I originally bought a '89 Pontiac Firebird 2.8 Liter v6 with the intention of eventually swapping in a v8. However, after seeing how crazy you guys are with the v6's, and evaluating my own sanity, it was clear I was destined to join you all. However, the sheer amount of information on this board has me absolutely amazed and confused. Can anyone recommend some starting modifications for me to work on? So far I've replaced the spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap, and transmission support. I'm trying to go for a more agile style built, a car built more for hugging corners than it is for straight-line speed. Links would be helpful, since most of the ones in the stickies appear to be dead.

 

The V6 sets lower & further back than a V8. So, it has a lower center of gravity & better front to rear balance making it a better handling vehicle in corners. Plus, a V6 gets better gas mileage than a V8. I'm not knocking V8s. If someone gives me a good running formula or Trans Am, I'll keep it and enjoy driving it.

I've set my bird up to handle corners and it is a blast to drive. First, I installed new front struts & rear shocks. Old ones were wore out. Everyone has an opinion on which performance brand is best. Many use adjustable. Those are very expensive. My first set were not performance; front, Gabriel struts, rear, Monroe shocks.

Next I installed a wonder bar (steering brace) and 36 mm front sway bar and 23 mm rear which seems to be the right balance. This mod made the most difference in handling. I've raced rice burners on mountainous winding switch back roads and, so far, they disappear in my rear view mirror after the 1st couple of sharp corners. My tires were Khumos and did not have that much tread on them. Then I found a set of non-adjustable Tokico struts & shocks on sale and installed. They helped handling a little, but not as much as the larger sway bars.

Since my car is my daily driver and, now, I am putting on lots of highway miles, I bought a set of Michelin Defender high mileage tires. These are not performance tires but grip well on dry or wet roads. They also have low rolling resistance and I get better gas mileage. Plus they make much less road noise than the Khumos. How they designed a quiet tire that could both grip well and have long life is a mystery to me.

It is a joy to drive such a good handling and stable vehicle. Your 2.8 & my 3.1 have piles of low end torque which adds to the fun.

Here is a link to my post on the wonder & sway bars: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-handling.html

 

If your car has high mileage chances are most of the bushings along with your shocks/springs are probably worn quite a bit. Just doing a rebuild on the suspension would improve your handling significantly. My plan for a budget suspension build is to replace all the bushings, get some good stock style shocks like KYB's, stock springs, and some Sway bars off an IROC along with the wonder bar. I don't go to the track or anything but I sure love giving my car some hell around the corners

 

For the engine you can do a cam, 1.6 lifters, headers, are all availible for a reasonable price. If you care most about handling I wouldnt do much more than this. Turbo or a top end swap is probably more work than you wanna do for power.

For a solid handling car you should be looking into a wonder bar, subframe connectors, and a strut tower brace in addition to thicker swaybars and some good shocks/struts.

 

Luckily, I live in Vegas, so this fabled "Weather" you speak of is of no concern. I'm going to look into the wonder bar's and shocks first though, thanks guys. I'm still quite new to car modification, so all of this is new to me. Actually, the main reason I'm actually doing these modifications is actually to help teach me more about it. Also, I have a small collection of funds set aside for this build, so luckily I'l be able to afford almost all wanted modification. Also, couold someone describe to me exactly what these wonder bars do?

 

Start with a FULL tune-up first. You've done half of it, but finish it off with new trans fluid (ATF only!), rear end oil (who knows how old it is), air filter, PCV valve. And possibly some new gaskets, since by now the valve covers and crank seals probably leak.

Basically, rebuild the entire suspension first. Chances are, since the car is 24 years old, going on 25, the rubber bushings are shot. Put in polyurethane and never worry about them again (except for possible squeaking). New shocks and struts, bigger sway bars (or add a rear bar if you don't already have it for some reason), wonderbar brace (and a STB if you can), and subframe connectors. You may want different springs as well.

