Alright guys simple, which is better, turbo or a supercharger?

Which is cheaper?

Are there any turbo kits made for Thirdgens? I know there are superchargers, but what about turbos.



Thanks,
Shane

 

This subjects been beaten worse than a red-headed step child.

A search will give you more info than you care to know. BW

 

Cheaper.....Better....? I don't think those 2 words should ever be in the same sentance. JMO

 

they wern't in the same sentence, they wennt even in the same paragraph.



Shane

 

ok speaking from just reading few post on each and a little knowledge...a turbo will cost more to run...im sure they make kits for third gens but u gotta do a lot of fabricating on a non turbo car to make it work...

now superchargers which i would go with...cheaper and u can still get plenty of power from em...

With turbos u can get turbo lag but i think its not really that noticeable based on new technology that makes it almost unoticeable

Ya my info prolly isant the greatest to take but i thoughtd id reply anyway...do a search ull learn lots

 

well i always thouhg that superchargers were better simply becuase you can get more PSI with them and the power surge is instantanious. Has this now changed or something?




Shane

 

Ok, semantics. How about they shouldn't be in the same post.

There has been a ton of posts on this but i will put my $.02 as I have both. I like my blower car on the street as the power is more predictable with no lag so it is a little more controlable. The only drawback is it is loud, I am not sneaking up on anybody. I run 9lbs on my blower and 20lbs on my turbo. Boost is just a matter of your combo and what you want to run. Although if you run high boost on a blower you will need a cog belt setup. Engines are built the same.

 

Hey Bob.. Cruising over here a bit? <G> I hope maliburacing gets the forums sorted out, I'm halfway thru buying some parts, and the addy I need to send my money too is stranded in PM's...

How loud is loud? The twins are "real" loud. You can hear me several streets over under boost...

BW

 

As a former turbo systems fabricator and engineer, I am currently running a Vortech supercharger on my 4ht gen. Why?

Turbos have the POTENTIAL for making more power, because they require less power to drive (most exhaust energy is wasted out the tailpipe, and the supercharger is driven off of the crankshaft, it requires more power to drive than a turbo, given the same potential boost)

But turbos are very finickey (sp?) cantankerous things because they are not just load and RPM, but flow sensitive. It's very difficult to program your engine control systems to a bolt on turbo system, and have it run decent. Any variables throw the whole thing off into left field, requiring re-engineering the plumbing to make it happy, if you can make it happy. If you buy a bolt on kit, you will have to run EXACTLY the combination that it was developed with, right down to the tire sizes, muffler types, gearing, converter, etc, to get it to run well.

Supercharger kits will always spin a certain RPM and deliver a certain boost at a certain engine RPM. They now use very nicely designed impellers that leave the car virtually stock-feeling at low rpm and they become animals as the revs rise. They are not sensitive to gearing and back pressure or wave dynamics. You can make other changes to the car, and it will usually not make problems. They are reliable, and have a nice smooth powerband no matter what you do.

If you want to be cheap, buy a Toyota Corolla, and run away from any kind of power adder. Anytime you decide to bolt another 125-150 HP onto your otherwise stock engine, BOOM is not cheap!

Good luck
Troy
So Cal

 

yeah i'm looking into a 14psi ATI Procharger that'll give my stock 305(heoretically) 375HP. Which is way above my quota. All i wanted was 325rwhp. But thats plenty for me.....




Shane

 

I cruise all over, like you . Did malibu run out of bandwith?? It sucks that your in limbo, but I'm sure it will work out. Anyway It is LOUD when I get after it. between the belt, the blower, the 3"flowmasters and a x pipe. I have a 4/7 swap in it so it also has a different exhaust note. Like I said, I am not sneaking up on anybody with it. And just wait till i put the cog belt setup on i'm making with 14lbs of boost!

 

yeah how do saturn5's superchargers work. They look like they act as cylender heads. The pics of the engine bay on his site wern't working so i couldn't see very well.



Shane

 

hey saturn have you dynoed it yet? what kinda numbers?





