I also rescaled the VE table from this



To this



Hoping I wont have to lean it out much more than rescaling did, but if I do its no biggie.

If the spark table is good enough, with room to grow, hopefully I can scale that table up one value at a time, and tweak where necessary.

 

That is a very conservative SA table, you got 18 degrees at only 1.5 pounds of boost...

 

Thats how I would like to start out for now, I think Marks table goes up to 22* IIRC in boost. I would like to get the off boost timing taken care of. I didnt really mess too much with the values above 100kpa, though I did bump them up a few degrees. I want to work on the drivability aspect off boost first if I can, then work on the boost numbers.

Ill never see over 166kpa with this turbo, anything really over 12 and it acts like a blow dryer, lol.

 

Remember that 100-KPa is 0 vacuum, that is where you want your total timing, and it should be a tad higher than 25 degrees. I would put it in the low 30's, that is a safe area for iron heads. Once in boost, starting in the 110-KPa cells, you'll back off gradually, no lower than 19-degrees, especially under 12-psi of boost pressure, because there is honestly no reason to go any lower than that in your spark advance...

 

Ok, thanks for the tip Rob. Ill go tweak the timing table some more and post a pic. I know its supposed to be all in around 3000 rpm or so. So ill bring it to around 30* at 100kpa and leave it around the low 30s lower in the kpa and the higher rpms. How does the timing curve look though? I can post up a contour plot without the numbers if you want.

Edit- my max boost will be 9.5 psi or so, I wont go any higher than that.

 

It's looking great, really looking forward to some more videos too, and I think the hood came out really awesome. 9.5 psi is a good/wise starting point...

 

Thanks The warping looks much worse further out though.

Right around 10psi seems to be as efficient as itll be if im reading the compressor map right. If I want to push any more boost Ill have to upgrade to the T3/T4 Mark is using, then I could dial down the boost and make the same power as I will with this setup when its dialed in. But Im not going all out unless I get another thirdgen being this one needs to be my DD again.

There is only turbo lag in first gear till the turbine spools up, after that its in boost at every shift. Though I dont expect much from a stock 700r4 with the TV plunger mod. Though that one mod gives me higher line pressures. One day I'll get it rebuilt. Course Im also not going to beat on it either.

 

How about this?



And a contour plot.



Did I go too far or does that look good?

 

I think that it is ok and conservitive to add. Just add in a hair at a time if you want, in your areas that you will be at(like only a half a degree at a time). You knock sensor works correct...right? Have you tried it out to make sure it does pick up knock? For 10psi or so anything more then 23 degrees or so wont really help you go any faster, at least it didnt on my iron head set up. Thats why that timing table i sent you was like it was....it was the best timing I ever had at the track considering I was dialing in 11.5 Afrs for all boost above 6psi and 12.0 afrs under the 6psi areas.

Just keep a eye on that. When you start adding in timing keep in mind that it will usually make your car leaner...but don't add fuel and timing in at the same time without datalogging each change first unless you really know what your doing.

 

Much much better...

 

No knock sensor yet, thats why I am trying to rely on you guys for feedback. Especially with you previously running the iron heads. I kind of tried to read your table and interpolate some off of it, but I decided to use your table as a sort of guideline. Slowly Im getting the hang of it but I have yet to try it on the car till I renew my license and plates.

Thanks Rob. Just hope my car likes it and I didnt scale too far down on the VE. Ill find out soon enough though.

 

Are you running r42st ac delco plugs?

 

Yea, not sure if the are the st's but they are the r42 delcos

Edit- if you meant ts then yea. Gapped to .025

 

Opps yea I ment ts. Damm phone...

Im sure that youll be fine with the timing you have but get a knock sensor on there asap if you drive it. Do you need one? I believe I have a few extras in the garage at least I think I do.....

 

Yea I do, just havent had the funds to grab one.

 

back timing off from 32 to 30 , and change the top ve row to 175kpa

or delete the 80 kpa row and drop the other rows down , and add a 175kpa row between 150 and 200

timing in the 40-60 kpa and 2000-3000 rpm range will prolly get bumped by about 10* for best fuel milage under cruising actually that all dpends on if ur locking the converter and what rpm ur crusing at at the speedlimit were u are

 

Ill drop the 200kpa row to 175-180. You talking about the VE or SA table?

