ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I finally made time to get these bad boys on. Install was a snap, just like a C4/LS1 upgrade. I was running C4s, and although I was (am) very happy with them, I wanted to try the 13" HDs out. I haven't road tested them yet but I will tomorrow. They feel nice and tight and look GREAT! These will really fill up an open-style wheel and fit my stock RS wheels fine.

For more info on this upgrade, take a look in this thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=227200

OK, here's what my C4 Standard brakes looked like before the swap. (Sorry, no pics of the parts before install...I forgot...) Please note the gap seen in the first pic between the rotor and the wheel. This will change.

EDIT: I guess I should give a little background on the parts needed to do this swap. This upgrade is similar to the 12" C4s I installed this time last year but is a bit different. What you need: 1LE modded spindles, 1/2" overall thickness C4 pattern bracket, bearings and hubs from 1LE/Performance package rotors, 13" C4 HD rotors and brake calipers/carriers.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

First, I removed the C4 12" brakes and "old" hub. I will use a 1LE hub for the HDs. Just a note here: I kept my 3/8" stainless brackets for the install as they will work fine. The correct bracket thickness is 1/2" for the HDs, but I just used a 1/8" washer to move the carrier out to where I needed it.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Installing the 1LE hub. Note the two styles of spindle nuts here. I changed over to the " '92" style, which uses a 2 piece nut instead of the thicker one. This style allows you to not have to back the nut out for the cotter pin holes to line up. With all the slots in the nut cover, you barely have to move the nut at all to insert the pin. Note the nut cover lying on top of the hub.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

nice work...still like my baer. what did the setup set you back?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Install the rotor and caliper carrier. I painted the center part of the rotor to keep it from rusting.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Kandied sneaking in there on me.... Baer makes good stuff, but I can do the same for less...been talked about before. I'll take a guess that it's way less than $500 for me...I do all my own machine work. I didn't even have to change out spindles, brackets either. I got the brakes (calipers/carriers) and new Raybestos rotors and 1LE hubs, that's all. I even used my old Russel lines with no problems.

OK, Here's something I learned about this swap...You will need the correct HD retaining pins. Note in the pic below. The pin on the left is the HD pin, the right is the Standard pin. There's a difference in where the E-clip groove is placed, obviously the HD pin has a greater length from the nub on the end and the groove since the carrier is thicker in that area.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Install caliper, bleed and go.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

under 500 you say....that's pretty good. what about adapting that type of setup to the rear?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Here's how the Motormite (Napa) studs sit after being tightened down, plenty of thread engagement.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

All done. Now take a look at the gap I mentioned between the rotor and wheel in my first post...It's gone. I can see about 1/2" clearance on this setup between the wheel and caliper.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

The major concern I had was rubbing on my new paint up front, and I thought I'd even have to run rear wheels up front (which I still may do). But after getting her back on all fours, the only rubbing I can see is inside the wheelwell on the plastic liner, that's it. The wheels may rub under turns and cornering but I won't know until later. It all fits fine. I'm sure I'm done screwing around with the front brakes now.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Back side:

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

These brakes on the rear? Too much time for too little satisfaction, IMO. I'm still running drums on this car . I'll be swapping in my 2.77 9 bolt from my Iroc when I pick up my 3.27 soon, then doing a PBR swap on the 3.27. 12" PBRs will do me fine back there.

Please note: I have "under $500" in them: No machine work, no spindles, brackets, pads, etc. I got the brakes for $125-150 IIRC, new quality rotors, and made my own hubs. I'd look for a comparable complete assembly to go for around $750-800 easy, and well worth it.

Ed

Justins86bird

Are the HD pins the same as the 1LE pins?
I still have a 1LE pin sealed in a GM bag, it has no grooves at all. So everyone, double check them as soon as you get them.

Looks good.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yep, same as 1LE.


Ed

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Great work Ed. It looks like the standard hubs combined with the 3/8" bracket wont work. Also if they will work, does the 5.9" outside diameter still work for the heavy duty rotors?

Dewey316

ed, what is the diffrence in the brackets compared to the standard C4?

(already has C4 brackets )

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Slow, gotta use 1LE hubs. The standard hubs won't allow you to slide the carrier in between the rotor and the bracket. Also, the C4 rotors aren't like LS1 rotors in that they don't have a perfect circle in which the hub must fit, they have more of an open area and I think you can go with a hub as wide as 6" even before you start to hit the taper of the rotor hat.