Shane

 

I'm rearranging my site.. so most of its all wonky.

I finally toasted the 305 late summer, just getting a replacement together now. Some changes from last year.. TBA.

[img]
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/att...postid=1382894[/img]

[img]
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/att...postid=1382892[/img]

some old pics.. BW

 

cool i remember you saying you were wating for the 305 to blow up. Bakc then i thouhg yuo meant the engine blow up the car, but now i get what ya meant. I came a long way since then, fast learner.




Shane

 

Not exactly sure what class it is in, but I'm sure it's in quite a few. But turbo cars are limited to size of turbo compared to a supercharger (not really that big of a difference, but basically a smaller turbo) and also cubes are restricted for turbo cars. Why is this, because turbo's will out perform superchargers.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they also have a class where turbo's cant even be run. I dont keep up much on this kind of racing, but this always comes up when this debate comes up.

By the way, PTK challenged procharger and vortech for 5,000$. Check out PTK's website.

Superchargers have so much money wrapped up in mags and racing, thats the only reason why they are ran...

 

I think you may want to look a little deeper than that. Both have pro's and con's. For the street a blower is way easier to package on a V8 and you can bolt one on without changing your exhaust system. I would have to believe that these are the reasons they are more popular. How many V8 turbo kits can you bolt on in a afternoon with basic tools for the same money and get the same performance?

 

Supercharger is my preferance. Less cost , easy to install , looks better , roots type do not tap oil pan or coke oil , boost comes in quicker and makes driving around the block much funner and a roots blower like mine made by FAGEOL is very effecient. Extruded billet case with billet rotors. You can put you hand on the case while it is running.

Get in where you fit in but once you look at the overall experiance( easy to change plugs , not cramped , install , the look, the instant boost, etc , you will see why screw or roots superchargers are prefered by many.

 

I was referring to track usage. The street is a different story. Although if you build an engine around your turbo, you will not experience too much turbo lag or any other downfalls you guys can come up with.

Explain to me how my buddy went 10.90's for less then 2,000$ in mods? You think he could do that with a supercharger on an almost stock longblock?

I dont mind supercharges, I just like turbo's much better. Not much beats full boost on the line with a glide.

By the way, summit is now selling turbonetics turbo's, SC's will not be the only choice for too much longer.

 

Turbo all the way for me.

I hear a lot of people say the superchargers will give instant boost, which is partially correct, but superchargers also give proportional boost. For instance, at 6000rpm you may have 6psi of boost, but at 3000rpm only 3psi. A turbo may have a 'lag', but once it spools the boost comes in faster. When you punch the throttle at 2000rpm, the boost may take a split second to come on, but by 2500 rpm you have all 6psi boost and keep it right up to redline (I'm making a genaeralization here- I'm just using these numbers to make my point). Superchargers need the R's to get their boost, turbos just need throttle!

Superchargers will usually be cheaper, but if you can do serious fabrication yourself, a JY (junk yard) turbo set-up can also be economical. I also think a good turbo system looks a lot nicer (higher tech) than a supercharger. But a turbo will certainly require more work on the installers part (more fabricating, more tuning, etc). A supercharger you can buy and bolt- fairly simple.

I have driven many SC and turbo cars- the sling-shot feel of a turbo is unlike any other. All variables being equal, a turbo car will win from a performance stand point.

If you check on this power adder forum, you will see a thread about a comparo done recently in Hot Rod Magazine. I found the power graphs really show the winner, plus it makes my point about how the turbo power comes in at low R's.

 

Yeah I agree with agove. If you had the skills to fab everything up yourself, you'd have to be dumb or just plain lazy not to make a junk yard turbo setup over a supercharger.

Turbo = 600$ brand new 550+rwhp potential

Intercooler = 0$ - 1000$ or more Again if you have the fab skills you can make your own for very cheap, probably in the 100$ range

Piping = 200$ very rough guesstimate, depends on how well your setup is, maybe some shorter headers to flip around so probably a little more

Safety = Guages and other stuff, maybe 200$

Then convert your carb to blow thru setup, and bam, 1200$ and a few weekends later you have the power potential to ruin your entire drive train in a 3rd gen.