Then the usual engine mods... Cam, rockers, freer intake, headers and 2.5" exhaust. Port and polish the heads if you want and the intake. Delete the AIR pump (the thing under the alternator).

If you want anything above that, then it's either turbocharging or major surgery on the engine...

 

In addition to above, I'd consider a LSD, if you don't already have one, and some better tires.

 

If its not a DD and destin for perfect MPGs Id look at larger rear end gears. You will definitly notice the difference. 3.73's Will really pep it up if you get a lsd to match it.

But first and formost evaluate the car. Preform a good tune up and then figure out what you can do, how much you can spend, and how fast you want to go.

 

Our cars don't have a frame; they are uni-body construction. Thus, the chassis will flex. The steering box places a lot of flex on the chassis were it is attached to the chassis. It can eventually tear loose & is a costly repair. Consider it a GM engineering screw up.

A wonder bar or steering brace is a short bar that attaches to the chassis at the front sway bar U brackets that hold the sway bar to the chassis. So you first put the wonder bar against the chassis and then the sway bar is attached with its U bracket bolts also going thru the wonder bar holes which holds both the wonder bar and sway bar to the chassis. The wonder bar firms up the chassis so the steering box won't tear itself out. You really do need to buy a wonder bar. I bought the cheapest one I could find which was a BMR & also a good brand name.

It saves time to install the wonder bar at the same time you install a new sway bar. But, it really is a 2 person job to install both at the same time. If you read my post on my installing experience, you'll notice I dropped them on my head a couple of times when I did it alone.

Here is a more complete explanation posted by JamesC:

"The problem is common to our cars.

The following is from How to Tune and Modify your 1982-1998 Camaro by Jason Scott:

"The problem stems from high forces transmitted from the steering box to the chassis, especially under low-speed cornering, such as when maneuvering around a shopping mall parking lot. Fat performance tires present a great deal of resistance at low speeds, which imparts considerable stress into the steering system, and ultimately attempts to rip the steering box from its mounting surface--especially during "full-lock" turns, where steering torque is greatest. Over time, these forces weaken the chassis surface around the steering box and can result in torn metal.

"Whether the chassis is weakened or torn at the steering box, the result is the same--steering actions are delayed while the chassis flexes, leading to unresponsive and erratic steering. Ironically, though the damage stems from low-speed steering, the resulting problem is far more serious at high speeds than low ones.

"It is possible to repair the damaged area, though the best solution is to avoid the problem in the first place by installing a brace that reinforces the steering box mounting area."

The brace mentioned in the last paragraph is a steering box brace, aka, the Wonderbar.

JamesC"

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...front-end.html

 

cheronobyl,
FYI - I noticed a 23mm used rear sway bar for $80 shipping included on Ebay. It's a good price, but you would still need to buy end links and polyurethane bushings. You might also need to purchase a couple of new bushing brackets. If you do, I suggest brackets with grease fittings. You do need to used special polyurethane grease for these bushings.

Here is the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-1992-rear-Sway-Bar-23-MM-Firebird-Camaro-/330898573775?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0b1789cf&vxp=mtr

 

Thank's for the link, it's quite possible I will buy it. Just to clarify, though, it appears as if the part is off of a camaro. Did this come stock on just the higher editions?

 

Also, this is the steering brace you guys are talking about correct? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/up...model/firebird

 

Yes, that is the wonder bar or steering brace. It is attached to the chassis by bolts through the bushing brackets of the front sway bar.

 

Higher power Firebirds & Camaros had larger front & rear sway bars. So you may find used parts at your local junk yard for much less than new price.

For front & rear sway bars, I recommend buying new brackets with grease fittings & poly bushings with grease holes & grooves so you can occasionally lubricate the bushings. I have 2 grease guns. One for greasing the steering & tie rod assemblies. The other has the special grease for polyurethane bushings. I'd also get end links with poly bushings (last longer). Here is a link with an example of front brackets & bushings that can be greased:

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...-Bushings.html

 

Things will be quite rusty under the car. Plan on breaking off or cutting off some bolts and end links.

