Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Was going to wait until after i've done it to a thirdgen to post, but i'm sure there are several here who could benefit from it, so may as well share.

We all know there are quite a few people here who could benefit, but of course the cost for actually converting over to a T56, is pricey.

This thread shall be the Toyota R154 party, its used in the supra (mk3), soarer, and other things, mated to toyotas 1JZGTE, 7MGTE, and often behind enough 2JZGTE's because of its strength and availability. You should be able to find one anywhere from 300-800$, typical price, of course some will be able to find better deals than others.

Now of course, how do we get it stuck to the V6 in your thirdgen ?

The dodge dakota used a variant of this transmission, the aisin ax-15, which is very similar to the toyota R151, which will bolt to the same bellhousings as the R154, oddly enough the dakota used the GM metric bellhousing flange

The Dakota bellhousings seem to be quite cheap, around 20-40$


Gear ratios:

First 3.251
Second 1.955
Third 1.310
Fourth 1.000
Fifth 0.753
Reverse 3.18

Bellhousing:



Things needed:

R154
Dakota bellhousing
Driveshaft, new/modified/voodoomagic
Custom crossmember
vss/bufferbox/cable/voodoomagic
Clutch disc to fit your clutch with correct splines.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yup that deff looks like the right bellhousing that 1-2 split looks just as bad as the 700r4 though


good info though

we do have another option and thats to use the speedway motors trans adapter for 60$'s and then we can bolt any standard pattern gm trans to the 60* engines

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Gm transmissions have always been an easy option, but the cost of anything useful (TKO, T56) being so high was my reason for making this one known.

project89

iTrader: (1)

how much power is that thing good for stock? i ag5ree the tko/t56 is route is kinda pricey and only 2 ppl i know have actually gone that route

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Interesting. Looks like it's lighter than the T56 too. Although not t-5 light. hmmm...
A local shop priced me ALL the parts for a t-5 swap at $600. I was all set on that route, but this is making me reconsider.
Good info.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

A local guy was running one for a while behind his 600rwhp 2JZ in a 240sx

They are supposed to be pretty strong, I believe the main power handling upgrade for them is simply a new front plate for the tob tube.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

If you are going to end up making some power, dont reconsider, just run away from the T5

If you are just going to be running around with a stock V6, just get the T5

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

What year Dakota? The old 80s square or 90s round body.... or doesn't it matter?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

96-00

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

Anyone in the V8 world done this swap before? Does it require a different/custom driveshaft? I'm currently in the middle of a V6-V8 swap and would rather not bolt the T-5 back up, but I dont have the cash for a T-56.

Fallen2603

Do you know what the input shaft diameter and spline-count are on the R154?

What about the clutch diameter usually used with the R154?

Just trying to figure out what clutch can be used...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes there are bellhousings available for the sbc flange as well, just remember if you dont already have a torque arm that's not mounted to the trans, you'll need to do that, or make a bracket.

Yes you'll need to have the driveshaft modified with the right yoke for the output.


29mm x 21T

You can easily have a clutch shop build you a disc.

Tilton is an awesome choice as well.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Apparently the AR5 in the solstice is very similar, though the ratios are different and will bolt to the same bellhousing.

They seem to go for around $500

It seems like it uses the GM 1-1/8 x 26 input shaft.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if thats the case then the 4.3 or 4thgen 3.8 clutch disk would work that is if im rembering the spline count corectly

Fallen2603

Cooool.

Since the clutch for the V6 T5 is about 9-1/8" in diameterr and the Supra clutches for the R154 are between 9-1/8" and 9'-1/2" in diameter, do you think it would just be okay to put a Supra clutch, with the correct spline-count and input-shaft diameter, between the Camaro flywheel and pressure-plate?

Or, would you just recommend going full custom clutch and pressure-plate kit?

I got those clutch diameters off of Summit, just FYI.

Are the input-shaft lengths different between the AR5 and R154? And, do you know how deep that '96-'00 Dodge Dakota bellhousing is?

I do prefer the R154 gear ratios to the Aisin AR5.

Thanks for all the information!

project89

iTrader: (1)

as long as the clutch disk pysically fits in the presur eplate/flywheel it should be fine.

one thing to check would be clutch disc thickness, if the disk is thicker or thinner then the camaro clutch then it wont work.

i.e if its thicker the presure plate prolly wont fully release
if the disc is thinner u wont get full force aplied by the presure plate

if the disc is thicker by a slight amount u could prolly make precision shims for the presure plate to use it

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

People have been doing that for years with success, so I can't see why it wouldn't work in this case, as long as the clutch plate thicknesses are within the same range, and the sprung hub of the disc will fit within the pressure plate, then it will all work the same.

I'm looking at doing something similar for my next engine swap, due to the trans I have selected to mate to my 660, I have the additional issue of added space due to an adapter, that I need to account for though.

Fallen2603

I see what you're saying. CenterForce makes clutch kits for both applications. I could probably get in touch with them on the thickness of each...