Or you could go real junkyard, spend a couple hundred bucks on some used T3's and be well in the 400+rwhp range with these.

Tons of choices, hardest part is having the skills/tools to do these jobs.

 

I like superchargers. I don't like the lag of turbos. Superchargers are easier to install and more predictable. They also sound very good. I don't want to sneek up on people, I want them to be afraid.

 

There are strong points to both sides, but I shall have to side with the big roots type blowers. When I see NHRA top fuel running turbos, I'll have to look deeper into this.

 

good point.

 

Turbos have that whissle sound from the bov.

 

alot of misinformed people here.

 

I agree, The mods should put this post to sleep.

 

If one more freaking person brings up lag on a turbo they need to be shot. Get your pathetic butt out of the stock longblock 4 banger honda with a t76 and maybe then you will realize not everyone is as dumb as they are by thinking a bigger turbo is better.

Compressor MAPS do wonders....

 

[QUOTE]If one more freaking person brings up lag on a turbo they need to be shot. Get your pathetic butt out of the stock longblock 4 banger honda with a t76 and maybe then you will realize not everyone is as dumb as they are by thinking a bigger turbo is better. [QUOTE] .

Everyone has their own opinion... I'm not out here bashing yours... For your info I have never been in a 4 banner pos. Imports suck and I refuse to ride in one.

 

This is my turbo riding experience, while it is very limited, compared to you guys I'm a vet.

DSM, front wheel drive, forget turbo, but manual boost controller and a turbo much too big for the setup. Anywho, this is the only care Ive ever experienced lag in. It'd be a regular car then you'd hit boost and be gone, but as said, his setup was not "setup" very well.

DSM awd. Stock turbo, bumped boost. I was in back seat, and he dropped the clutch from like 5k or so. Thing just took off, couldnt see gauge but didnt need to, there wasnt any lag.

My Shelby CSX-T. I would get on this thing from a stop, and although it was a very very dinky turbo I hit 9lbs before you even looked at the gauge/tach.

My buddies Shelby. He was running around 14psi or so. This thing didnt really seem to lag much either, I never drove it so I could stare at the boost gauge, it'd climb very fast though.

Twin turbo 5.0. He would launch pretty much off idle and the torque these 5.0's make by themselves was enough to smoke the street tires anyways. Hardly ever out of boost, when 3rd gear came he started to hook. Trapped around 120 I belive with 6lbs of boost.

Out of those cars, I think I have a grasp on turbo lag. v8s, 4 cylinders and all. Once you step it up to the huge singles, these people are not like your average supra owner (huge single, dyno queen ;() and race from a roll on the highway.

I dont have all the answers as I am still learning, and on this site to learn. But people that sit here and post about turbo lag need to shut up. Its people like this who have never been in a turbo or SC car yet have their own opinions from either there biased opinions or some rigged up dyno sheets.

 

Turbo lag is do to over sized turbos that cant be powered effeciently by the exhaust gases. The ball-bering turbos help with turbo lag. Factory installed turbos are going to have the least turbo lag because the people creating the setup know what they are doing.


P.S. "Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems"
by Corky Bell

 

of course it took off like a bat outtahell, it already had enough gasses runnin through it for spooling. DSM's are fast, but they still have a bit of lag. As do stock supras, as does every other car I've ridden in with a turbo. In my experience, turbos have lag but make up for it in sheer speed. That is if its all set up right.

 

i have heard of some people in tractor pulling races have the blow off valve hooked up to the exhaust manifold to keep the turbos spooled. This is word of mouth so dont quote me on it.

 

There are those that disagree with Mr. Bell's theory.. BW

 

like who? i would like to read some of there books.

 

Various unknown authors in history.. Check out some of the NACA papers regarding supercharging/turbocharging of WWII aircraft.

 

i'll check them out.