Also why drop timing to 30 from 32? 32 should be plenty conservative to start

 

yes drop the 200 line in both ve and spark to 175
because changes in the timing table will make a change int he afr, and u made changes to both the ve and spark at the same time , so u may end up with some wildy lean or rich areas.bringing it back 2* will minimize the possibility of detonation or ping if it does happen to run lean in those areas


the thing to rember when making changes is to do one table at a time i.e spark table change, then datalog it , then adjust ve table, datalog it then change spark etc etc etc , never change both tables at once

 

I know your technically not to change both tables at the same time, cause changing timing will change fueling, just trying to get a better starting point. The VE table was super rich all around, so I scaled it by .98 to bring all the values in the table down a tad. Also the SA table needed so much work, I figured Id start a table from scratch using Marks iron head table as a guide, but leaving it conservative enough where it still needed tweaking and wasnt too extreme.

I wouldn't try to change both at the same time after getting these initial tables done. Basically Im using a different starting point, which is good cause it means Im picking up knowledge on the tuning, but regardless Ill back off total timing a bit. I kept the original tables so I have a fallback if I need it. Though all the datalogs and all but the final NA tune have been deleted.

So I have the final NA tune in case I need it and the original VE and SA tables. I do have a backup incase something isnt right.

Ill tweak the tables before I burn them though, renewing my license and plates tomorrow after taking the boat out, so I should have a log and some updates tomorrow. New oil return flange is already on the car, so I should just be able to burn and go once it warms up.

 

I think a new knock sensor is arround 25-30 bucks at AZ. I know I have extra one that works I could send ya for like 10 bucks or something. Or hit up a JY and get one off a 3.1L for cheep. Last thing I wana see is you wound the car because you cant see if its knocking and not having any knock retard control on the SA.

 

Yea thats not gonna happen anytime soon. Went to renew my license, and find out New Jersey suspended a NJ license I never had. So It wont be on the road anytime soon. They didnt suspend it until a week before my renewal. They pulled this same **** when I tried to get my FL license in 08.

Ill update when its taken care of.

 

O damm. Sorry to hear it bud.

 

That state has been ****ing me every chance they get since I left.

 

Lol, that's FL for you. I guess NJ too.

 

Nah, its not florida, its new jersey thats doing it. Ive got no problems with florida, its why I moved here.

 

Well screw it. Just because I dont have a license currently doesnt mean I cant work on the car. Besides, the cops in my small town wont give me crap for taking it up and down the road, its the county cops that I have to look out for.

Right now Im working on finalizing the intake. The hole in the intake up top will have an aluminum bung welded to it with a plug for the hole. This will be used when I pick up another IAT sensor for pre-turbine readings. The hole on the bottom(which cant be seen) may possibly be used for meth injection in the future, as long as it can be put pre-turbine, and doesnt have to be put post-turbine. For now, that hole will be plugged.



Also, I will be working on a "hood" I guess you would call it, to cover the filter to prevent underhood air from being sucked in. And cleaning up the hole in the battery tray.

Ill have updates, and maybe, just maybe I may have a video in a couple days.

 

I would Get it out of the engine bay like so ... My iat temps are always within 10* ambient and 1-3* cruising at 50mph

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

 

I have as far as I know the biggest cone filter they make, If I take that brace out, it sticks out the bottom of the car, lol. So the brace is in the way, and I cant quite angle it to fit properly, so im making an airbox to seal the top from the engine bay. It will pull from under the car regardless though.

With the filter up against that brace, it still sticks out above the battery tray a little bit. No biggie, ill make it work.

 

dont inject meth pre turbo with an intercooler , its a big *** explosion waiting to happen

without an intercooler its not nearly as bad

 

Even ghetto meth? As in blue washer fluid?

Yes its ghetto, but its got meth in it. Also its cheap to buy a gallon of it and even cheaper to reuse the washer bottle and pump. Meth injection on the cheap.