Dewey, same design as the "old" C4 brackets just 1/2" thick. I kept my old brackets (stainless) and just used a 1/8" thick washer to move the carrier out.

Didn't drive it today...raining and I had other BS to do.


Ed

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

So... beside getting rid of the rotor section of the 1LE hub, is there any other machining needed? It looks like there is a short setion turned just above the face of the hub. Do they come this way?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Just cut the rotor part off and then turn it down to 5.9"-6" or so. Yes, that turned section is just how the rotors came. A different brand may be different. Here's a pic, 1LE on left, my standard test hub on left.

Ed

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

I'm guessing that a spacer on the face of the standard hub is out of the question. So where is everyone getting thier 1LE hubs from, new parts?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

You could make a @ 1/4" spacer and I guess that would work but new hubs (IMO) are the way to go. I only use new parts now, it's not worth it to me to have to clean up old rotors to make them nice. The time I save by using new rotors for hubs is well worth it. Also, they will have new races installed already so I don't have to mess with those either.


Ed

Dewey316

Ed, any chance you could measure the offset of the rotor and then the diffrence between a standard and 1le hub. if swapping ot the HD stuff was just a matter of a the right rotor, and then mounting the caliper, i might consider upgrading

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

It's been covered here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=227200

Difference in the 2 hub styles is .318". It's not as simple as a rotor swap. You need the hub's added offset and then the bracket thickness change.

Ed

Dewey316

ed, why would i need the extra offset, as long as i can get the rotor in the right spot, i should be fine, the next time i get rotors, i am going to get a set of 2piece coleman racing rotors, i can get them built to my specs, so if i know exactly where to locate the rotor, even with my hubs i should be fine.

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Did anyone else hear Pandora's box creaking open? For that matter, can't we try and find some other 13" rotor that has the same bolt pattern as well as the proper offset to fit the standard hub and bracket? Maybe an S-10 rotor? I'm sure someone here can get access to the specs for most rotors and to a quick comparison. Although I like the idea of using a 1LE rotor as the hub, it is just a little bit wasteful to cut apart a brand new part. I mean you're not even using the same studs for that matter.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ed, just trying to be cheap and use the hubs I almost have ready now.

Dewey316

SlowTA, i am using S10 rotors as hubs on my car, i guess i probably need to see how they compare to the stock ones. but i am pretty sure they are the same as the standard 10.5" rotors.

MrDude_1

it opened loooong ago when someone came up with the idea of using the rotors to make cheap hubs.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I know a custom rotor can be put together, and I've looked into it. I talked to Todd at TCE Performance and he could get me the 13" rotors I needed, with the offsets I wanted to fit the standard hubs and bracket dimentions for $480/pair, now add that to the cost of the rest of it and you're right back up there with Baer pricing, which is what I wanted to avoid in the first place.

Dewey touched on it: You can obviously have rotors custom made to fit what you needed but it's gonna cost you more. I've put it together so that a guy can buy parts off the shelf or from GM and not have to go through a custom parts guy to have a great brake system. 99% of the guys on this site are on a budget or just too damn cheap to drop $500 on just the rotors when the whole setup can be made for that, and a lot of guys bitch at that price too.

Trust me, I HATE cutting up brand new, perfectly good parts but I did what I felt I needed to do to get where I wanted to be, and I'm there, and way under budget. It's a win-win for me. I had ARP studs in my old hubs and now they're sitting there on the bench, but I wanted to do this on a budget so I passed on them for my own car. I've had great success with the MM studs so I kept them.

S10, Cutlass, Monte Carlo, F-bodies...ALL the same front rotors. Only difference is that you may have a hub with an ABS ring in it (S10).

I've had no trouble with the hubs at all, save cracking 2 early on when I was still new at this and pressed the studs in wrong. I wouldn't hesitate a bit to run these hubs and I've proven they work for over a year now, and the 1LEs are even stronger than the standard hubs. The good thing about the C4s is that you can go a bit larger diameter than the LS1 hub since it doesn't have to sit down in that hole the LS1 rotors have. And a professional machinist came up with the idea and it's still used on Wilwood setups that are very popular, so I can trust them.

I appreciate all the input fellas, and I"m sure others do also.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I drove the car into work tonight and it feels great! Still wearing them in slowly and taking it easy but WOW they feel nice. I checked the car out after I got here and I didn't see any signs of rubbing on the fenders or my front chin spoiler even with the front wheels up there, running a rear wheel would give you just a bit more room.

Highly recommended brake setup!!


