for real gains(I yet again know because I SELL them). It is not impossible and as long as you keep an eye on EGT, AFR, and knock/detonation your fine. Hell you can run 2 gallons of 93 then fill the rest of the tank with octane boost and it still running on pump gas!.


[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited November 09, 2001).]

 

HEY 87RS402, You say do not believe everything you read in magazines. Well does that go for the High Performance Chevy too? or just the Import ones?. Sorry but these people have no reason to lie. It's not like I am tring to prove something in National Enquirer for gods sake. Now granted did I say its gospel, no. I said it has been done to this, this is what happened. Did I see it no, can I prove it, not unless I feel like traveling 2500 miles to go to the shop. So inother words no, I can point you to the article but thats about it. And I know pointing you to the article with you Big Bad 402 you'd be ashamed to pick up the mag, fearful of finding out that there are many a Supra and even Miata's that can hand you your A$$ at will. Not to mention the Eclipse's, 200 SX, RX-7's... need I go on? I know my car is not the fastest thing in the world, but I'm NOT TRING YET EITHER. When its done to the way and engine I want, it WILL BEAT YOUR 402 However. And it will still be a V6!. Your the typical american "muscle" head that believes in nothing but american cars, well while I give respect to SOME american cars I give some to IMPORT cars as well cause THEY deserve it. They make more power and or are faster with an engine less then half your displacement, thats what deserves real respect. Thats inguineuity, to do the most to what you have and not go mainstream and follow the heard of goats and say "bigger is better" cause in todays world that simply no longer the case.(engine wise at least.)

Now this WAS meant to flame you. No one else.


[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited November 09, 2001).]

 

No replacement for displacement. Its a proven fact. If you take a V8 and an inline 4 and do the same exact things to both the V8 will ALWAYS come out on top. Some engines were designed better than the other. Take the Marko and Hennessy fit that was going on a while back. The Supra could hang with a V10 twin turbo. The V10 wasnt running as much boost but that wouldnt make that much difference. The Supra reacted better to the boost. You will NEVER get a engine to take a blower better than a factory equiped one. GNs for example, why do they go so fast? Because they were made for the turbo. You take a SBC and turbo it the same as the GN and chances are that the GN MIGHT come out on top. Because it was made for the boost. That is why most of the imports react so well to the mods. Take the Eclipse for example. AWD, you put a 25G behind it and I bet you $100 it will lift the front end off the ground. I have seen it done first hand. And that cost what, $1000 at the most? What I am trying to prove is if it was made for N/A then it will take to N/A mods. If it was made for a turbo then it will take to boost mods. But there is no replacement for displacement. You cant argue with that. You can say yea the turbo supra 6 can take a V8. Thats true, but one: the supra has 2 turbos that would equal to more than 8 cylinders and two: it was made for the turbo. But if you make the V8 for a turbo and the inline six for a turbo then the V8 will always win.

 

Monkie this was not intended to start a war. But there are even single turbo Supras that will beat the 8. What I was saying was in todays world you can have a 4 a 6 have just as much power as the 8 without the 8's needs ALL the time. Needs being Fuel for one, there are maybe 2 turbo kits for the 8(if your lucky) versus dozens of Supercharger kits. Now the bad thing with superchargers is they are ON ALL the time even city stoplight to stoplight and even when you don't NEED that 600Hp. The import Turbo's however turn it down in the city but in a race they have the same amount of power the 8 has. Yes I know if you do this or you do that to the 8 it'll make more power, but fact is your gonna spend more doing that same thing to an 8 simply because the parts are not readily availible so you will have to have custom parts made. I have had this arguement to many times with american muscle heads, Not meaning to offend anyone but you all say the same thing "but if you do the same to..." Blah blah blah is what I hear. Its NOT done to the 8 Its NOT AVAILIBLE for the 8 so there IS NO COMPARING to the 8. And the main reason it's not availible for the 8 is severe lack of interest and lack of room in the engine bay short of ripping stuff out to make room.
I have seen a Eclipse with a Solid T4 under the hood and he still had plenty of room with the intercooler, and he had ALL THE ACCESORIES STILL WORKING.
Please do not get into this fight yet again. Face the facts that are in in this. The parts are not there like they are for the imports, so there is no comparing the 2.

 

Oh I agree with you 100%. I was just pointing out There is no replacement for displacement. Bottom line. But you are totally correct. The turbo is better than the supercharger on the street. And if you could do the same exact thing to the V8 as to the 6 then the 8 would come out on top. Too bad no one markets this type thing for V8s. Then again if they did who knows what numbers we would be looking at.

 

Since G0D has spoken again I will humbly back out of this discussion. I can not and will not compare my real world hands-on knowledge to his "I read in a mag once" experience, nor will I resort to flames to make myself appear superior.

Grow up.

 

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