If no, then what about water injection? Just trying to think of a future use of that second hole in the intake tube.

 

blue washer fluid still burns , biggest fear of using thaat stuff pre turbo is that it falls out of suspension and puddles up in the intercooler

 

Ah ok, I get it. So only if its injected after the intercooler. In that case the nozzle/line would need a check valve in it. I was trying to get around that by doing it pre-turbine, but I guess it wont work that way.

 

If you can find methenol at a race track its cheep too. 2.49 a gal for m1 at my local tracks which has no lubes in it. You can always delute it by weight if you want to.

Install a check valve right before the nozzle so that the line always has a little pressure in it. My aem one holds about 5psi of pressure before it cracks opens up.

 

So I know it really has nothing to do with the thread, aside from not having a license to drive the car. But in making all these phone calls to get the license taken care of, I find out my license has been suspended since 2010, and I have had a warrant for the same amount of time.

Guess Florida doesnt care too much about New Jersey, cause when I got pulled over, neither was ever mentioned, and after the ticket was issued, the cop told me to have a nice day. Interesting.

Its gonna cost about $200 to get it back, so hopefully Ill be able to come up with that soon.

 

Just looking for some feedback on this revised spark table. I scaled it back a little, pulled timing because as was previously mentioned, I do not have a knock sensor.

Pulled max timing from 32° to 30°, and backed some of the other cells down as well. Also switched the upper KPA row from 200 to 180.



And a contour plot



If all looks good then I will wait to mess with the VE table, and use this spark table as a starting point instead of the one I am currently using. Once I transfer this table over I will see how rich it runs, and if it runs equally rich all over as it did before, then I will scale the VE table down in increments of .01 until its close but still rich, then fine tune the different parts of the table. IE, idle, off boost, on boost etc...

 

Also small update on the oil return leak I was having. I havent taken it out yet, but after moving it around the yard the new oil drain flange doesnt show any leaks, even after sitting like the old one did.

 

And while I'm at it, this is the best I could get with the intake.



Working on making a lid for it by adding sides and a back to this piece of steel.



And switching the aluminum bung to the bottom hole because the lid will block the top hole from having a AIT sensor in it. Then using the silicone plug to block the top hole.

Then if I can finally seal the leaks in the washer bottle I can finally put that back in, if I can remember where I put it, lol.

 

Okay, heres a question for you guys. AIT sensor is in between the IC and TB, it was wet when I pulled it out, looked and smelled like fuel, but could have been condensation. Pretty sure it wasnt oil as I pulled a few plugs and they looked good. A little black only on the gap side, but completely dry, and the other side of the insulator is still white.

Chasing ghosts? I assume nothing to worry about. About to put that revised spark table in the MS and fire it up.

 

My first aluminum weld.



I only did tacs cause I was too worried about blowing through. And constantly used a stainless brush to clean before each weld.

 

Don't tac weld aluminum like that, that creates a potentially porous weld. Getting a non porous weld when laying a bead is hard enough.

 

well i can honestly say ive seen worse , get some scrap aluminum and practice

u will prolly want to put some epoxy or something around those welds to seal up any pinholes.

or grind them down and try again

 

I practiced with an extra piece of the same aluminum intake. Practice welds came out almost perfect. The thicker aluminum bung was sinking too much heat. Thats also on a vacuum section of intake, not a pressure side. Right behind the filter where Ill put a second AIT sensor when I get another one. Its just got the stainless plug in it for now.

 

So I loaded up that revised spark table and I didnt really have to press the pedal to keep it running but once after cranking. It started going lean and stumbling, so I tapped it once to richen it up and it picked back up on its own after that.

Before I had idle AFR right at 14.7, with the new spark table it went back to 13.1~.7. So I think I should be able to start backing the VE table down once I either get my dad to drive it for me while I tune, or I get my license back the beginning of next month.

Still no oil leaks that I can see aside from a tiny bit of seepage by the threads of the restrictor. Maybe a tiny drop from idling till it was completely warmed up. Oh, and the passenger side valve cover still

Also need to stick a couple pieces of electrical tape around the base of the PCV valve, it keeps backing out of the valve cover grommet cause the hose I used on the check valve pulls up a little bit. It never comes completely out though.