Ed

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Hey Ed I saw the pics you posted earlier, but how about one going down the side of the car so we can see how far the wheels are moved out. I doubt it will be that noticeable, how far did they move from stock anyway? I know it is .317" for the new hub, but how thick is the rotor?

91Z28-350

It's about 5/8" per side, IIRC.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I have the before pic and I did take a pic of it when I dropped it back down on the ramps but that's not a good shot as the tires were binding up as the suspension sat back down and they didn't come back out to normal until I rolled it down the ramps and got it back on the ground, but by that time I had put the camera away. I will get a shot of it when I get home in the AM. But you're right, it wasn't much at all. It brought the tires right out to be pretty much even with the fender lip, and it looks nice.

Yeah, overall about 5/8" per side. The rotor hat is .300" thick, then add the .318" for the 1LE hub and you get .618"... 5/8"= .625"


Ed

Justins86bird

So the 12" C4 and 13" C4 brackets are the same except for thickness?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yes. 12" C4s need a 3/8" bracket, the HDs (the way I did them) need a 1/2" thick bracket.

Ed

Justins86bird

So the bolt are spaced the same? What takes into account the rotor's .5" radius increase, the caliper carriers?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yes, the HD carriers are taller, so to speak. The bolt holes are spaced out another half and inch. I thought I would have to make a whole new bracket for this setup but was very pleased when I found that the brackets already made up for the added rotor diameter. I thought I had a pic of the carriers side by side but I don't, at least not on this computer and the only HD carriers I have are on my car.


Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

This is the before pic, C4 standard brakes installed:

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Another before pic, this time with the level a bit more vertical. It just hangs on the underside of the fender lip. I'll get the after pic later on today...I gotta get some sleep...

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

OK, now the after shots. Down the side of the car:

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Now with the level. There's a small 1/4" or less gap now, so add that to the amount that was under the fender lip in the before pic and I'll guess 1/2" more outward now.

Ed

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

Ed, looks good man. Maybe something I need to do this summer!!!!

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

That doesn't look too bad, I see why you would want to toss a rear tire on there. But it looks like your camber could use some adjusting... based on what your level says!!

Eightyninef

Ed Miller.... few things.
you need some negative camber !!!!

the fender rubbing thing is a built in factory feature.. and I'm not kidding. my ALL STOCK 89 rubs. the factory put out a service buliten on the rubbing problem. Their solution was a heat gun to re-shape the fender liners... I have the service buliten somewhere. in 1990 or 91 they moved the fender liner behind the metal fender part, where in 89 the liner is in front. it's hard to explain.

the caliper pins are a Royal PITA. those little E-clips suck.. I drilled out my C4 caliper pins, and used speed clips. like cotter pins, but reuseable. I forget the real name of the clips, but they slide in and out... available in the help section.

otherwise you should just buy a C4 !!!!

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the input, guys. Checkin up on us 3rd genners, Larry??

That level isn't straight up and down, it's at an angle compared to the ground, maybe a 60* up angle, so I don't feel it giving a true representation of what the wheel is really doing. I need to read up on alignment stuff...by negative camber, it needs to lean in toward the engine, right?

Larry, I totally understand the liner thing...my '88 and '91 are totally different up there. I'd like to see a pic of those pins you were talking about. I rarely get up there to the brakes much but I know what a bad clips feels like to try to get out. All my stuff is pretty good though.

I'll take it by and have the alignment checked. Last time I had it done was last year (about this time actually) when I put the 12" C4s on.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Just for clarification, at this time these brakes will NOT fit in a GTA wheel due to it's offset. I will be working with Mongoose to try and come up with some way to get the GTA wheels to work. I also ran into a problem with the GTA wheels and the LS1 big brakes.


FYI...Ed

drain89

iTrader: (10)

Did you try both the front and rear GTA rims?

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Do you mean that the caliper hits the back of the crosslace part of the rim, the the outside face of the caliper? Or is there contact on the top of the caliper?

drain89

iTrader: (10)

I would like to know this too, as I have considered GTA rims due to how light they are. I was wondering if I could run 4 rear ones or switch front to rear.
The other rims I've considered (if I don't go to 17's) are the 2001-up 16x8 ZQ8 S10/S15 wheels. They are SUPPOSEDLY the same dimensions as the 91-92 Z28 wheels, so I don't think they'd be a problem.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

are you thinking about producing these? i'm interested now but will have the money in the future, but it sounds like an awesome brake package. My 88 is getting the best that i can buy and this seems like it would be the best. As far as the rears go i'll probably end up doing the ls1 swap