Also, some info on Pirate4x4 makes it sound like the input-shaft of the R154 is just right for Dodge Dakota bellhousing. It may need a longer pilot-bushing...still reading. Here's the link:

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740

Post #6 and picture #4, I believe.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Ordering the clutch kit with whatever diameter and hub you want should be no issue.

Just call up clutchmasters, act, etc, getting what you need in that aspect is common at this point.

Fallen2603

Thanks, again, for the information!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Even though I have already bought a trans for my car, and at this point I plan to keep forging ahead on it, this R154 idea has piqued my interest, but the one thing I haven't been able to find is what kind of power they will take.

Fallen2603

All the stuff I've been reading is saying 400whp shouldn't be a problem. Seems the major weak-point of the R154 is the 1st gear thrust-washer, but that can be replaced with a cheap chrome-moly piece that really ups the abuse it can take.

Reading about a lot of 600whp Supra's on stock transmissions...

Most of them are saying stuff like, "Just don't abuse the transmission."

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

In that case, I'll definitely move forward with the trans that I have, I plan on plenty more than 400 HP, and plan to abuse it, which I know the trans I have is fully capable of.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Mallet is using the stock AR5's behind the LS2 swap solstice and sky conversions.

Its a newer (updated synchro) version of the R154, possibly a little weaker (due to the 3.75 1st instead of 3.25), but hey theyre holding up there.

Most supra users of them have tested them in 600-800WHP applications, I highly doubt you'll pull off hurting one thats in good shape with a 60* V6 anytime soon.

So unless you've got a TKO, or T56 already, you're probably headed the wrong direction.

34blazer

chuck mallet is still in business? last time i went by his place the doors were chained shut, investor trouble from what i heard

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Even if they have closed, plenty of the solstice/sky conversions have been done, and proven to work with the AR5

Gumby

This guy builds 1 off adapters to mount exoitic combo's
very easy to talk too, almost got to learn from him but our free time didn't match up.

Bill Hincher
http://www.billsautofab.com

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I've been working on adapting a T56, but this looks like another great option. Nice thing about the T56 is that there are swap crossmembers readily available, stock driveshaft works, torque arm mounts normally, and VSS should be compatible with a programmed ECM.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the t56 swap should be a very easy retrofit behind a v6
speedway motor trans adapter and it should bolt right up using the same clutch compents as u would for a v8 swap, with the exception of u would use a v6 flywheel and presure plate,should be able to find an oem disc that will fit as well

Fallen2603

This clutch disc should work for the T56 swap:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctf-384120/overview/

Right input-shaft diameter and spline-count. Hell, even the clutch diameter matches up perfectly.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind that if you're starting with an LT1 T56, the input shaft is very short which means you need a thick flywheel and a custom-length pilot bushing. Also, you need to convert to a HTOB to use a normal pressure plate. FYI, the 3.4L F-body clutch setup has a thick flywheel, right splines on the hub, and the pilot bushing has the right O.D. And I.D., its just not long enough.

If starting with an LS1 T56, the bellhousing pattern is slightly different and I'm not sure the speedway motors adapter would work without modification. However, there is another adapter available that allows an LS1 T56 to bolt to a regular GM bellhousing.

The best setup IMO would be a LT1 T56 with an LS1 input shaft and HTOB conversion. This would allow the use of a thin, lighter FWD flywheel (aluminum ones available too) an a regular pilot bushing. However, keep in mind that if using a FWD flywheel on a RWD block the starter mounting will need to be changed since the FWD flywheel has a 1/2" smaller diameter. Both RWD and FWD flywheels have the same pressure plate bolt pattern.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Pilot bushing/bearing may need to be addressed, or does that measure up?

This is interesting to me as well. We are about to resurrect the Firebird and are weighing options right now as the auto is probably not going to stay.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

For a pilot bushing I would just go to rock auto and find out the inner diameter of the supra bushing and the outer diameter of a 60*V6 bushing. Also consider how long the input shaft is on the transmission. It shouldn't be too expensive to have one made if you can't make it yourself.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Well I finally finished bolting my T56 to my 3500. I used:
LT1 T56/bellhousing (bellhousing was ground in a few places for clearance)
Speedway Motors TH-350 adapter
3.4L 4th-gen Flywheel
3.1L RWD clutch (custom splined hub)/pressure plate
3.4L 4th-gen pilot bushing dimensions, twice as long (custom, could be shorter, I'd go 10mm longer than stock if doing this again)
McLeod HTOB with back side trimmed down a few mm

I have pics of everything if anyone is interested.

But then I ran into a snag. I found out that cars running 10s in the 1/4 are supposed to have an SFI-approved bellhousing. I thought about it a bit and this is what I came up with:
1) Have a custom bellhousing made - VERY pricey (guessing)
2) Use an off-the shelf LT1 SFI bellhousing and modify it

For obvious reasons option #2 is the most likely.
Since the Lakewood and McLeod bellhousings have a backing plate in the design, I'm thinking it might be possible to have the V6 bellhousing pattern drilled into the backing plate and use it as an adapter plate, then ditch the Speedway Motors plate. From my research it seems like the Lakewood backing plate is about 1/8" thick, same as the Speedway Motors plate.
I'm mostly concerned about starter clearance as I don't want to have to grind out an area for the starter. OTOH, it might be possible to drill the other side of the block for a starter or maybe even mount a starter on the mid-plate.