 

I got the stalling on hot start issue resolved. I am thinking about making the venture into EGO correction, made an initial AFR target table.



Keep in mind that this is an initial table, it will probably be tweaked before I start using ego correction, but I think they are good starting targets.

What do you think guys?

 

I don't know anything about ECM tuning, but I am glad to see you're getting it to run better.

 

Little by little. I just can't believe its taking more than a week to get questions answered on the ms forums.

I have switched over to using tunerstudio instead of megatune, just wish I had the 50 bucks to register it so I could use autotune. I have learned a great deal about tuning and know now how to dial in the acceleration enrichments and the manifold air temp correction table. But I can't do much with those until that VE table is tuned and smoothed out and I can't exactly take the car out for a drive.

Since I am having such a hard time getting an answer over there I will ask it here and see if anyone will have any input.

Would the difference between falling edge and rising edge for the spark trigger be 10°? I am at the point where I want to figure out the reason that the car is 10° off, instead of bumping the dizzy one tooth to make up the difference. I mean it runs the same timing wise as it did before, I just want to square away the base issue instead of compensating for it.

 

So today I was getting a log for Matt Cramer on the MS forums of the stalling issue on cold and hot start. When I started it cold, to my surprise it stumbled to 18AFR, but didn't stall like usual. So I let it warm up then shut it off to heatsoak for a hot start. Of course it wouldn't start at all. Should the cranking timing be .9 degrees? Doesn't seem right to me. After I came inside and loaded the log up for the forums, I went back out and cranked it and it started, but didnt want to run unless I ran it at 2000rpms; any lower would lean out to 18+AFR and stumble.

Also found another oil leak at the start of the feed line, can't tell for sure where its coming from, but its in the general area of the T by the oil filter. The one where the stock oil sending unit went. Coming off of that is the feed line, and also the copper line for my mechanical oil gauge. Leaks a handful of drops on first start, once it burns off the crossover pipe, it doesn't seem to leak anymore.

Soon I will pick up 6ft of 1/4 inch steel braided line for it. If not I am going to do 1/4 inch copper line.

 

Won't have any further updates until I get some hard copper line for the oil feed. Not going to use anything rubber, regardless if its rated for that usage. The fuel injection clamps I was using because I wanted better clamping, wound up pinching the hose and that's where the leak was. So I cut the end of the hose off and put 2 regular hose clamps on and it leaks even worse now than it did before. So its going to be replaced with solid copper 1/4 ID line. $.99 a foot and I just have to grab the fittings for it.

After that. It won't leak at all.

Also started using VEAnalyze, Pretty happy with the results thus far only using it at Idle. Getting perfect AFRs at idle. Also found out that the priming pulse was too low, and afterstart enrichment was off; so now it starts perfectly without stumbling or stalling. After that I saw the smoke from the oil leak, looked under the car, and saw the oil streaming out so I shut it off.

 

crap sorry i aint been around man , been busy trying to get my car ready for boneville
how did after start end up being turned off?

 

Is ok Dave, I can't really drive it till I get my license back next week I'm just trying to work some bugs out. I'm thinking the switch from megatune to tunerstudio reset some settings, so I went through everything and made sure settings were back the way they were.

Picked up some 1/4 inch copper line today with some 90° elbow flare fittings. Going to do double flares on both ends of it. Did a crapload of research on using copper line so I also grabbed some adel clamps, going to do a loop in the middle of the copper line, and also going to bend it as little as possible. Instead of going behind the motor, I will go to the front, figuring out the routing as I go. That is subject to change when I start on the routing tomorrow.

Other than that, I just can't wait to drive it again and get the VE table taken care of. I will also know whether or not the SA table is alright. If the SA is good then I won't touch it until I invest in a knock sensor and get some spark knock retard system in place. At most I will only shoot for 15-15.5 AFR under cruise and save the rest for getting a knock sensor. I will keep low timing and more fuel under boost.