 

The car has lived in the desert it's whole life, spending most of it in an aircraft hanger, so luckily there is nearly no rust on the car, but I will keep that in mind. Going on a junkyard run either today or tomorrow to look for those sway bars though.

 

Any future plans for the engine once you get the suspention up to date??

 

If you will be carving corners I also highly recommend to ditch the stock seats. I just got a set of 95 STI RA seats from a friend and two bolt holes actually perfectly line up with the 3rd gen rails. I made some adapters for the other two holes with a hack saw and a drill press lol. They look and feel incredible. The stock seats are just atrocious in comparison.

I see sets of these for $150-250 locally so they're pretty cheap, plus they have holes that can be used for a 4-pt harness.

 

I just installed seats from a 1995 Camaro into my Firebird. For me, the driver's side matched all the bolts. But, the passenger side only matched to 2 bolts. I had to make a couple of minor fabrications to fit the other 2 bolts. You are right that 4th gen seats hold you better carving corners. However, I like that they are so much more comfortable than the stock 3rd gen seats. First time GF rode in the passenger seat, she said it was the best mod I made because seat was so comfortable. Holy crap, all the money I put into the suspension and other mods & repairs and she likes the new seat the best. LOL

 

I am doing the ultimas In my bird, but v6's are a blast to drive after the engine has been updated. For starters, I would get the valve cover gasket set and start from there. They aren't expensive and it would give you a decent look into the upper end of the motor. This will also allow you to clean and inspect most of the fuel delivery components. Done right, it should take about a day to get it all done. And like what has already been said, tune up, fresh fluids etc. And make sure to do preventative maintenance on these motors. If they die, they can be real expensive to rebuild. I had mime machines and modified while it was in the machine shop. Basic machining was $1500 for the whole motor. I had everything modified and it rang out to $3300 after everything was done. I put the motor together so there were no labor charges. Again, built right these cars are fun to drive.

 

4th gen seats are definitely better, but I'm talking about

95 Subaru Impreza WRX STI RA seats . It helps that I've paid nothing for them though.

 

New seats were actually up there on my list. Do you think it would be cheaper to buy cheap 4th gen seats and reupholster or to simply spend more to buy them nice?

 

Other things being equal, it will cost much less to buy a nice set of 4th gen seats. On the other hand, you get to chose the material and pattern if you're paying for a reupholster job. Fortunately, I found a nice set of two tone 4th gen (charcoal & gray) that goes well with my gray interior. However, 4th gen are so comfortable I'd still put them in my car even if they were bright fluoresent orange. ha, ha

 

Nice seats. I like the look. And the price is great. Bet, it took you a while to fabricate mounting brackets.

 

Nope . Took about 15-30 min. with a hack saw and a drill press. The Subie bolt holes are the exact same distance front-rear as the 3rd gen rails, just about 4" farther apart left-right. We actually ended up cutting up an old metal ruler to make the mounts lol.

 

After returning form a road trip to California, I've decided that new seats are a definite must. Are there any seats in particular that may work better for longer trips?

 

4th gen seats come with a high back (no adjustable headrest) and low back (adjustable headrest). Mine are high back, but it is really a matter of taste and/or cost. If you are driving by a used car lot and see a 4th gen, ask if you can sit in it. See if you like the fit and comfort.

My bird is a daily driver, but I often drive 200-300 miles some days. I plan to drive up to New York this fall, about a 9 hour drive. I usually drive my Scion, but GF wants to take the Firebird to show off to her mechanic nephew. I'm don't foresee any extra discomfort with the 4th gen seats. Again, more comfortable than 3rd gen seats.

 

I was able to grab a 23 mm rear sway bar at the junkyard today for 18.00 out the door, which was truly a steal. I'm installing it along with zerked polyurethane bushings and end links tomorrow. I've got a steering brace on the way, and I'm currently looking into shocks. I want to get adjustable, any suggestions?