Obviously I'd have to figure out something for the flywheel as well but IMO the bellhousing is more important.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I would love to see some pictures of this.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Well, if you insist .

Here's the HTOB (McLeod) before trimming):

and after:


Notice that the rubber o-ring that seats the HTOB on the input shaft collar is still completely in-tact.

Pic of the extended pilot bushing (because the LT1 T56's input shaft is so annoyingly short):

When I had it made they put a step in it so I know it's seated evenly (the part sticking out of the crank has a slightly larger diameter). I had them copy the dimensions of a stock 4th-gen 3.4L pilot bushing, which cost me $3 to purchase.

Pic of Speedway Motors adapter plate. Which, might I add, is very reasonably priced compared to many other adapter plates on the market.


Mods required to make to engine block and bellhousing:

Had to grind an area for the 1 countersink bolt to seat on the block properly, also, minor clearancing for the bolt for bellhousing-adapter (bottom bolt). Not shown but minor grinding was needed to clear the SBC dowel pin as well.

This shows the less minor grinding needed to clear the bottom bellhousing-adapter bolt on the driver's side

I guess I didn't take a picture of it but I also needed to grind down the V6's dowels so that they wouldn't protrude past the adapter plate. Also not shown is some grinding on the inside of the bellhousing for clearance of one of the adapter-block bolts.

This is the minor clearance needed in the bellhousing for a FWD starter and FWD flywheel (very minimal):


Continued with next post...

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

However if using a RWD flywheel on a FWD block with a FWD starter, a 14mm shim is needed so this is how much I had to clearance for it:

Probably could have gotten away with a little less but it doesn't matter anymore since I need an SFI bellhousing anyway. If using a RWD block then I don't think there would be any clearancing necessary since the LT1 bellhousing has a pocket on the passenger's side anyway.

Pic of the 3.4L RWD flywheel vs. the LT1 flywheel:

A V6 RWD flywheel was required to avoid changing out the input shaft to an LS1-style. Even though the V6 flywheel doesn't come out as far, no shims were required to get complete input shaft engagement of the clutch:

(shown with flywheel and clutch setup resting against the HTOB)

Mandatory pic of the clutch:


This pic shows how the HTOB is pretty much the perfect distance from the pressure plate:

It almost looks touching in the picture but it spins freely from the pressure plate.

HTOB on the trans:


And some pics of the transmission fully bolted up:



And a mandatory pic of the engine

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

So in the end I pieced together a lot of information to find a combo that bolts up and would appear works. I'm not sure anyone has actually attempted this before, but LS1 T56s have been adapted to 3800s a few times now. Obviously I haven't driven the car yet, and probably won't for another two or three months.

Overall, cost isn't much more than swapping a T56 onto a V8; the adapter is $70+shipping, HTOB is the most expensive part at $360 or so, but clutches and flywheels for the V6 are cheaper than LT1 equivalents (at least in Canada). Pilot bushing was another $45 to have one made plus $3 for them to copy the stock dimensions. Obviously there is no off-the shelf twin-plate clutch if you wanted to have a very streetable and long-lasting clutch. The other option that would probably cost about the same in the end would be to have a custom flywheel made with the V6 crank flange and LT1 PP bolt pattern and keep the pull-style clutch. In that case though you're probably looking at a custom starter mount since the LT1 flywheels are IIRC 2" larger in diameter.

Other than that, the normal T56 stuff applies; crossmember will need to be changed, stock driveshaft and torque arm bolt up. If you're not making custom motor mounts like I am and don't have solid mounts I'm pretty sure the 1/8" adapter plate wouldn't require new mounts. I'm going to try the LT1 master cylinder at first and see how it behaves with the HTOB.

Gear ratios probably aren't ideal for a V6 unless you have 4.11s or shorter in the rear (I have 4.11s currently). The fuel economy would probably be insanely good with 3.27s or something haha...

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

You are doing great things there.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Just to update my progress I ended up modifying an SFI LT1 bellhousing for my project.
I inserted the SBC dowels through the adapter plate and backin plate and copied the adapter plate bolt pattern onto the SFI backing plate. For the V6 dowel holes I drilled them a little small and used a dremel to get them exactly the right size.

Since the flywheel was rubbing the backing plate slightly after install, I used a small shim for the flywheel. Also, since the bellhousing depth was slightly different, I ended up making a 1/4" transmission shim that I installed between the transmission and the bellhousong to get the correct distance from HTOB to pressure plate fingers.

For the clutch line I cut the LT1 braided line and installed a Russell -4 powerflex hose end, then used a -4 flare union to connect to the HTOB. I just finished bleeding the hydraulics today and the clutch is disengaging fine.

I have a few more things to finish before starting up the engine but so far so good!