 

Good find on the sway bar and great price. As far as adjustable shocks, Koni (yellow) seems to be a favorite. However, others like Bilstein, KYB, and Tokico. If price is a consideration, I did a quick search and found Tokico Illumina adjustable shocks for $134.00 each and Koni Yellow for $260.00 each.

 

I'm probably not going to pay 1000 dollars for the koni yellows, but the lumina's seem more in my range. I'l look into them.

 

FYI - I noticed that Tire Rack has rear KYB AGX adjustable for $97 each and rear Koni yellow for $100 each. However, front struts will always cost a lot more than rear shocks. At the same site, front KYB AGX adjustable struts are $140 each and front Koni Yellow struts are $218 each. If you are going with adjustable, it is a good idea to use the same brand front and rear because they are designed to work together.

If the cost is going to be too much for you right now, you could put in a set of premium non-adjustable struts/shocks which will cost much less. Later on, when you have more cash, you could upgrade. It's also possible you may be satisfied with non-adjustable premium and can use the money of other goodies.

 

Logging into Tire Rack right now. Those prices on the yellows are in my price range, despite them coming out to over half my initial investment in the car. How do the AGX's compare to the yellows? On a seperate note, I have seen alot of people making better air intakes for their car. After examining the paltry one currently present in mine, I plan to build one as well. My question is what do I have to do in regards to the Mass Airflow Sensor? Is it some form of computer programming or can it be bypassed?

 

Also, a friend of mine said that I would have to replace the forward a arms to switch to shocks like this. Is this correct?

 

Bushings have all been changed, 23 mm sway bar now in the rear, steering brace installed. Next up, shocks and springs.

 

Never heard of that before

 

Okay, I figured he was wrong on that one.

 

I was able to pull the seats out of a 4th generation firebird today. Going to clean them up and install them soon, but I can already tell they are going to feel way better. Now, I think it's time to focus on the engine. Thing is, I am completely lost here. Recommendations?

 

First, if you have not already done so, follow Maverick's advice: "Start with a FULL tune-up first. You've done half of it, but finish it off with new trans fluid (ATF only!), rear end oil (who knows how old it is), air filter, PCV valve. And possibly some new gaskets, since by now the valve covers and crank seals probably leak.

Then the usual engine mods... Cam, rockers, freer intake, headers and 2.5" exhaust. Port and polish the heads if you want and the intake. Delete the AIR pump (the thing under the alternator)."

I'm not sure about your year car, but look at the air filter box. Mine had a rubber snorkel out the side that narrowed the intake air hole down from 3 inches at the box to a one inch intake. I drilled out the rivets attaching the snorkel and removed it. You could also drill several holes in the air filter box to let in even more air. It's easy and, even better, it's FREE.

Just removing the snorkel made a noticeable difference in engine power; MORE AIR = MORE POWER.

Also, check your catalytic converter. If it is the original, replace it with a high flow cat.

If it was me, I'd drive it for a while and have some fun experiencing the new feel with your suspension & air intake & cat mods. Then start thinking about what engine mods. to consider or replacing with a 3.4L.

If you are not experienced tearing down an engine & putting it back together, I strongly advise you don't even try without having lots of time and experienced help.

Also, replacing an engine with another, even with the same engine mounts, is not as easy as one would think. There are always some problems to be solved and fabrications to be made. Again, having experience or an experienced friend can be critical.

 

I have a ported and bead blasted 3.4L intake manifold (will fit a 2.8L and 3.1L) and a 2.8L lower plenum. They would be a great jump start to your build.

 

cheronobyl,

I have a set of ported cylinder-heads that project89 did up for me a while back. I'm not using them, so I'd be more than willing to make a deal with you. PM me if you're interested.

 

I've been in a standstill lately as I was hit on friday and have had to deal with insurance ever since.